Baker Romance 43 43

[ThothAmon]

Posted in the under 10 census thread also.  Teen-Age Temptations 7.

[Sqeggs]

4 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

Posted in the under 10 census thread also.  Teen-Age Temptations 7.

One of my favs, too, although from the looks of the guy with the receding hairline maybe it should have been titled "Middle-Age Temptations." 

[Robot Man]

10 hours ago, Sqeggs said:

I'm with Steve on this one.  I remember a few years ago when I first got interested in Baker and checked the guide.  It was a mess:  Missing attributions, failure to break out issues (like CL 25) that were obviously of greater interest to collectors, or breaking out issues that probably shouldn't have been.

It's improved since then but it still has a ways to go.  Maybe as prices continue to rise (if they do), someone at the guide will take the time to finally make the listings reflect the relative of values of books and make sure the attributions are correct (although, granted, there is debate about some Baker attributions on non-St John books). 

I get what you gentlemen are saying and I agree. There is a lot of misinformation concerning Baker's work in the Guide. I used to send in a lot of info but gave up when it wasn't used. After all, it is all over the place price wise but there is no better reference tool around for collectors and that is where the Guide shines. As far as pricing goes, I don't need it anyway. No point in "rocking the boat"...

[MBFan]

It'll be hard for the guide to nail down pricing for Baker books anytime in the near future. A few rabid flush-with-cash bidders have been driving high prices lately, but if you look at bid histories on eBay, most bidders drop out way below the top bidders, often of which there are only 2. Once those few people fill their collections, continued high pricing will depend on more rabid rich bidders entering the fray. Otherwise, things will die down a bit and mid-range bidders will start to win some books. 

And here's something that distorts Baker books pricing to the high side: Certain people are driving bids ridiculously high on eBay...after which they turn around and try to sell their win at an even higher price in other venues.  In this situation, one person is setting a new selling record as they buy...and another when they sell. In the absence of that single person, certain Baker books wouldn't be selling for such astronomical prices. 

[BakerFanOne]

5 hours ago, MBFan said:

It'll be hard for the guide to nail down pricing for Baker books anytime in the near future. A few rabid flush-with-cash bidders have been driving high prices lately, but if you look at bid histories on eBay, most bidders drop out way below the top bidders, often of which there are only 2. Once those few people fill their collections, continued high pricing will depend on more rabid rich bidders entering the fray. Otherwise, things will die down a bit and mid-range bidders will start to win some books. 

And here's something that distorts Baker books pricing to the high side: Certain people are driving bids ridiculously high on eBay...after which they turn around and try to sell their win at an even higher price in other venues.  In this situation, one person is setting a new selling record as they buy...and another when they sell. In the absence of that single person, certain Baker books wouldn't be selling for such astronomical prices. 

I can appreciate that prices in auctions can often result in feverish bidding as rabid Baker fans (including me) are trying to fill remaining holes or upgrade their copies.  I definitely feel there are more than a few rabid Baker fans and as they learn and understand more about which Bakers are truly scarce, the bidding will continue to seem aggressive and perhaps unnaturally high.  I do believe that the record high prices on Baker are a reflection of their true value and unlike a bubble and I would not expect prices to drop on the truly desirable Baker comics.   Frankly many of us have been spoiled by the low prices on Baker comics for years and now that everyone is on to them, it is getting harder and harder to find the bargains.   Do I wish that Teen-Age Romances 9 and Cinderella Love 25 were available for less than $100?  Of course.  But look at the overall market for good girl, pre-code horror, Centaurs, Cheslers, early Fiction House and Fox comics as every week seems to set a new high.  And then look at Golden Age keys like More Fun 73, All Star 8, and Detective 31, Action 7, etc. .  . and prices seem crazy high.  How about Silver Age like Hulk 1, AF 15, Spidey 1, Showcase 22 and then frankly Baker seems like a relative good bargain.  So to try and attribute high prices to a single source seems to stretch plausibility in my humble opinion as it is more a sign of the ever evolving comic book times.

Edited July 25, 2017 by BakerFanOne

[MBFan]

2 hours ago, BakerFanOne said:

So to try and attribute high prices to a single source seems to stretch plausibility in my humble opinion as it is more a sign of the ever evolving comic book times.

