The Shoveler

On 1/12/2018 at 2:19 AM, RabidFerret said:

You sell artwork as a business. Your goal is to sell artwork for your clients. Stop defensively splitting hairs on insignificant things.

As for DS55, I don't follow Golden, but given the lone example on Heritage selling for $10k in 2008, I'd imagine it would be worth quite a bit more today.

So I'm still curious what 30 year old art you've been comparing your artists to on artistic merits only?

Just getting caught up here, Rabid Ferret.  I'm sorry for missing out on this discussion earlier.  In lieu of writing several responses, here's one macro-post.

So far what I see since last night are several continuations of the mis-directions, projections, 'shoot the messenger' type responses, and attempts to turn this into a distributed denial-of-service attack where they demand a reply to each little diversionary claim.

As you've precisely noted above, you know and I know that this is not about a nominally-valued individual comic, independent of its original art pages that already reached $10K ten years ago.  It's not about being excited "as a fan" for a particular artist or group of artists, or using hyperbole among informed, experienced & sophisticated original art fans. And this discussion is not about Sean Murphy (a topic that was already addressed extensively on a separate thread).  It's not about me being somehow obsessed with the potential financial rewards of the hobby, a topic I avoid and seldom-if-ever comment on.  It's not about Felix attempting to claim me as his own private personal troll because it's all about him and if you don't believe me, just ask him.  And it's not even about Felix taking one of my comments and selectively misquoting it, and then tortuously layering on his own convoluted subtext to make it mean whatever Felix wants it to mean. 

Those are just some of the deflections and defensive reactions that have been employed repeatedly here.  Maybe there's more that I missed.  They appear to desperately want to make it about those things.  But it's not.

This is about Felix leaping across a chasm in his sales messages to link his products directly to one of the most successful and influential comic creators of the past 35+ years, the closest thing the industry has to a household name after Stan Lee, and promoting that connection to the broader, and impressionable, public as a sales practice.  A public that includes not just savvy, experienced and well-informed veterans of the hobby.  It also includes people who are new, inexperienced collectors as he's keenly aware of and mentioned before.

Maybe somewhere there's comparative sales data, movie deals, a Frank Miller quote, etc. to justify any of the Miller speculations.  But that certainly wasn't presented to the customers.  It's a giant leap to anoint someone, anyone as the next Miller in a sales-related (not a fan-based) message.

As difficult as it may be for some to understand, there are many people who are vulnerable and susceptible to this exact type of unsubstantiated association and the allure of the tacit potential for big payoffs.  You may deny their existence and you may deny their value and utility as a person, you may even laugh at 'em and call them a bunch of suckers.  But they are there even though you may not see them or care about them.  Their vulnerability to a highly-refined and selective marketing ploy isn't necessarily a character failure solely on their part.  And when a sophisticated marketing pitch is based on connecting products to some of the most highly-valued comic art (Valued at Thousands of Dollars! Tens of Thousands!  Six Figures!!  Wish I bought it 10-20-30 years ago!) from one of the most well-known and impactful comic creators of a generation (and one of the very few to achieve any sort of enduring multi-media successes), then those vulnerable people are not being treated responsibly and respectfully as customers or as human beings.  It gives all the appearance that they are being taken advantage of by an insider who's acting from a position of power who appears to be willing to deliberately drive them towards speculative, unrealistic, and potentially financially harmful decisions.

On 1/11/2018 at 11:54 PM, The Shoveler said:

And when you promote somebody as the next Frank Miller and hype their latest project as being analogous to Miller's most lucrative high-water marks, then you build the cliff and announce how fabulous it would be to take a leap.

When that practice is dismissed with:

On 1/11/2018 at 11:14 PM, Nexus said:

Like I just said earlier, people hear what they want to hear. They'll believe what they want to believe.

...and followed by diversions, evasiveness, misquoting, etc while avoid addressing the specific concerns regarding the sales tactic, then that behavior comes across across as disingenuous at best.

The sales tactic was concerning, his reaction was disappointing in the extreme and seems to confirm the worst possible impressions that were originated by the sales tactic.

I do not know Felix.  I've never met him, I've never talked with him, and I've never sought to purchase from him.  Seeing his conduct here tells me all I need or want to know about him.

2 minutes ago, Nexus said:

it's from the perspective of a fan

A fan who's a dealer that is sending a marketing newsletter hyping the goods as the next Frank Miller product.

Anyway, have a great evening.  It was lovely chatting with you.

3 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Sigh. Show me again where I said anything about future value.

