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Vger7

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Everything posted by Vger7

  1. Hmmm... this is interesting. It guess this means it's time to stock up on Micronauts, ROM and GI Joe books!
  2. I can't decide between Kraven and the Scorpion.
  3. I picked up a Hulk #181 from David and he was... • accommodating • communicated well • book arrived in the timely manner • packaged the book well • item was as described Five stars all the way... Thanks David!
  4. Maybe once the Baby Boomers are gone... but by then, I'll wont need my copies anymore while I'm relaxing in the dirt. The same could be said about Diamonds but people still kill for it. It's not rare or useful... All manipulated by De Beers as the ultimate symbol of love, marriage and status. To me, its the greatest pet rock ever. It just goes to show you: And that's all I'm saying...
  5. rfoiii... the deeper question you might want to contemplate is: Is the popularity of Deadpool the result of society, or is society the result of Deadpool (or the like)? What leads what?
  6. It's about how the Deadpool bubble will pop because society lacks depth. I argue that Deadpool will continue... because society lacks depth
  7. You clearly haven't read Deadpool if you cannot tell the difference between his one-dimensional nature and that of characters with depth and breadth. Deadpool is about making violent and sexually suggestive jokes - that is everything he is. Nothing has ever been added to his character and writer after writer continue to push the same cheap inappropriate laughs that won't last forever. Deadpool is his own baby hand pleasuring himself - moderately humorous now, definitely not the stuff worth remembering long-term. Harley is the same way - she is a submissive, BDSM laced, supporting character that is loved for her looks and sexual innuendo. If it wasn't for female cosplay (and the dichotomy of "look but don't touch" combined with the misogyny of comic culture) she wouldn't even exist anymore. Only recently has anything of substance been written outside of that. However, she is easily replaceable at current - like all sex symbols they come and go with the tide. Your right... I haven't read a single Deadpool book. But I also don't listen to new music or follow current trends... because the whole cultural world has become void of depth. Look at the current art world and what is being passed off as "art". Look at Hollywood movies... it's ALL violent and sexually suggestive. I can't even watch DC animation with my kids because it's sooo bloody violent for a cartoon. As for misogyny... this has been around since the dawn of man. It's in our advertising, it's in our entertainment, it's in our music, movies, apparel, products and even the food we eat. The issues you cite against Deadpool are Harley are the changing times my friend. I'm old, closing in on 50. I worry for my children and I have deep concerns about the world they will grow up in. Case in point, have you taken a peak at the current trends in pornography lately? Imagine, billions of young kids watching young girls getting abused in what can only be described as consensual rape... all available at the click of a button. What do these images do to a society en masse over an extended period of time? And that's just the tip of the iceberg. So, while I don't disagree with you on your opinion about Deadpool... like it or not... as an investment, I'm inclined to believe that the value will hold. My evidence is the larger social trends and shifting demographics that keep characters like Deadpool and Harley propped up. How do you stop such massive forces of change? I openly admit that I don't get the appeal. I'm not a fan of Deadpool and I'm one of the few people who didn't like his movie, nor do I buy his books. So, I say this from purely an objective, analytical perspective. Is Deadpool a pyramid scheme or a game of hot potato. Damn right it is. But again, so is all of comics and other forms of investment. In fact, wealth itself is a pyramid scheme as banks continue to lend out money based on their gold reserve (or lack there of, to be more accurate). Cash is nothing but a I.O.U. which is why it's referred to as a "bank note". What amazes me is that banks are allowed to lend out money that they don't have. Imagine if I did that... they'd lock me up. Legalized crime... acceptable because it's supported by the government, who in turn is supported by corporations... ie; the banks. CRAZY right? Or why does the government continue to borrow from the banks and not the reserve? This way, even if they are charged ridiculous amounts of interests, at lease it all goes back to the people... and not into the pockets of Goldman Sachs. I digress (don't get me started on Goldman Sachs). None of this makes sense and a time of reckoning is in our future. The rise of Deadpool is symptomatic of the larger issues but in the mean time... Hey! Let the comic party continue, because who cares about all that other stuff. It's a “downer” man, and people just wanna have fun.
