X-MEN 94 CGC 9.6

[fantastic_four]

I think production defects should be dealt with seperately....just as Page Quality is....

 

Grading subcategories are the "now" for some baseball certification companies, and the future for comics--I hope. I wish CGC would innovate now before their future competition does.

[joe_collector]

[There are few collectors that would voice the petty gripes about the QP of comics (unless severe) 10 years ago as I've seen lately.

 

You're kidding right? When I was a kid, I knew collectors who would look through the rack to find the copy without any white border and centered nicely. I've always done this when buying back issues, and steer clear when the book has a combination of white border/off-cut.

 

And as I've stated many times, I have dealt with dealers in the 80's and 90's that refused to give a miscut/off-center book like that X-Men 94 a NM grade, simply because it wasn't aesthetically on-par with the grade. Personally, I think this whole POS production flaw business has gotten less important with the advent of CGC, due to the zero influence it has on grade.

 

In the 70's or 80's (or right before CGC even), you'd offer Jason's 9.4 and 9.6 issues raw as NM, and I guarantee you that the majority of collectors would pick the nicely-centered, no white-spine 9.4 any day of the week.

[joe_collector]

Bull...a NM is a NM. Sure there might be minor differences in perpendicular angle of cover or slight white showing on a cover but it only a problem if YOU MAKE IT A PROBLEM.

 

Hey Bub, you spend your money on those white-border beauty/mis-cut classics, and let us spend our money wisely.

 

If you love those books, more power to you, but don't tell me or others how to think, what to collect, or how to spend out hard-earned dollars.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think production defects should be dealt with seperately....just as Page Quality is....

 

Grading subcategories are the "now" for some baseball certification companies, and the future for comics--I hope. I wish CGC would innovate now before their future competition does.

 

CGC should come out with a PLATINUM SERIES within which only QP 10.0's can be slabbed......

 

 

[delekkerste]

cuts and off centre books with white spine showing will not be as sought after as books with perfect registration and prices of 9.6 books with such QP defects will probably fall somewhat

 

First of all, these "anal retentive" collectors have *already* been bidding less for miscut and miswrapped books (reference FF's post above). It hasn't suddenly started to happen just because Beyonder coined the annoyingly over and mis-used "QP" slogan. The only way your argument that QP will be a factor 5-10 years from now (as opposed to now *already*) holds any water is if you believe that speculators and label-buyers have driven up prices to unsustainable, ridiculous levels regardless of QP in the current market and that once these people are driven out of the hobby due to a severe price correction (re: The Crash), the true collectors that remain will focus more on the merits of the book than the label.

 

In any case, I agree that miscut and miswrapped books should sell for less, particularly if the defects are severe enough that they would have warranted a comment on the old CGC labels (before CGC sold out the collectors to satisfy dealer greed by removing the comments). However, it's getting out of hand whereby a 1/32" bit of white showing on the front cover or a tiny bit of the front cover being visible on the back cover or a 3 degree angle mis-cut is treated like it's a crisis of Chernobyl-like proportions. Give me a break. Not to mention that there are ton of collectors out there for whom it doesn't matter a great deal. Who says only books with a theoretical "QP 9" or "QP 10" rating are desirable?

 

I think awe4one's points are very valid - tiny production defects which in the past would have escaped 95% of collectors' attention are now being magnified to absolutely ludicrous, outlandish proportions because suddenly the QP craze has suddenly become more important than anything else in determining the value of a book. People are buying into the QP hype hand over fist and perception is becoming reality. It's classic mob/crowd psychology at work, like something out of 19th century French psychologist Gustave LeBon's masterpiece "The Crowd". Look, QP has its place and there are a lot of books out there where the label overstates the grade due to production defects. However, let's not get carried away and let's keep everything in its proper perspective.

 

Gene

[THE_BEYONDER]

However, let's not get carried away and let's keep everything in its proper perspective.

 

Enlighten me. What is the proper perspective ?

[BronzeBruce13]

An excellent thread and some great posts!

