CGC Announces New Signature Series Program

[irchooker]

Hearing of this initiative gives me the same feeling as finger nails on a chalk board. If there is to be anything good to come out of this process, it should be that any artist doing a sketch which requires a CGC SS rep to be present immediately increases the price of such a sketch to what the market will bear or above. Remove the economic incentive for the flippers, instead putting the money where it belongs: in the pocket of the talent.

[Jason Truong]

if older pieces can be autheticated, i would totally get my sketches encapuslated

 

I got a John Romita Jr. and a Tony Daniel I wouldn't mind slabbing... sure, I got them like ten years ago...

[armydoc]

I should clarify, I was not suggesting there be a grade, I was questioning why CGC is now in the encapsulation/authenticating business when there is no grading involved.

 

Think of it as a natural extension of Signature Series services.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't make the connection. SS is for a comic (which benefits from grading) and signatures seem much more easily forged than a sketch (IMO). This seems like profiteering. I'm sure we'll see all sorts of $199.99 CGC certified sketches on the Wizard site in the near future. I'm sure all of these arguments were made when CGC an SS started, maybe I'm just being resistant to change. Am I the only one who is bothered by this?

 

If I am, I'll just be quiet. (hopefully this isn't offending anyone, I'm just voicing my honest opinion).

[Jason Truong]

I'm sorry, but I can't make the connection. SS is for a comic (which benefits from grading) and signatures seem much more easily forged than a sketch (IMO). This seems like profiteering. I'm sure we'll see all sorts of $199.99 CGC certified sketches on the Wizard site in the near future. I'm sure all of these arguments were made when CGC an SS started, maybe I'm just being resistant to change. Am I the only one who is bothered by this?

 

If I am, I'll just be quiet. (hopefully this isn't offending anyone, I'm just voicing my honest opinion).

 

Being a victim of the forgery, it's pretty easy to forge sketches, which is why I have added watermarks on the sketches I've obtained, when posting them online. People can just print them out lightly, and go over it with a Sharpie or ink.

 

I do agree with you, seeing Wizard's site offering authenticated sketches, which I'm not really a big fan about.

 

Unfortunately, I see this raising the costs for the people that pay for sketches/commissions, that don't get them slabbed.

[Kevin Boyd]

Dude, liking or disliking is entirely your personal preference. I think the first reaction to just about any new idea (in general - not referring to you personally) is to be negative and think of the downsides. Which is natural and a good thing, perhaps you or someone else will suggest an excellent reason for this not to go forward.

 

However, this is something that the logistics of have been discussed for a very long time, almost as long as SS has been around. Sometimes you don't know what will happen until you actually TRY it, which is what we're doing now.

 

But my recommendation to you and others is, personally, if you don't like the idea that you don't use the service or support it.

[Jason Truong]

To add on to my previous post, it's the Authentication process, that benefits the sketches. Like CGC SS, it tells you who did what, and when (and sometimes where) it was done.

[armydoc]

Dude, liking or disliking is entirely your personal preference. I think the first reaction to just about any new idea (in general - not referring to you personally) is to be negative and think of the downsides. Which is natural and a good thing, perhaps you or someone else will suggest an excellent reason for this not to go forward.

 

However, this is something that the logistics of have been discussed for a very long time, almost as long as SS has been around. Sometimes you don't know what will happen until you actually TRY it, which is what we're doing now.

 

But my recommendation to you and others is, personally, if you don't like the idea that you don't use the service or support it.

 

Fair enough. (thumbs u

[Kevin Boyd]

Jason has brought up an excellent example, as he was directly affected by the new breed of scammer that is out there, one that sells forged sketches by taking images from places like CAF and printing them out and selling them as originals. I recently upgraded my CAF status to premium so that I could automatically watermark all of the pieces on my galleries.

[Jesusjon]

I'm perfectly ambivalent about this. Whatever little sketches I get, I get for fun, just for myself, and not for resale. I get them only on my buckslips so I can't flip them anyhow

 

Much like graded comics, (I get comics only to read, and as art catalogs) it's just not a market I'm part of.

 

 

[Jason Truong]

But my recommendation to you and others is, personally, if you don't like the idea that you don't use the service or support it.

 

It's not so much whether I support or use the service for the sketches. It's that other people do like the idea, and will use the service.

 

I just see this as a way for creators to raise their prices, cause there will be those people that get this done, just for the purpose of flipping the sketch. And if it continues, creators may think negatively towards CGC.

 

But then, I'm just thinking in the negatives.