  8. "Long-term success ultimately is driven by a character's abilitity to resonate with generations of children and find sufficient space in the hearts and minds for nostalgia to fill in adulthood. This requires well-rounded, stand-alone characters that can be written over multiple generations and remain relevant. Good examples are Spider-Man and more recently Wolverine." This says nothing about why Deadpool can't or doesn't resonate. “His long term success in movies is also unproven as his character (beyond his origin story) largely depends on the ability to be increasingly inappropriate and vulgar with his co-stars. If you read his comics all he does is break the 4th wall, be violent and make sexual/violent references towards the others. It will be difficult to keep this schtick fresh and still build a brand without denigrating the superhero co-stars to a point where they become parodies of themselves and no longer bankable. The used two throw-away stars in his first movie, there isn't an endless list of these and there is only so much believability in that type of rinse and repeat approach. Marvel certainly isn't going to let him drink grade their premium A listers. Everybody is doing backflips over a one-trick pony. He just doesn't have any depth or breadth to bridge generations once his extreme form of humor is no longer core to pop culture.” The same could be about for Wolverine. Much like Deadpool, Wolverine was not popular right out of the gates (remember everyone thought Cable would be the big book?). After Wolverine joined the X-Men, it was his dark, brooding attitude that made him a star. After all these years, the "dark" concept in comics is still entrenched. Despite being over used, over played... Wolverine still remains popular and this is reflected in the 8000+ copies of Hulk#181. 20 years later, people are more cynical, cautious and feel let down by their employers, government, etc. (Nielsen report, 2006). Many of us are tired of Wolverine, but we still recognize the importance of his 1st appearance. Enter sarcasm, humor (please, can we all stop saying 4th wall... it's becoming another one of those cliches) and suddenly it hits home with the current audience. Marve and DC have another hit with Deadpool and Harley. Will they ever be big as Wolverine, maybe, maybe not... but they are on their way... and they are big enough as is for their 1st appearances to have value. They reflect the new cultural mindset. If this doesn't make them relevant... what does? How are they any different than what Wolverine did for his generation?
  9. You are easily offended. You ought to learn how to have a discussion without having an emotional reaction. You are quick to accuse people of "mocking" (and Roy's not even the mocking type), but get offended when someone responds the same way to your mocking comments and memes, wondering out loud why people aren't getting your "joke." Do you have any proof of this? Because it's contrary to the way the market works. This is nothing new, and not confined to New Mutants #98. People overstate the things they are selling, and have since trading began. There are a couple of hundred copies of New Mutants #98 for sale on eBay right now, with several more hundred recently sold. Even the most cursory glance will tell even the freshest novice that this isn't rare. It isn't 1991 anymore, and buyers aren't confined to information from a few dealers. The internet changed everything. While it's true that there are some ignorant consumers out there who don't pay attention and will believe anything they're told, that's not true of the majority of people. People naturally look to their own interests, so they're not going to be spending hundreds of dollars on anything without doing even a modicum of research about it first. The internet changed everything. Well said! Nobody I know is deluded enough to think Deapool is a rare book, but they keep buying. Insanity does not justify its meausre but investors want high yield and they can't deny the performance of NM#98. Yes it could all end tomorrow, but so could any other book. That's why it's called speculating.