(addressed to no one in particular)

 

I identify with both sides of this discussion. I'm certainly one who strives to obtain books that appeal to my particular tastes (structurally deserving copies with the best "eye appeal" possible). I have to believe I go to far greater lengths to do so than most collectors. I routinely buy additional copies just for the opportunity to compare them against my current "keeper" for instance. Obviously, "QP" (as coined by Beyonder) plays a large part in my decision making. It does more so now than it did when I re-entered the hobby 3 years ago. Initially, I was not as discerning and was just thrilled to find books in the condition I sought them in. Miswraps were a factor, but not a big concern if they were not "extreme" or more importantly "angled" much. I happily accepted a larger "straight/uniform miswrap" back then as opposed to my current acceptance level which is still more lax then some here, but tighter than my previous. Production creases were also of no major concern to me either as I considered them unobtrusive for the most part. Over time, my preferences evolved (for me, not suggesting there is a clear path for everyone to follow) in part due to conversations with other collectors as to what they liked and why. Some of the better discussions took place here. When I heard a convincing POV that made sense to me, in some cases, it influenced my own preference. As a result, I'm now more wary of production creases and miswraps that extend to the point that elements/art on the right side are compromised visually.

 

I think the "QP" issue becomes a larger factor depending on how expensive the book is for a couple reasons in my case. Firstly, the more one pays, the more selective one tends to be and the more determined to be satisfied with the book in terms of meeting their preference. Secondly, since I'm always looking to improve within the same grade or at a higher grade, resale is possible, so it also makes sense to be selective and obtain books that have high desirability to the group most likely to want them. On the other side of the coin, if an item is truly scarce or at least unavailable for a long time... the "selectivity line" can loosen. If I found a worthy MTU 1 in 9.6 that had a slight angled miswrap, its possible I just might go for it (for now, to start somewhere and have the pleasure of owning a structurally better copy) BUT I may pass on multitude of other books that look the same but are more available.

 

Anyway, to my real point here... even being as selective and demanding as I am, I rarely considered the books I passed on, or did not meet my preferences to be POS that "no one" should be satisfied with. More importantly... I don't consider the people that are happy with them to be insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, label-buyers, or inferior collectors. My impression is that on occasion those that are happy with said books (or would be) are unfairly judged, insulted and ridiculed as if there was only one point of view as to how one should collect and appreciate comics. There are many, and none are worthy of mockery... people collect as they are compelled to. What bothers my eye, may not bother anothers... and neither of us are "right". I think its best to keep in mind that the criteria each of develops is still "just an individual preference" regardless of who else shares the same view. Beauty, after all... is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I also don't understand the air of arrogance and intolerance displayed here sometimes. We really need ALL types of collectors with varying tastes to make the hobby go 'round and remain healthy... right? Everyone from the low grade multiple-reader fans... to those that care little for production flaws... to those that collect HG Raw... all the way to CGC buyers of various grades. Maybe I've misunderstood some of the comments I've read here over time (it wouldn't be the first time), but I personally agree with Jim and Gene's view that books that are not ideal from a production standpoint (and those that may like them) most definitely receive a much harsher thrashing than they should. It seems like there is a "ultra-critical judgmental" bandwagon that needs to be ridden. For the record, I'm talking about many posts read over time and not ones made in this post alone by far.

 

What if nearly everyone coveted basically the same type of book... a NM- 9.2 to NM 9.4, production perfect comic... what then? Wouldn't everyone beat the [!@#%^&^] out of each other and drive values of these books up to unheard of levels while the other 90% of the books were ignored? How long would the hobby last then? I think its essential that there be a home for comics in any condition... I welcome collectors of all preferences because without diverse tastes and needs, dealers could not sell to enough people and this hobby would die an earlier death than it would otherwise... so we should embrace the differences as corny as that line is.

 

I used this forgettable motto a few times before... but

 

"collect and let collect"

[joe_collector]

Gene, I have to disagree with this. Long before CGC, the anal collectors were looking for high QP, and these are the same guys that are paying big bucks for CGC labels. Nothing has changed, and I guarantee you won't see any of the big dawgs sniffing around that CGC 9.6 X-Men 94.

 

Usually the way it happens is that the BSD's have their pick of the litter for top dollar, nab the truly high-grade, high-QP comics, and then the runts make their way to EBay.

 

Even the Bronze One has stated he upgrades like this, and has on occasion, sold an inferior 9.8/9.6 and kept a 9.6/9.4 that just looked better and had much higher QP, then kept looking.

 

Why do you think we see so many poor production quality CGC 9.6 copies floating around for sale?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Why do you think we see so many poor production quality CGC 9.6 copies floating around for sale?

