Phil Maguire-migration

You're quite right, Zonker. I was remiss not mentioning Warren. That was very silly of me, really, because their series "Dracula" is a treasure of my collection. It never occured to me until you just pointed it out that it must have been so galling to work for Warren and then go to somewhere as tame and restrained as Marvel or DC. A good point, well made

Will I get burned at the stake for suggesting that it started to go downhill with the introduction of Timber Wolf - sorry, Wolverine? But the one that stopped me collecting comics entirely was X-Men 110. It was awful in every respect. I re-read it again sometime later and realised that I had only bought this to keep up my collection. So at that point, I stopped collecting and just bought things that took my fancy. And I didn't buy more X-Men after that. However, I enjoy Xcalibur (despite Nightcrawler spending the entire series trying to steal Captain Britain's girlfriend) and I thought "The House of M" was an interesting storyline.

Great thread and some interesting points but can I put the cat amongs the pidgeons by suggesting that the first title of the BA was Zap Comix 1 released in 1968. It was a game changer because it introduced two new things to comics: 1. Artistic freedom of expression. It changed comics from a purely commercial product into a vehicle for the artist.It turned artists into visionaries who could offer different worlds for people to enjoy. I don't think it's a coincidence that the BA happens at the same time that graffiti started to become more expressive. You see all the things you mentioned are true (more "adult" themes, etc) but they are only the symptoms not the cause. The BA came about because artists suddenly had freedom of opportunity. If they didn't like the way Marvel and DC were doing things, they could go elsewhere or even set up their own comic - and in those other comics, they could depict drugs and sex and political hypocrisy and most importantly, death. I liken it to the collapse of the studio system in Hollywood where filmmakers and actors were suddenly free to choose what projects they did and what genres they pursued rather than being typecast and processed by the big studios. What happened with Marvel and DC is that they were actually play catch-up with what the writers and artists were already doing without them 2. Honesty. I remember the first time I came across an underground comic. It was my one and only major convention in London and it was a horrible little thing. The main character had died, become a zombie and no one noticed as he went about his "life" slowly rotting. I vividly remember a section where a prostitute picks him up, mistakes his intestine for his and "pleasures" herself with it while he got bored and left, trailing his guts behind him. But I got a buzz out holding this thing. It was like I was holding an electric eel. This vile thing had something that most of Marvel and DC lacked - honesty. It was a "Warts An' All" expression of one's person's honest opinion. It was like a Francis Bacon painting - ugly and beautiful at the same time. It's a buzz I still get when I see someone pursuing their vision in comics although it happens a lot less nowadays. As for the end of the BA, that happened when comics became formulaic or rather when the two big companies thought they understood this new "Honesty" thing and just incorporated it into their existing formula. Again, when that actually happened is hard to say but I know it was all over by Watchmen. The old fashion boy scouts had been deposed in preference to more modern "real" heroes who were every bit as stereotyped and 2 dimensional as the heroes they "replaced" Of course, I do understand that it's a bit like trying to decide who the first punk rock band was.