I'm certainly not attributing high prices to a single source. No way. 

In general, many of us who are COLLECTING Baker are in competition and driving up the prices. And it's true that certain Baker books are always going to go for big bucks, like Cinderella Love #25, Giant Comics Editions #12, etc. May the best collector win, regardless of final price. If you have more money or just want to spend more on a particular issue than I do, no problem! (I have a habit of buying expensive electric guitars, too, so sometimes I'm thinking, "Do I really want that comic that bad, or would I rather save for another Les Paul?")

However, in some cases people who are NOT BAKER COLLECTORS are butting into auctions, bidding aggressively to win...and then turning right around and selling for a profit to real Baker collectors who they just outbid on the auctions. 

How it works: All but 2 bidders fall out at around $350. The buying-only-to-resell bidder drives the book to $650, preventing the other bidder from filling the hole in their collection. If the non-collector were not ramping up the bid, the other bidder could have landed the book for a little over $350. 

Next, the auction winner turns right around and takes the book that he didn't love and desire like we do and puts it up for sale for $775, thus adding over $400 to the price of a book that would have sold for much less without the involvement of that one person. 

My daddy told me long ago not to expect a "fair" world, but Baker books cost enough as it is without non-fans getting in the middle and jacking up prices even higher. Seems kind of predatory and unfair. 

AND how is Overstreet supposed to price that issue in the guide? Is it worth $350 (the price most were willing to pay), $650 (the price the non-Baker-collector drove the price to) or $775 (the price the non-Baker-collector decided they want for it)?

Edited July 25, 2017 by MBFan
left a word out of a sentence

[BakerFanOne]

6 hours ago, MBFan said:

I'm certainly not attributing high prices to a single source. No way. 

In general, many of us who are COLLECTING Baker are in competition and driving up the prices. And it's true that certain Baker books are always going to go for big bucks, like Cinderella Love #25, Giant Comics Editions #12, etc. May the best collector win, regardless of final price. If you have more money or just want to spend more on a particular issue than I do, no problem! (I have a habit of buying expensive electric guitars, too, so sometimes I'm thinking, "Do I really want that comic that bad, or would I rather save for another Les Paul?")

However, in some cases people who are NOT BAKER COLLECTORS are butting into auctions, bidding aggressively to win...and then turning right around and selling for a profit to real Baker collectors who they just outbid on the auctions. 

How it works: All but 2 bidders fall out at around $350. The buying-only-to-resell bidder drives the book to $650, preventing the other bidder from filling the hole in their collection. If the non-collector were not ramping up the bid, the other bidder could have landed the book for a little over $350. 

Next, the auction winner turns right around and takes the book that he didn't love and desire like we do and puts it up for sale for $775, thus adding over $400 to the price of a book that would have sold for much less without the involvement of that one person. 

My daddy told me long ago not to expect a "fair" world, but Baker books cost enough as it is without non-fans getting in the middle and jacking up prices even higher. Seems kind of predatory and unfair. 

AND how is Overstreet supposed to price that issue in the guide? Is it worth $350 (the price most were willing to pay), $650 (the price the non-Baker-collector drove the price to) or $775 (the price the non-Baker-collector decided they want for it)?

 I can definitely appreciate your concern that some buyers may seem more interested in making a buck than actually collecting the comics.  But this can be healthy as it creates excitement and exposure for Baker and presumably would drive more Baker books into the marketplace.   So this may ultimately help the market achieve a better equilibrium between buyer and seller.   In terms of this being predatory and unfair behavior, I certainly would think the seller of the book would deem this as fair.   And if the buyer is recognizing a good opportunity, not sure how that makes it predatory unless he or she is leveraging some unfair advantage and in auction scenarios, that seems very unlikely.  Think about the reverse scenario where you walk into a local comic shop and there is a Baker in a bin for $15.   You buy it and then flip it for $200.  Is that somehow predatory and unfair as the dealer had no knowledge about the Baker market and by leveraging your own knowledge, you make a tidy profit?  

Edited July 25, 2017 by BakerFanOne

[MBFan]

41 minutes ago, BakerFanOne said:

Think about the reverse scenario where you walk into a local comic shop and there is a Baker in a bin for $15.   You buy it and then flip it for $200.  Is that somehow predatory and unfair as the dealer had no knowledge about the Baker market and by leveraging your own knowledge, you make a tidy profit?  