[armydoc]

Jason has brought up an excellent example, as he was directly affected by the new breed of scammer that is out there, one that sells forged sketches by taking images from places like CAF and printing them out and selling them as originals. I recently upgraded my CAF status to premium so that I could automatically watermark all of the pieces on my galleries.

 

I guess I never thought of this. I'm just not sleazy enough for it to have crossed my mind. What will all of this do to the ungraded sketch. Will it relegate its value/collectability to that of an un SSed comic? It's all going to be up to the collector, but this is definitely going to prompt alot of changes to the OA community.

[armydoc]

But my recommendation to you and others is, personally, if you don't like the idea that you don't use the service or support it.

 

It's not so much whether I support or use the service for the sketches. It's that other people do like the idea, and will use the service.

 

I just see this as a way for creators to raise their prices, cause there will be those people that get this done, just for the purpose of flipping the sketch. And if it continues, creators may think negatively towards CGC.

 

But then, I'm just thinking in the negatives.

 

I have no doubt that this service will catch on. Look at how much the value of a book is increased by having it SS. The "marketing of the fear of getting a forged sketch" is going to sell this phenomenon.

[Kevin Boyd]

We've been discussing this with artists as well.

 

Here's the situation: you might get charged $20 for a sketch on a back board by an artist NOW. If you then have to pay $15 (I'm making up a price as I don't know what the price will be) to get it encapsulated plus shipping, then your investment in the piece is another $20+. You've got a $40 investment in a $20 sketch.

 

If you got that sketch framed, you might pay $10-15 for a frame.

 

The flippers are the issue here. Is a $40 investment going to pay off in a $50 or more sale (a minimum $5-10 dollar profit) on a $20 sketch? If they do, then the situation you are surmising is that the artist is going to see this and charge $50+ for what was once a $20 sketch. Well, if the flipper can't get more than $50 for an encapsulated sketch then he certainly isn't going to commission more sketches from the artist if the artist is now charging $50 and the artist won't be able to sell as many sketches if he's overpriced himself out of the market... I have seen many artists recently price themselves out of the sketch market. I might like X artist but I would never pay $500 for a $50 sketch, but I might pay artist Y $50 for a sketch and get an amazing piece that might resale for a lot more than $50.

 

So the trick would be in educating creators, which is what we will attempt to do. That an encapsulated sketch means the submitter has already placed an investment of X amount of dollars in getting the artwork encapsulated. That a buyer is paying for the OA and the holder, not just the OA.

[armydoc]

We've been discussing this with artists as well.

 

Here's the situation: you might get charged $20 for a sketch on a back board by an artist NOW. If you then have to pay $15 (I'm making up a price as I don't know what the price will be) to get it encapsulated plus shipping, then your investment in the piece is another $20+. You've got a $40 investment in a $20 sketch.

 

If you got that sketch framed, you might pay $10-15 for a frame.

 

The flippers are the issue here. Is a $40 investment going to pay off in a $50 or more profit on a $20 sketch? If they do, then the situation you are surmising is that the artist is going to see this and charge $50+ for what was once a $20 sketch. Well, if the flipper can't get more than $50 for an encapsulated sketch then he certainly isn't going to commission more sketches from the artist if the artist is now charging $50 and the artist won't be able to sell as many sketches if he's overpriced himself out of the market... I have seen many artists recently price themselves out of the sketch market. I might like X artist but I would never pay $500 for a $50 sketch, but I might pay artist Y $50 for a sketch and get an amazing piece that might resale for a lot more than $50.

 

So the trick would be in educating creators, which is what we will attempt to do. That an encapsulated sketch means the submitter has already placed an investment of X amount of dollars in getting the artwork encapsulated. That a buyer is paying for the OA and the holder, not just the OA.

 

But all of this is going to create inflated demand and prices. Look at how much SS and universal slabbed books go for. A modern universal regularly is sold at 10x cover price. You can't tell me that you don't see this completely changing the way con sketches are done. All I'm saying is that the collector is the one who is going to take the hit in the end. We are all collectors here, we are going to pay if the only sketch we can get is SS (which I eventually see certain artists doing). You can't say "well than don't buy it than", that's not realistic.

[chrisco37]

Kinda cool idea, but I'd rather not see it.

 

I see two things happening:

 

1. Artists increase their prices dramatically (as they know it's just going on to eBay for a flip). Some artists have already been doing it. I didn't even consider getting a sketch at Heroes b/c most were asking $40-100. What happened to the $10-15 or (gasp) free Con Sketch?

 

2. Alot of artists might go "Steranko" and require a personalization to prevent easy flips.

[Sal]

well, i think it's a pretty smart idea. artists know that their stuff is being sold already and are beginning to charge for sketches.