  10. I actually did mix you up because I was fairly certain that earlier on in another discussion you discredited dealer's input completely because you felt that they were biased and therefore not trustworthy. I think it was the Hulk #1 discussions last year. So what if dealers price their books at GPA or eBay auctions. I still don't understand why you feel that is a negative thing? Fair enough. And my response to that was, I'd love to see price averages in all grades pre and post Feb 12th. Non-educated buyers have so much more information at their fingertips than I did when I stepped back in the water after a blackout in the 90's. I got back in just as CGC was starting, eBay was still relatively new and the census wasn't established. It's only in towards the end of the last decade that I realized that I could literally 'Google' anything for an answer. Youngin's were doing it but I wasn't and I always though to myself 'dayum, that was a quick response by that board member - how did he know that?' Now we are living in an age where literally every - no, any piece of information you want is searchable, and young people (in their 30's and younger - boy I'm showing my age when I consider 30 young) know this. The facade is fading fast. Sure there are going to be information or market dynamic knowledge gaps out there, but just as you have dishonest business practices, you are also going to have fair dealers who don't rip people off. I could have held out for $900 to the buyer in Singapore but I didn't. I sold for below GPA average. It's gotta be just a lack of chemistry between us. I get that with some people. I wasn't really arguing with you as much as trying to paint a side to the picture that your numbers weren't showing. Maybe "argue" was a strong term, I understand you are just providing a different perspective. I disagree with the assumption that because it is the Internet age, all data is available and buyers are informed. It is true in part of course, but the information in is hobby isn't as easy to obtain as it is being insinuated. I wasn't passing judgement on dealer prices, but rather that I could only offer up my own experience to that portion of the sales and prices. I meant it also as an end state of negotiation, not usually the starting listed prices (which are almost certainly marked up - common dynamic in shows). I guess where I am at is I understand how popular Deadpool is and why people are seeking the book but I also see the reality of the character, understand what is necessary for long-term success (and why he doesn't meet the criteria) and have data to support a massive bubble being created around demand and factionalized supply. My posts are aimed at ensuring readers don't buy this book with the assumption it is going to hold its current value or grow into perpetuity. Again, it isn't going to crash tomorrow, but eventually it will be outed as the poster-child of modern speculation driving artificial inflation. Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but I'd like to understand why you've singled out Deadpool considering there are so many other books that are crashing even as we type. What you say about Deadpool could be extrapolated to include the industry as a whole since comics have no intrinsic value. But since you've invested so much time and effort into your post... I'll bite: What exactly is the criteria for long-term success? And please don't say rarity since I've already debunked this over used theory. Many other books with Deadpool numbers still going strong and many rare turds remain a turd.
  11. Yes... exactly my point. It's too early to declare Deadpool or Walking Dead is gonna tank. Star Trek was cancelled after just 3 seasons but came back years later. What season are we at with Walking Dead...? Everytime historical precedence is referenced... the conversation suddenly shifts toward apples, bannanas and avacados. Fruit fixation aside, it is possible for new ideas to stick. And if the naysayers can at least agree up to that point, why not Deadpool or Walking Dead? The original conversation was around NM98 and its value (i.e. when the bubble will pop or not). If you extend the conversation does that character have the ability (like Star Trek) to stick around. My thought would be probably not with Deadpool given the reasons I stated above. If you are talking Walking Dead my answer would be "potentially." However, this also doesn't necessarily mean WD 1 will always be >$1,500 book (different discussion for a different thread). The reason the "fruit" argument keeps being put forward is because you (and others) keep shifting the conversation around the original intent to garner support around a loosely formed: "what if" scenario or "its popular so why not" scenario. Comparing moderately popular and relatively recently created characters/series to the time-tested huge success stories of the hobby isn't a strong argument because of a "they did it, so why not" argument. Particularly when there isn't anything connecting the two other than their delivered medium (TV show or comic). :shrug: Your position is completely garnered in hope. Which is fine for a collector, bad for an investor (which is what the thread is mostly about discussing). Again, no argument here. That's why it's call "speculation". It's all based on "hope". I'm hoping it continues to rise and you're hoping that it falls. Even if your logic was more sound, popular taste doesn't follow logic. The main difference between you and I is that I recognize that it could go either way. Unless you've got some sort of magic crystal ball, it's all just a guess. Might as well flip a coin...