I'm not sure what it has to do with my original comment that it's hard for Overstreet to accurately list Baker prices...but the answer to your question is no and it's not really a reverse of the scenario I'm talking about.

I'm referring to the distortion of pricing that occurs when people who have no interest in a particular item interject themselves into an auction only so they can turn around immediately and jack the prices up on true fans who they just outbid. 

To put it another way: Imagine you and I were at an in-person live comic book auction, and we were both rabid and ready to go to the limit for a 9.2 copy of Giant Comics Editions #12. (Dream big!)

Someone on the sidelines hears us talking and realizes that you and I don't care what it costs to land the book. That person came to bid on some Superman comics, but now they smell money and decide to outbid both of us on the GCE 12, and they have the finances to outlast both of us.

After the end of the auction, as I'm walking to my car, the winning bidder runs up to me in the parking lot and offers me the book for $1500 more than he just paid.

Maybe some people would be good with that. I would not.

And again, back to the subject that started this Baker thread sidebar: Likely being the only sale that year (or ever of course) for GCE 12 in such high grade, how should Overstreet list that issue & grade in the guide? The price at which you or I would have outlasted the other? The price the flipper outbid us to? Or the price after his mark-up? 

According to GoCollect, 78 9.8 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #300 have sold on eBay in the past 12 months. With that sales volume, even after some dealer hanky-panky, a reliable average price can be determined. Some of these Baker books, however, might sell once every 2 years or more, making it very hard to arrive at a reliable price for the guide. Between that and people who are manipulating the system at times, we may never see accurate Baker pricing in Overstreet. 

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by MBFan

[tabcom]

Love the intel. Thanks for sharing.

[Robot Man]

8 hours ago, MBFan said:

I'm certainly not attributing high prices to a single source. No way. 

In general, many of us who are COLLECTING Baker are in competition and driving up the prices. And it's true that certain Baker books are always going to go for big bucks, like Cinderella Love #25, Giant Comics Editions #12, etc. May the best collector win, regardless of final price. If you have more money or just want to spend more on a particular issue than I do, no problem! (I have a habit of buying expensive electric guitars, too, so sometimes I'm thinking, "Do I really want that comic that bad, or would I rather save for another Les Paul?")

However, in some cases people who are NOT BAKER COLLECTORS are butting into auctions, bidding aggressively to win...and then turning right around and selling for a profit to real Baker collectors who they just outbid on the auctions. 

How it works: All but 2 bidders fall out at around $350. The buying-only-to-resell bidder drives the book to $650, preventing the other bidder from filling the hole in their collection. If the non-collector were not ramping up the bid, the other bidder could have landed the book for a little over $350. 

Next, the auction winner turns right around and takes the book that he didn't love and desire like we do and puts it up for sale for $775, thus adding over $400 to the price of a book that would have sold for much less without the involvement of that one person. 

My daddy told me long ago not to expect a "fair" world, but Baker books cost enough as it is without non-fans getting in the middle and jacking up prices even higher. Seems kind of predatory and unfair. 

AND how is Overstreet supposed to price that issue in the guide? Is it worth $350 (the price most were willing to pay), $650 (the price the non-Baker-collector drove the price to) or $775 (the price the non-Baker-collector decided they want for it)?

I'd take the Les Paul hands down...

[comicnoir]

Strangely enough guitar sales are down.

That's why it's good to keep your cards close to your vest. I got Baker deals from dealers back in the day (not anymore) but I didn't flip. If I did would there be difference? Is motive and purity of intent a determination in transparency? We've all walked away from a deal getting the better, it's part of the game. I was offered a chance as an OS adviser. Turned it down. People can glean their own information from sales. So can OS. They choose to remain ignorant.

[sacentaur]

So here's my haul from SDCC, which pushed me past my goal of acquiring 50 Bakers this year (same goal as last year). 

 

[MrBedrock]

5 hours ago, MBFan said:

I'm not sure what it has to do with my original comment that it's hard for Overstreet to accurately list Baker prices...but the answer to your question is no and it's not really a reverse of the scenario I'm talking about.