1 hour ago, The Shoveler said:

  10 hours ago, Mr. Machismo said:

  Quote

• Daniel has set himself on the path of becoming a complete comics creator, writing and drawing his own stories. As anyone who has read EXTREMITY can attest, he is excelling at both. The next Frank Miller may actually have nothing to do with Batman comics.
• And yes, Tradd's amazing art from the landmark VENOM #150 is headlining the show. VENOM #150 may go down as this generation's DOCTOR STRANGE #55, an artist's showcase and calling card for Tradd the way it was for Michael Golden. That's right, I'm saying Tradd may be a gamechanger like Michael Golden!
• So long as Thanos remains a fan-favorite villain, “Thanos Wins” is destined to live on as an evergreen trade when this six-issue event is completed. It should be to Thanos what “Year One” is to Batman and “Born Again” is to Daredevil.
• THOR #701 may very well represent peak Harren (to date). James is already hugely influential amongst his peers, and this issue only further establishes his status as a generational talent. THOR #701 will be studied for years to come.

Since you missed it the first time...

1 hour ago, The Shoveler said:

And when you promote somebody as the next Frank Miller and hype their latest project as being analogous to Miller's most lucrative high-water marks, then you build the cliff and announce how fabulous it would be to take a leap.

2 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Actually, Sean Murphy has explicitly proclaimed comic art to be an investment AND compared himself to Frank Miller AND called WHITE KNIGHT the next DKR. Where's the outrage?

You must be nodding off, anyway, because you missed replying to several of my posts.

I'm multi-tasking.  You're deflecting.

7 minutes ago, Nexus said:

So someone like The Shoveler is just going to assume the worst.

There you go again, putting your words and your inferences into my mouth.  I'm not assuming anything.  All I have to do is read your words. 

2 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Good lord. It's late. You need sleep.

If I take a nap, I could miss out on the next Frank Miller!

22 minutes ago, Nexus said:

"Lucrative high-water mark" is what you inferred. Again, that's you.

Negative.  That's what you inferred.  My statement was clear.  You're simply hearing what you want to hear.

12 minutes ago, Nexus said:

What distinction? If I said Tradd Moore may be a gamechanger like Michael Golden, I mean that in terms of his talent, the quality of his art, and oh hey, if you've never heard of Tradd Moore, maybe you've heard of Michael Golden. Anything else you think you read, is on you.

Then what exactly am I saying? What am I presenting? You'll have to show me where I've said anything about future value.

"Lucrative high-water mark" is what you inferred. Again, that's you. My inference is creative high water mark.

In any case, Miller's "lucrative high-water mark" wouldn't be BORN AGAIN or YEAR ONE. It'd be DKR. And I've already said I'm, at best, agnostic about future prospects in terms of "investment". As a comic, though? It will remain great, regardless of what happens to the art's value. I'm keeping my Miller DKR art, regardless of what happens to its value. If there's a cliff, I've been warning people away from it. I believe most understand that. That some are so enamored with $$$, and can't see this hobby for anything more than that...again, that's on them. And you.

Marks, not mark.  Plural not singular.  Got it?  Do not quote me and then change my words.  Do you understand that?

10 minutes ago, Nexus said:

I believe most understand that. That some are so enamored with $$$, and can't see this hobby for anything more than that...again, that's on them. And you.

And me?  Prove it or your completely full of "spoon".

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

If I'm making a connection to Frank Miller, BORN AGAIN, YEAR ONE, Michael Golden, etc., I'm making a connection based on quality. On talent. On potentially introducing the reader to some excellent art they might not have noticed otherwise.

In that extract posted earlier, I'm not catching that distinction.  I do see a lot of "may be"s, "should be"s, "destined to"s and "will be"s:

9 hours ago, Mr. Machismo said:

  Quote

• Daniel has set himself on the path of becoming a complete comics creator, writing and drawing his own stories. As anyone who has read EXTREMITY can attest, he is excelling at both. The next Frank Miller may actually have nothing to do with Batman comics.
• And yes, Tradd's amazing art from the landmark VENOM #150 is headlining the show. VENOM #150 may go down as this generation's DOCTOR STRANGE #55, an artist's showcase and calling card for Tradd the way it was for Michael Golden. That's right, I'm saying Tradd may be a gamechanger like Michael Golden!
• So long as Thanos remains a fan-favorite villain, “Thanos Wins” is destined to live on as an evergreen trade when this six-issue event is completed. It should be to Thanos what “Year One” is to Batman and “Born Again” is to Daredevil.
• THOR #701 may very well represent peak Harren (to date). James is already hugely influential amongst his peers, and this issue only further establishes his status as a generational talent. THOR #701 will be studied for years to come.