  12. Yes... exactly my point. It's too early to declare Deadpool or Walking Dead is gonna tank. Star Trek was cancelled after just 3 seasons but came back years later. What season are we at with Walking Dead...? Everytime historical precedence is referenced... the conversation suddenly shifts toward apples, bannanas and avacados. Fruit fixation aside, it is possible for new ideas to stick. And if the naysayers can at least agree up to that point, why not Deadpool or Walking Dead?
  13. No Star Trek shows on TV right now but Star Trek #1 is still worth a bit of money. After a show gets cancelled, it could always come back or if it takes on a iconic status, the "brand" may live on in merchandising... including comics. A big factor in favor of Deadpool and Harley is "relevance". Younger people don't necessarily want to read about their Dad's heroes. Deadpool and Harley is the comedic relief for Marvel and DC. As long as their sensibilities continue to connect with their audience, they'll continue to live on. The "new" is built on top of fertile soils of the "old".
  14. I agree. There is nothing that I love on the cover! For me, its really just a book to flip I used to feel that way, but after flipping a few copies I started to look at it more closely....... and I've actually started to like it.... especially the color scheme. If one were to hypothetically chart it's future growth, comparisons to IH 181's performance would probably not be a good parallel, however. A better choice might be FF 48, due to it's availability. Personally, too much focus on a book's "potential" is fatiguing to me. I also try to avoid denigrating the material that others love.... but rather prefer to celebrate the joy that this hobby can bring to each of us..... call me a sap. Let a brotha' love what he will ..... I mean, what difference does it really make whether it was astute or a stupid ? If it makes one happy and doesn't jeopardize those one loves Fill a short box full of them if you can .... GOD BLESS... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) I'm all for loving these books but investments should be made with the mind, not the heart. Putting money into something just out of love is a recipe for financial disaster.
  15. All valid points, but I think you could make the same argument for many other books. Going back to my example of Hulk#181 1. Price manipulation... YES. I myself are hoarding several Hulk #181’s as I am NM #98’s. Check. 2. GPA. Hulk #181’s seems to also have leveled out since last November at most grades. Check. 3. Popularity. I'd say Wolverine is way over saturated. He's been on every team, tons of mini series and pretty much everyone on the street know of him. Still, the Hulk #181 is one of the most frequently traded books and pretty close to Deadpool numbers on the census. 4. Agreed. The average kid can't afford a decent copy of NM#98 or Hulk#181. The people hoarding and flipping these are probably people like me. Just old enough to have saved enough money, but young enough to have an appreciation. Still, the buyers and sellers seem to have singled out NM#98 so it's hard to discount that Deadpool does have some kind of mass appeal. Otherwise, why not Gambit, Cable or Bishop from the same era. 5. Agreed. DC and Marvel basically cater to people like me who are nostalgic about comics. New comics in Toronto are over $5. What kid, whose parents aren't wealthy lawyers can afford this price tag. Also, the stories are geared toward adults, because again, we're the audience. DC and Marvel don't have a succession plan. Considering macro trends like the decline of print, flat salaries, iPads, video games, higher cost of production, higher cost of paper, lower birth rate, people reading less... I'm not sure that a succession plan even exists. So the publishers have no choice but to rely on gimmicks in order to survive. I'm pretty much in agreement with you except that I don't see how Hulk #181 is any different then NM #98 from an investment point of view. Sometimes the hype can be self fulfilling. Many people want a Hulk #181 just for the sake of owning one and I see this happening with Deadpool. I think we are in another speculation bubble. Comics have never been this good since the 1980’s. Because of the movies, every peripheral collector is jumping on the band wagon. They all want high yield so they've pumped up junk keys from the dollar bins. If and when the market tumbles, it wont be because of just Deadpool. It will be people trying to cash in on Nightwing, Cyborg and all those variants... etc. en masse. If that sounds familiar, that's because its all happened before. Can't believe FF#52 is outpacing FF#48 these days. Nothing wrong with Black Panther... but to high, to quick. All you and I are doing is forecasting the weather based on todays trends. We'll have to see how it all pans out. Good discussion, and good luck.