 

 

Bingo

[supapimp]

[There are few collectors that would voice the petty gripes about the QP of comics (unless severe) 10 years ago as I've seen lately.

 

You're kidding right? When I was a kid, I knew collectors who would look through the rack to find the copy without any white border and centered nicely. I've always done this when buying back issues, and steer clear when the book has a combination of white border/off-cut.

 

 

i agree, i thought all kids did that. i did along with my brother and friends, unless it was the last copy.

[joe_collector]

Hey Bruce, I agree 99% with your comments, with two exceptions:

 

1) No one is really hammering or insulting the people who buy the comics, and in the end, it comes down to the value paid. Would I like to own that CGC 9.6? Maybe, but the price would likely have to be equivalent to a CGC 9.0 with perfect QP for me to bite.

 

I simply cannot rationalize spending several thousands of dollars for a low-QP comic, as I use the CGC grade as a GUIDE, not a be-all, end-all determination of collectibility. As I've said before, a CGC 9.6 isn't necessarily a top-end book, only one that CGC has determined is top-end, by their standards.

 

2) CGC has brought this QP debate on itself, and has sown the seeds of discontent. Before they catered to dealers and deleted the Label Notes, there was little talk of QP, as any important notations were present on the label. Not all, but the biggies were present.

 

Now that CGC no longer uses Label Notes, this has created the need for QP discussions on various HG comics, as CGC is no longer reporting in that area. Wherever there is a market need, something will always come along to fill that vacuum.

[BronzeBruce13]

Why do you think we see so many poor production quality CGC 9.6 copies floating around for sale?

 

 

Bingo

 

This certainly has "some" merit but is overstated quite a bit IMO. In most cases, any collector with private opportunity only manages to take one sweet copy out of circulation for himself (although he may pass others on to friends and good customers to be fair). I also don't think that circle is as enormous as people think, nor many of those involved are actually collectors. Many are just sellers.

 

To clarify something about my upgrading experiences. Since I'm selective from the "get-go" the books in my personal collection that I eventually sell when I find a book I like better in the same grade or find a higher grade are, despite what some may want to believe, very nice copies (rarely POS). The more copies I've bought to compare.. the better the quality of the book I'm releasing (from my standards of course). Often, I've compared 2-6+ copies. Because of this, I feel it is one of the primary reasons I have little trouble selling these books privately without use of ebay or websites. I honestly can't recall anyone being unhappy with one of my released "keepers" even though I'm sure there must have been some that were, and were quiet about it. It makes sense that one would rather buy from a selective collector like myself when he upgrades for obvious reasons. To assume any book that I release is a POS is a fallacy. Often I "have" to let go of books I just don't want to... much to the eternal glee of the buyer. I can't afford to keep them all although I wish I could and the differences are ever so slight in most cases. I may have went through (4) 9.6's of a key before i find a 9.8 that I feel is an improvement... but damn if many of those 9.6's I let go are not leaning upwards themselves. The 9.6 White MP 15 I just let go caused a several hour depression after I shipped it. I was angry I could not keep it too... but there is so much I want still and new books i want pop up like weeds.

 

Elaborating on this, the upgrade strategy I use is MOST FRUSTRATING!! to be honest. I'd estimate that I see a noticeable difference and make a decision I'm very comfortable with (to my tastes)... less than 1/3rd of the time! When that happens, I'm thrilled, but the gap is often not enough to call the discard a POS by most standards... even here on the board. Now the frustrating part is the other 2/3rds... its an ulcer-ridden, stress-filled, torture!!! I could carry on here for an hour or so with all the tough choices I made (and some i regretted). After the discard was in the mail I wanted to track it down, intercept it before it arrived and keep it, or switch it with the book I kept. Trust Me... very difficult and nerve-wracking. Maybe I'll find time to post several scans of the 'hard choices" I've had to make after my website files are all completed... it will be cool to have some polls. I kept the scans of my "lost children" so I can torture myself when I'm In a good mood.