I'm referring to the distortion of pricing that occurs when people who have no interest in a particular item interject themselves into an auction only so they can turn around immediately and jack the prices up on true fans who they just outbid. 

To put it another way: Imagine you and I were at an in-person live comic book auction, and we were both rabid and ready to go to the limit for a 9.2 copy of Giant Comics Editions #12. (Dream big!)

Someone on the sidelines hears us talking and realizes that you and I don't care what it costs to land the book. That person came to bid on some Superman comics, but now they smell money and decide to outbid both of us on the GCE 12, and they have the finances to outlast both of us.

After the end of the auction, as I'm walking to my car, the winning bidder runs up to me in the parking lot and offers me the book for $1500 more than he just paid.

Maybe some people would be good with that. I would not.

And again, back to the subject that started this Baker thread sidebar: Likely being the only sale that year (or ever of course) for GCE 12 in such high grade, how should Overstreet list that issue & grade in the guide? The price at which you or I would have outlasted the other? The price the flipper outbid us to? Or the price after his mark-up? 

According to GoCollect, 78 9.8 copies of Amazing Spider-Man #300 have sold on eBay in the past 12 months. With that sales volume, even after some dealer hanky-panky, a reliable average price can be determined. Some of these Baker books, however, might sell once every 2 years or more, making it very hard to arrive at a reliable price for the guide. Between that and people who are manipulating the system at times, we may never see accurate Baker pricing in Overstreet. 

 

As a dealer, it is getting harder and harder to acquire inventory. More and more we have to rely on auctions. It is a hard world when we have to pay more than anyone in the auction to purchase something we hope to resell for a profit. But in most cases we are pretty successful turning these items around because a large chunk of our audience does not participate in every auction and therefore they depend on us to conveniently have the items they are looking for. I realize it may be a bummer for the fans of a particular item who are participating in a particular auction to subsequently see that item available in my or another dealer's inventory for resale at a higher price. Fortunately for you there are two easy ways to guarantee that this won't ever happen again.

1) Convince all of the fans of an item to participate in the auction and bid aggressively, or

2) You yourself bid high enough to win the item.

Otherwise those books that you feel are being market manipulated because they are going elsewhere for resale will continue to go elsewhere for resale.

[Robot Man]

8 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

As a dealer, it is getting harder and harder to acquire inventory. More and more we have to rely on auctions. It is a hard world when we have to pay more than anyone in the auction to purchase something we hope to resell for a profit. But in most cases we are pretty successful turning these items around because a large chunk of our audience does not participate in every auction and therefore they depend on us to conveniently have the items they are looking for. I realize it may be a bummer for the fans of a particular item who are participating in a particular auction to subsequently see that item available in my or another dealer's inventory for resale at a higher price. Fortunately for you there are two easy ways to guarantee that this won't ever happen again.

1) Convince all of the fans of an item to participate in the auction and bid aggressively, or

2) You yourself bid high enough to win the item.

Otherwise those books that you feel are being market manipulated because they are going elsewhere for resale will continue to go elsewhere for resale.

I don't know how you guys do it Ricky. People see big prices dealer sell for but they don't realize the small margin you are really netting. It has got to be VERY hard to aquire great inventory for your customers especially when you have to rely on buying from other dealers at shows. Then you get kicked down by collectors. Auctions are your only other option. You have a store and get some walk in stuff but I'm sure that has diminished a lot.

I do way more than just comic books. I set up at toy shows, flea markets ect. Where I buy and sell. Comics, Paper stuff of all kinds, Advertising items, Toys, Sports memorabilia, Political items ect. A lot easier to find deals and easier for me because I deal in a lot of different stuff. And even this has gotton hard to find good stuff. You guys don't have that option.

Compettition mostly comes from other collectors now. It is hard to find books that are cool, "off the radar" and affordable any more. I have had to adjust my wants many times over the years as I just got priced out. At the end of the day, they are just comic books and I can live without most of them anyway.

Hope you had a good SDCC. You are the kind of dealer I hit first. You get it. Something for everyone, spot on grading, fair prices and just a great guy to deal with! 

Oh, and the Dodgers are 3 games up on you. Better get going...

[Robot Man]

39 minutes ago, sacentaur said:

So here's my haul from SDCC, which pushed me past my goal of acquiring 50 Bakers this year (same goal as last year). 