  16. 130,000 people attended SDCC last year. That's a small percentage of all con-goers traveling to various hometown cons year round. Is 9500 copies a lot, in relation to other books that are on the census? Yeah. Can you really say it's a lot when considering how many people are into comic collecting, whether fringe collectors or serious? I don't think so. Your example isn't logically sound. It is a lot. Realistically it is a hugely massive number of CGC copies (not to mention it has been substantiated that there are over 200,000 surviving copies in total). Many of which are in individuals collections being slabbed and/or sold raw a copy at a time to maximize profits (there are numerous testimonies of long boxes full of this comic all over the place). This means that the supply is being purposefully limited to manage demand and increase/maintain market pricing. It is hard to say what will happen once the majority of copies are actually in the traded market. To your point, not every person who attends comic con or a "pop-culture" fan is a Deadpool fan, nor is every person who attends these (even if they are a Deadpool fan) looking for a copy of NM98. Very few people (and I do mean very few) actually have enough money for a $750+ comic book - it seems like otherwise on here but economically speaking that is a large amount of money to >70% of the population of the US and >90% of the population of the world. That said, based on market dynamics, there is enough demand at current to sustain pricing. There is no practical way to determine how many copies are owned by dealers, speculators, profiteers, collectors or other (i.e. the distribution of who owns these books is important as owners other than comic dealers and collectors are the only ones who would own the book outside of the ability to make large profits - meaning speculators/profiteers/casual dealer/flipper/etc will dump the book in market the second prices start to fall below their target investment level). While there are popular movies being produced all of these people will continue buying/selling the book, but once the media train stops (and it will, it may be 10-20 years from now but it will) all that will be left are dealers and collectors. When you combine that action with the true supply hitting the market, we will then see if the demand still outpaces supply. Which really is the point here, many people are buying this book assuming that the current run-up in pricing indicates that it is a solid "investment" long-term and that huge gains are still possible. This is a very risky assumption given the points above - and pause for consideration. At current the NM98 market is still in its infancy and there is a lot still to happen that will determine its long-term value beyond the soap-box preachers touting the movie popularity. You guys are missing my point. No one is saying that 9500 books isn't a lot but it's relative to the demand. A rare book that no body wants is basically worthless. My evidence is the Hulk #181 with 8000 books on record, which is also a lot of books, and yet, it is considered to be the BA grail. By this example, why can't NM #98 be the new modern grail? Also, newer collectors have less connection to older books. So as long as the collecting continuum can be maintained, I'd rather bank on the NM#98 over some old book that only an aging baby boomer can appreciate. Because once the baby boomers are gone, who's gonna pick up those platinum books? I am not missing your point. You are just mixing apples and oranges while talking bananas. - Nothing is valuable forever (all things go in and out of popularity). - When you compare something there are always differences and you tend to choose the ones to prove your point and don't truly factor in all related circumstances (in this instance you use IH181 and Platinum era books - both of which are very different). - You cited a small portion of semi-relevant data and are jumping to conclusions that aren't wholly supported by the provided data. NM98 might be a modern Grail, but there is far more to the equation that CGCd copies and SDCC attendance numbers. FYI - Baby Boomers have all the money in the country right now and will for another 20 years. Once they go into full fixed income mode the market will undoubtedly change. :shrug: I'm not in disagreement with your point. Obviously the BB are gonna have a great impact on the market and I clearly state that things can change. But all we can do cite the very little data that we have since much of this is anecdotal any ways. With a lack of hard evidence, Isn't that basically what everyone does...? I'm simply trying to offer my perspective, relative to Hulk #181. No, they are NOT the same books, nor is the current collecting climate... all of which is obvious and a given, but it is still a point of reference worth consideration. No body here can predict the future but I think we can still have a discussion. My position is that I don't think that NM #98 is in a "Deadpool" bubble. In fact, GPA shows that this book has leveled out which I think is a good thing. However, there may be an over arching "comic" bubble considering how strong the market has been since 2012. So if the market crashes, all books will probably tumble, including Deadpool... but not because of anything to do with NM #98 specifically. Other than stating the obvious that all fruit is not the same, what's your postion and why? It's easy to knock people down but I'd like to hear you actually try and build something of your own.
  17. 130,000 people attended SDCC last year. That's a small percentage of all con-goers traveling to various hometown cons year round. Is 9500 copies a lot, in relation to other books that are on the census? Yeah. Can you really say it's a lot when considering how many people are into comic collecting, whether fringe collectors or serious? I don't think so. Your example isn't logically sound. It is a lot. Realistically it is a hugely massive number of CGC copies (not to mention it has been substantiated that there are over 200,000 surviving copies in total). Many of which are in individuals collections being slabbed and/or sold raw a copy at a time to maximize profits (there are numerous testimonies of long boxes full of this comic all over the place). This means that the supply is being purposefully limited to manage demand and increase/maintain market pricing. It is hard to say what will happen once the majority of copies are actually in the traded market. To your point, not every person who attends comic con or a "pop-culture" fan is a Deadpool fan, nor is every person who attends these (even if they are a Deadpool fan) looking for a copy of NM98. Very few people (and I do mean very few) actually have enough money for a $750+ comic book - it seems like otherwise on here but economically speaking that is a large amount of money to >70% of the population of the US and >90% of the population of the world. That said, based on market dynamics, there is enough demand at current to sustain pricing. There is no practical way to determine how many copies are owned by dealers, speculators, profiteers, collectors or other (i.e. the distribution of who owns these books is important as owners other than comic dealers and collectors are the only ones who would own the book outside of the ability to make large profits - meaning speculators/profiteers/casual dealer/flipper/etc will dump the book in market the second prices start to fall below their target investment level). While there are popular movies being produced all of these people will continue buying/selling the book, but once the media train stops (and it will, it may be 10-20 years from now but it will) all that will be left are dealers and collectors. When you combine that action with the true supply hitting the market, we will then see if the demand still outpaces supply. Which really is the point here, many people are buying this book assuming that the current run-up in pricing indicates that it is a solid "investment" long-term and that huge gains are still possible. This is a very risky assumption given the points above - and pause for consideration. At current the NM98 market is still in its infancy and there is a lot still to happen that will determine its long-term value beyond the soap-box preachers touting the movie popularity. You guys are missing my point. No one is saying that 9500 books isn't a lot but it's relative to the demand. A rare book that no body wants is basically worthless. My evidence is the Hulk #181 with 8000 books on record, which is also a lot of books, and yet, it is considered to be the BA grail. By this example, why can't NM #98 be the new modern grail? Also, newer collectors have less connection to older books. So as long as the collecting continuum can be maintained, I'd rather bank on the NM#98 over some old book that only an aging baby boomer can appreciate. Because once the baby boomers are gone, who's gonna pick up those platinum books?
  18. Sorry if someone's made this observation already but over 8000 copies of Hulk #181’s on the census vs 9500 copies of NM #98’s. 1500 books is not such a huge gap when talking about multi thousands. Point being, if Hulk #181 is still strong after all these years... why not NM #98’s? Quantity is all relative to demand of course. Deadpool may not be for us old timers but as long as enough younger collectors like him, NM #98 will be the Hulk #181 of the modern era. Tastes can, and probably will change over time but personally, I'd short books like Ms Marvel or She Hulk or Night Wing or Cyborg before Deadpool.
  19. More news here: http://www.denofgeek.us/movies/wolverine/253088/the-wolverine-3-story-and-r-rating-information-confirmed?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_908751