 

One recent example, I have (2) MS 5 9.6 Whites. I just bought another just for the chance to put them side by side. I arranged a pre-sale of the copy I would set free at $200 over the average cost of both. Anyway, in the scan the new copy appears much better centered in both directions, particularly horizontally. So it arrives, I open the safe and get my keeper out, put them side by side, study them both with naked eye and under a 2-3X magnifying lens also... and each one has benefits over the other!!! I hate that.. and its so freakin' common that it goes down like that! The new one is centered better (at least from a front cover perspective), corners are about the same but if i was nitpicking...1 slightly better (under magnification) and 2 a little worse, the color is deeper all around BUT it actually is slightly angle miswrapped to the back. It really does not show itself as a problem from the front. Since the black wraps to the back, there are several micro-stresses and cracks on the spine (particularly where the most stress exists at the fold) that you really can't see with the naked eye and are not indentations. Under magnification they are clearer and are there none-the-less. The previous keeper has a 1/8+" miswrap to the front, ever so slightly better corners, BUT there is no hint of a stress (and no its not just and illusion because of a white spine.. under magnification there are no hints of stress on the white edge). Making a decision was tough... but I kept the new one because from 4-6 inches away... its better. I've had much harder decisions where I actually examined the books 4-5X for 10-20 minutes each and still could not decide, or flip-flopped back and forth. Its great when you can keep both and avoid the problem...but when one has to go... its a nightmare! The stories I could tell.

 

Think of it like this.. you're in a bar. God smiles down on you... a stunning blonde with a kinky reputation that says "no" to nothing wants to go home with you. She can barely speak an interesting thought and chain smokes. BUT then a sweet, interesting brunette with a slightly better figure, awesome smile (but will make you wait) shows interest too, but you like her better. Decide!

Welcome to my world!.. (er, the comic comparison angle). The "chick scenario" (no offense women of the board) is borrowed from Andrew .. that's his world!

[greggy]

Or buy my rejects and don't worry about upgrading!

[mr_highgrade]

[BronzeBruce13]

Or buy my rejects and don't worry about upgrading!

 

TRUE for the most part, but I did find a much nicer Warlock #1 9.6 after I bought yours.. but you are the man

[COI]

Maybe if you didn't buy into all this QP talk, you wouldn't be as selective?

 

Nope. Your points are valid, but miswraps always bothered me, especial when they're "slanted". When I first started buying Silver Age, I was looking to assemble a complete ASM run, and I wasn't particular about grades. But even when I was buying a mid grade copy, I looked for copies that were not necessarily perfectly wrapped, but were at least straight or didn't have too much of the front cover cut off. I don't consider that anal, it's just a personal preference, just like some people not liking date stamps or distributor's ink, or cream pages. Date stamps and/or cream pages don't bother me much, but miswraps do. It has always been that way for me, regardless of what has been talked about on these boards in the last few months. If you went through a box of my low grade stuff, you would see a consistent pattern of "straight" wraps, even though the rest of the copy is a POS.

 

I don't see what's so wrong with having preferences. If I'm paying the same money, why not at least hold out for a copy that suits my tastes? If you hate yellow, are you going to buy a yellow car? Everyone has a right to buy what they like, for whatever reason they like, and it isn't always about "hype". I think Bruce is right in saying collect and let collect.

[COI]

However, it's getting out of hand whereby a 1/32" bit of white showing on the front cover or a tiny bit of the front cover being visible on the back cover or a 3 degree angle mis-cut is treated like it's a crisis of Chernobyl-like proportions.

 

I agree that this is extreme, and I even mentioned in my first post that the whole "QP" thing is exaggerated here. Personally, a little bit of white showing on the spine has never bothered me, as long as it's straight. For me, it becomes ugly when the spine is visible halfway down the book, then suddenly dissappears, making the cover appear quite crooked. That's just ugly to me, and in a case like X-Men #94 which is an expensive book in this grade, I don't think it's anal retentive to want to hold out for a more properly aligned copy.

[greggy]

Yeah...this book has issues with centering on a wide scale. Also, did you notice that Jason seem to be slagging the other copies sold on open auctions this year. I guess he failed to mention that the last copy sold by the "unproven" seller was really well centered!

[COI]

Jason Ewert is a good seller........he's always got nice stuff and his service is excellent. So I don't really understand his need to bag on the other copies sold, inorder to sell his. And what's with the "unproven seller" thing? That's not cool.

[greggy]

Jason Ewert is a good seller........he's always got nice stuff and his service is excellent. So I don't really understand his need to bag on the other copies sold, inorder to sell his. And what's with the "unproven seller" thing? That's not cool.

Yep..that listing seemed out of the ordinary for him. He should just let the books sell itself...for better or worse.