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

Like I just said earlier, people hear what they want to hear. They'll believe what they want to believe.
 

 Sometimes they'll hear exactly what you say and believe exactly what you say, exactly as you present it to them.

1 hour ago, Nexus said:

If some make the immediate leap to $$$...that's on them.

And when you promote somebody as the next Frank Miller and hype their latest project as being analogous to Miller's most lucrative high-water marks, then you build the cliff and announce how fabulous it would be to take a leap.

23 minutes ago, Nexus said:

As for everyone else, I've said it enough times on the podcast, and on Twitter, et al, that if it hasn't already sunk in, it probably never will.

That's the kind of message that's easy to get lost when you send marketing mails that speculatively connect your products directly to Frank Miller, Year One, Born Again and Mike Golden. 

14 minutes ago, Nexus said:

Please tell your friend that if he buys art from me, to buy it for what it is (an original from a talented artist) and not for what it was never meant to be (an investment).

Why not tell his friend yourself in your fan newsletter?

9 minutes ago, cesium_7 said:

I saw a recent FB discussion about who the inker on this one was.  Someone asked Milgrom and he thought it was Sinnott.  Lots of different opinions, but seeemed like Giacoia was the most popular choice, Sinnott second, while several other inkers were proposed.  I did discover an earlier for sale listing for this, back around 2002, and it was listed as Starlin/Giacoia back then.

Can you share a link to that FB page?  I rarely go to FaceBorg, but I'd enjoy seeing the different perspectives on this one.

11 minutes ago, cesium_7 said:

It's amazing how the same piece of art can create so many different opinions as to the artist/s.

x1000.  It probably says a lot more about us than it does about the page! 

On 12/29/2017 at 10:47 AM, cesium_7 said:

The nice thing about seeing the original art is that it often provides definitive answers about the artists, though sometimes it just creates additional questions.  

The last HA auction had a very cool Starlin "Mighty World of Marvel" UK Hulk cover with inks attributed to Sinnott.  At the top of the page, it even had a notation where somebody wrote "Maybe Sinnott."  But the inks look like Milgrom too me.

3 hours ago, cesium_7 said:

I think there a strong chance it could be a Buscema cover, but the Spiderman figure was redrawn by someone else, thus why Sal didn't recognize it. 

 

I do know Frank Giacoia and Mike Esposito worked on several British covers together, particularly those published in 1975.  They apparently had desks next to each other in the Bullpen, so would trade things off between the two of them.  Have even seen both of their names on British art from 1977, so could have been common throughout the period.

That all makes sense.  I can understand if this piece was penciled by Sal, the Spidey figure was redone by Wilson, the main figures/foreground were inked by Giacoia, and backgrounds/other blacks were inked by Esposito.

Pure speculation dept: Maybe Spidey was originally too vertical and interfered with the trade dress and/or the many dialogue balloons.  That's a lot of speaking roles for a cover!

Audience Score drops to 49%. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

On 1/7/2018 at 1:57 PM, My young Padawan said:

This is very frustrating.  The toploaders are perfect for durability and presentation.  I am just concerned that the artwork will be affected over the years.  Perhaps I am just being overprotective.  I am considering replacing the toploaders with E. Gerber Archives and backing boards.  I am also considering an Itoya Profolio.  Any thoughts?  Again, thank you in advance for any suggestions.

I put most of my art pages in mylar with acid-free boards and then into Itoya portfolios from Anthony's.  The thickness of the boards can be too much for the portfolio if you try to use every sleeve in the port.  So my ports are about half-full to prevent warping the pages.  More info is in the thread linked below:

Bags Unlimited also has large Mylars & acid-free backing boards.  Mylar sized 24" x 18"product code is s1824r : https://www.bagsunlimited.com/product/4329/polyester-mylar-sleeve-4mil-no-flap

The backings (acid free) for this size are product code kaf401824: https://www.bagsunlimited.com/product/5486/backings-for-artwork-photos-unfolded-mapsnbsp18-x-24-14

This is what I use for my oversized pieces.  I get my 12 x 18 sleeves & backing from BU as well.

Product links and more storage discussion, including for oversized pieces, are in the post linked below:

I'm not getting any strong stylistic connections between the JR JR pages and the Super Spidey #193 cover.