 

of course, the designer in me wishes that there was a new type of slab for these things that didn't incorporate the yellow label so prominently and in exactly the same spot as the other slabs, and further allowed for some way for people to store these things in a manner similar to the way they're storing them now. like a 3 ring binder accessory or something.

 

 

it's still a smart thing for CGC to get involved with

 

 

[Ty_]

Kinda cool idea, but I'd rather not see it.

 

I see two things happening:

 

1. Artists increase their prices dramatically (as they know it's just going on to eBay for a flip). Some artists have already been doing it. I didn't even consider getting a sketch at Heroes b/c most were asking $40-100. What happened to the $10-15 or (gasp) free Con Sketch?

 

2. Alot of artists might go "Steranko" and require a personalization to prevent easy flips.

 

I like this idea and will wait to see how it all unfolds before making a final judgement. As I collect for my personal needs I wouldn't have any issues with paying for a sketch from an artist who's work I truly like. I only get a one sketch per artist in a sketchbook as it is today because I don't want to take advantage of those artists that offer free or very cheap sketches. If they feel like they are missing out on the 'CGC money' and increase their fees, all the more power to them. And if they wanted to personalize it, all the better.

 

As for the flipper aspect, if they can make money from it all the power to them but as Kevin points out, at what price point will it be worthwhile...

 

[Kevin Boyd]

But all of this is going to create inflated demand and prices. Look at how much SS and universal slabbed books go for. A modern universal regularly is sold at 10x cover price. You can't tell me that you don't see this completely changing the way con sketches are done. All I'm saying is that the collector is the one who is going to take the hit in the end. We are all collectors here, we are going to pay if the only sketch we can get is SS (which I eventually see certain artists doing). You can't say "well than don't buy it than", that's not realistic.

 

A modern universal - 10 x cover price is $30, but that's writing off the cost of the SERVICE. To get that book graded cost the submitter $16 plus the cost of the book plus shipping - so let's say they spent $20 to get that money back plus make a $10 profit. If I were to apply the logic that moderns sometimes sell for 10x cover price on eBay when graded and encapsulated, then why aren't the publishers selling new issues for $30 a pop when they see people paying $30 for graded books? They do understand that someone paid for a service step in-between.

 

Or Signature Series, the stellar examples may go for big money, but the standard run of the mill items go for about what it would cost for you to buy the book and get it SS'd (about $30), not including the shipping.

 

Or you can just pay $3 and get the comic from the stand. Or spend time in line and get that $3 comic signed.

 

Ditto for the con sketches. If it costs you $20 or $50 to get a sketch from the artist, would you pay 10 times that for the encapsulated version? Realistically, NO you won't. Some people MAY, but it would have to be an outstanding piece to warrant a $200 - $500 price tag.

 

 

[armydoc]

But all of this is going to create inflated demand and prices. Look at how much SS and universal slabbed books go for. A modern universal regularly is sold at 10x cover price. You can't tell me that you don't see this completely changing the way con sketches are done. All I'm saying is that the collector is the one who is going to take the hit in the end. We are all collectors here, we are going to pay if the only sketch we can get is SS (which I eventually see certain artists doing). You can't say "well than don't buy it than", that's not realistic.

 

A modern universal - 10 x cover price is $30, but that's writing off the cost of the SERVICE. To get that book graded cost the submitter $16 plus the cost of the book plus shipping - so let's say they spent $20 to get that money back plus make a $10 profit.

 

Or Signature Series, the stellar examples may go for big money, but the standard run of the mill items go for, sometimes, less than it would cost for you to buy the book and get it SS'd (about $30) and shipped back to you.

 

Or you can just pay $3 and get the comic from the stand. Or spend time in line and get that $3 comic signed.

 

Ditto for the con sketches. If it costs you $20 or $50 to get a sketch from the artist, would you pay 10 times that for the encapsulated version? Realistically, NO you won't. Some people MAY, but it would have to be an outstanding piece to warrant a $200 - $500 price tag.

 

 

We'll see. We should save this thread and get back to this discussion a year or two from now. I don't think you'll be able to get a con sketch for $20-$50 by many artists.

[Raphael]

Kinda cool idea, but I'd rather not see it.

 

I see two things happening:

 

1. Artists increase their prices dramatically (as they know it's just going on to eBay for a flip). Some artists have already been doing it. I didn't even consider getting a sketch at Heroes b/c most were asking $40-100. What happened to the $10-15 or (gasp) free Con Sketch?

 

2. Alot of artists might go "Steranko" and require a personalization to prevent easy flips.

 

Steranko doesn't even sketch anymore