 

Nice haul Steve! You were a buying machine. I'd have to sell a kidney or rob somebody to come home with that pile...

[sfcityduck]

18 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

As a dealer, it is getting harder and harder to acquire inventory. More and more we have to rely on auctions. It is a hard world when we have to pay more than anyone in the auction to purchase something we hope to resell for a profit. But in most cases we are pretty successful turning these items around because a large chunk of our audience does not participate in every auction and therefore they depend on us to conveniently have the items they are looking for. I realize it may be a bummer for the fans of a particular item who are participating in a particular auction to subsequently see that item available in my or another dealer's inventory for resale at a higher price. Fortunately for you there are two easy ways to guarantee that this won't ever happen again.

1) Convince all of the fans of an item to participate in the auction and bid aggressively, or

2) You yourself bid high enough to win the item.

Otherwise those books that you feel are being market manipulated because they are going elsewhere for resale will continue to go elsewhere for resale.

Very insightful post.  Your comments remind me of comments made by Vincent and Fishler:

Quote

“We didn’t start with the Impossible Collection as our goal. This was a collection of characters that Ayman liked. It was our job to find the pieces of the puzzle and put them together,” states Vincent Zurzolo, Metropolis COO. “Being in the vintage comic market for over 40 years, there is one thing in particular I learned, and that is patience,” offers Metropolis CEO, Stephen Fishler. “Slowly and methodically, we hand-picked each piece for the collection. Sometimes we waited years for the right piece to make itself available from a collector who was finally ready to pass the comic on to a new collection.”  “Vincend added: "In a way we are treasure hunters. We scour the earth to find vintage comics."

My takeaway is that the most financially successful dealers these days are selling their information and connections more than they are comics themselves.  They've become, in a sense, consultants and headhunters.  The smart dealers are not sitting back waiting for folks who aren't collectors to sell them comics anymore.  Instead, they are building their relationships, taking extensive notes on who has what and who wants what (valuable information), and are turning themselves into necessary middlemen for buyers who want specific items and sellers who want to eager buyers.

But, that's just a guess.  Correct me if I'm not reading this right.

[comicjack]

43 minutes ago, sacentaur said:

So here's my haul from SDCC, which pushed me past my goal of acquiring 50 Bakers this year (same goal as last year). 

 

When did they make a Bakers dozen fifteen    Very nice !

[Sqeggs]

7 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

Hope you had a good SDCC. You are the kind of dealer I hit first.

Yep.  That's what I do, too:  Hit him first before he hits you. 

[Robot Man]

14 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Very insightful post.  Your comments remind me of comments made by Vincent and Fishler:

My takeaway is that the most financially successful dealers these days are selling their information and connections more than they are comics themselves.  They've become, in a sense, consultants and headhunters.  The smart dealers are not sitting back waiting for folks who aren't collectors to sell them comics anymore.  Instead, they are building their relationships, taking extensive notes on who has what and who wants what (valuable information), and are turning themselves into necessary middlemen for buyers who want specific items and sellers who want to eager buyers.

But, that's just a guess.  Correct me if I'm not reading this right.

I believe you read that right. It was also a smart move to add an auction company to their business model. Smart guys and probably one of only a very select few who are really making good money in this hobby. Love them or hate them, they are smart guys.

[Dr. Love]

At least flippers are committed to bringing the books back into the market, hopefully for incremental profit that doesn't mean a big difference to the eventual buyer (obviously, or there would be no sale) but which the flipper leverages by increasing the amount of transactions over a time period.  What chaps me from time to time is how it ends up that I put 25 years into treasure hunting something and it becomes popular and it can end up with someone who got interested 2 weeks ago, and is willing to spend more than me at this moment.  For a "one and done" Baker romance buy, that new collector can go all in a way you don't if you're in for the long haul.  That book is probably going into deep storage, after all, it's the new fanboy's only Baker romance.

But chapped or not, this is not only the way it is but the way it should be.

Absent direct collusion, the market tends to be a perfect pricing mechanism.  Not only that - I don't want a world where "it's not fair, they've got more money than me" becomes  an accepted basis for how transactions are allowed to happen.  That mindset has ramifications far beyond the commercial aspects.