1) In the UK cover, the bottom of his feet aren't solid black like in the 1977 page #45, panel 5.  it's a small thing, but that little touch of color on the bottom of the foot gives it a much more well-developed shape vs on page 45 where it's just flat.

2) In that same panel 5, Spidey's cranium is actually better-positioned than the cover, where the skull seems to be too far down towards his left shoulder.

3) On the #193 cover, his fingers & thumbs look more realistic.  In contrast, most of the fingers in the 1977 pages look clunky to me.  Peter's left hand in that last panel on page 47 looks very awkward, like a potato with a couple of weird roots growing out of it.

4) On the cover, Spidey's knees are shaped differently, and the calves are shaped and positioned (under/behind the leg) a little differently as well.

5) On page #46's bottom panel, Spidey's back has a wonky shape.  On page 47's first panel, the back's shape is simplified with straight & narrow torso/obliques which balloon out into two flat & simple curves on each side for the lats and the shoulder blades.  In the cover, it appears to me that the artist is trying to depict a more complex-shaped back, which includes more definition and development in the traps/upper back than what we see in the 1977 panel pages.

These variations could mean a different penciler.  Or it could just as easily be due to the different inkers (big difference between the draftsmanship of Giacoia vs Al Milgrom on the panel pages), a young artist experimenting with different techniques, or a busy journeyman trying to complete multiple projects by deadline.  Is Romita Jr one of those guys who is accessible on social media and takes questions?

I didn't mention it before, but that Cyclone figure on the cover bugs me.  It doesn't seem to match the style of Spidey.  If Sal would have said that he didn't draw the Spidey, but that he did draw Cyclone, that would make sense to me (except for the fact that Sal normally worked out of Virginia and rarely visited the Marvel offices).  Cyclone looks more like a Sal Buscema + George Klein Sam Grainger character from the Squadron Supreme in Avengers #70.  He doesn't seem like a Ron Wilson or even a JR JR figure.

I just read Jim Amash's book on Carmine Infantino (Penciler, Publisher, Provocatuer).  In the interview, Infantino mentions that Frank Giacoia possibly had Mike Esposito and Frank Giella ink some of Giacoia's projects.  Giacoia's inks always seemed pretty distinctive to me and I can't think of a single case where I would confuse Espo's inks for Giacoia's.  But, those background figures on #193 bugged me when I looked at this before.  I wonder if they were handled by someone else doing backgrounds.

Lastly, did Mike Zeck do any Marvel UK work?  his first work for Marvel was drawn in '76.

On 1/2/2018 at 5:03 PM, SquareChaos said:

 

This board will never get tired of discussing valuation.

Yes we will. 

The Spidey figure on that #193 doesn't look like Sal's work to me.  Spidey's broad, bulky back suggests that Wilson is possibly the penciler, as mentioned by Flambit.  The inks look like Giacoia.  You've ruled out Hunt, so I'm leaning towards Giacoia on inks.

I'm always impressed by the detective work to properly attribute these pieces.  Keep up the amazing work!

14 hours ago, NewEnglandGothic said:

What strikes me a bizarre in this thread is how some folks keep claiming “The Force Awakens” is a rip-off off “Star Wars,” by regurgitating its plot about 38 years later. But, no one (that I saw) has even mentioned how much stuff George Lucas “borrowed” from Akira Kurosawa’s “The Hidden Fortress” from 1958 for “Star Wars” in the first place. I just saw the Criterion of this one about a month ago and was blown away how good it was and I am a Star Wars fan, that will probably look at the original in a different light now as (gasp) a rehash of that movie’s prime elements (two peasants who became droids, the scene wipes, the samurai/Jedi, the princess, etc.)

There's definitely some goodness in the Criterion Collection's remasters of the Kurosawa films.  Here's a couple of trailer mash-ups for anyone who may be unfamiliar with The Hidden Fortress:

My favorite part is when Rose rescued the abused, brutalized horses from captivity...and left behind the children in slavery.

7 hours ago, Larryw7 said:

If Disney's plan is to kill off all of the members of the original trilogy...

Lando must be protected at ALL costs! 

3 hours ago, jsilverjanet said:

On November 13, Kylo Ren was asked to remove himself from his place of residence; that request came from his Supreme Leader Snoke. Deep down, he knew he was right, but he also knew that some day he would return to him, as the apprentice Snoke was looking for.  With nowhere else to go, he appeared at the home of his friend, General Hux. Several years earlier, Supreme Leader Snoke had thrown HIM out, requesting that HE never return. Can two former first order leaders share an apartment without driving each other crazy?

I'm with Yojimbo on this one: