Can we really trust CGC? Why are grades on my books so low? 2 2

[Claudio]

I'm not reading all 10 pages of this. Did he ever tell us who the expert grader was?

 

And dude, let me tell you. I had an Archie #3 that was originally graded at a 5.0 by CGC, cracked out, and re-submitted when I got ahold of it back in September. The book came back at a 1.8. Sure, it was a shock and I felt like I just had my teeth knocked out, but I trust CGC's grading system.

 

Why the huuuuge disparity? That makes me question CGC more than the first guy who seems to have sour grapes. . .

 

 

[Boozad]

I'm not reading all 10 pages of this. Did he ever tell us who the expert grader was?

 

And dude, let me tell you. I had an Archie #3 that was originally graded at a 5.0 by CGC, cracked out, and re-submitted when I got ahold of it back in September. The book came back at a 1.8. Sure, it was a shock and I felt like I just had my teeth knocked out, but I trust CGC's grading system.

 

Why the huuuuge disparity? That makes me question CGC more than the first guy who seems to have sour grapes. . .

 

 

Sounds like it may have been out of the slab for some time before re-submitting?

[TFL-migration]

Brittle Pages perhaps??

[drewincanada]

I am just stating the fact that there are so many problems with grading because of people like you think they know what the experts know.

How about people like your "expert" who think they know what CGC knows? As many others have gently tried to break it to you, your expert may have his/her standards, but they clearly aren't the same as CGC's standards.

 

Better standards and a level playing field helps everyone. It details a clearer plan of what is mint, near mint ect.

CGC has very clear standards, and they are very consistent. When your books are graded, it's not the opinion of one person. Each book is graded by three separate graders – and none of them know what grade the others have given the book – and the final grade the book receives is the majority consensus of these graders. It's very rare for the graders to disagree. Doesn't that tell you something?

 

Let me make this clear a lower grade on one or two is completely acceptable but missing 4 out of 7 is not.

You're right. I think you should fire your personal grader. He/she doesn't know how to grade by CGC's standards.

 

PLEASE, take the time to call CGC and get the graders' notes for your books. You might learn something.

[BaltimoreLauren]

I'm not reading all 10 pages of this. Did he ever tell us who the expert grader was?

 

And dude, let me tell you. I had an Archie #3 that was originally graded at a 5.0 by CGC, cracked out, and re-submitted when I got ahold of it back in September. The book came back at a 1.8. Sure, it was a shock and I felt like I just had my teeth knocked out, but I trust CGC's grading system.

 

Why the huuuuge disparity? That makes me question CGC more than the first guy who seems to have sour grapes. . .

 

 

Sounds like it may have been out of the slab for some time before re-submitting?

 

There's a thread about it here:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2803371#Post2803371

 

But yes, as someone else said, call CGC and ask for the grader notes.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Couple of things...

 

1. The difference between 9.4 and 9.8 is half a grade. Lemme say that again: the difference between 9.4 and 9.8 is half a grade. The vast difference in price is solely a function of the market, and the market's desire for perfection. It is not a function of CGC, nor is it a function of the actual differences between 9.4 and 9.8, which are minimal, and cannot be detected by 75% of comic book readers, and 99.999945% of the general public.

 

2. Your "grader" didn't get it "wrong"...he/she actually did quite well if they came back 9.4 from CGC. There are literally hundreds of "people" who submitted thousands and thousands of books to CGC, especially from 2000-2003, who expected "9.8" and got....7...7.5....8.5....9.2....etc, etc, etc. That's simply because they didn't know how to grade. Nothing more, nothing less. Grading isn't magic. It simply takes experience. Which leads me to....

 

3. You must learn to look for flaws on a near microscopic level. You cannot "gloss over", as so many have done for decades, minute flaws in the 1/32" to 1/16" range, because those are what seperate 9.8s and lesser graded books. That also means you must look at thousands and thousands and thousands of comics.

 

I just had a "virgin-esque" overstock find of about 5,000 early-mid (1983-1985) Marvels & DCs that I went through...I spent about 30 hours total, and ended up with about 180 9.8 candidates.

 

Those were just candidates. 5,000 books, untouched since they went into 10 packs 25 years ago...and only came up with about 180 candidates. That's less than 5 percent. And I turned down all the 9.6 candidates because the owner wanted $1 each (which are now 5.0 candidates, cause they went on store shelves in a used book store. ) 9.6 early-mid 80's Marvels don't sell for much over slabbing cost. We'll see how many pass CGC's pre-screen.

 

And just because a particular set of graders thinks a book is a 9.6 doesn't mean it's not a slider (either way, but not both.) On another day, a "high side slider" 9.6 could get a 9.8. Or that "low side slider" 9.6 could get a 9.4. Or, a middle of the road 9.6 could conceivably get a 9.8 OR a 9.4 (not likely, but certainly possible.) THAT'S the subjectivity of grading. What you won't get, and won't the OP doesn't seem to understand, is a 4.5 book...without having any work done to it....resubbed and come back a 9.2.

 

And I've seen plenty of sellers with a straight face try to sell 4.5 books as 9.2....they just use the nomenclature instead.

 

When everyone stops being obsessed with having that ".8, .9, or 0.0" after the first digit in the left hand corner, the market will level off and stabilize.

 

It's happened twice before, there's no reason it's not gonna happen now.

[seanfingh]

I'm not reading all 10 pages of this. Did he ever tell us who the expert grader was?

 

And dude, let me tell you. I had an Archie #3 that was originally graded at a 5.0 by CGC, cracked out, and re-submitted when I got ahold of it back in September. The book came back at a 1.8. Sure, it was a shock and I felt like I just had my teeth knocked out, but I trust CGC's grading system.

 

Why the huuuuge disparity? That makes me question CGC more than the first guy who seems to have sour grapes. . .

 

 

Brittle pages

[Jumpmaster]

I think the problem here is that the "Professional Grader" is the OPs dealer and wants to keep his customer happy, therefore he overgraded the books for him and when they came back from CGC, the dealer did not want to look bad so he has to say something bad about CGC. I am no professional grader, I cannot tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, thats how small the differences are. That is why I rely on CGC.

[jduran1]

New management and new grading standards according to my deep throat contact. The value of keys bronze and silver that are 9.8 now will surely go up in value gradually as the industry figures this out. Or they could go down. Unlike PGX who grades books 9.9 no matter what.. There is an ebayer this week who has 200+ 9.9 books for sale.

 

So this begs for a solution. The industries top comic leaders need to get with CGC like they did in the beginning and work with them on what will be the approprite grading for each level. We can't have all management who are all accountants setting grades for our books.

Edited December 27, 2008 by jduran1

[GSR]

I would venture your "expert grader" really doesn't know what CGC is looking for. You say he missed 4 out of 7 books. That suggests to me that what he thinks is a 9.8 isn't in the eyes of CGC. I have learned what this means throught lots of experience.

 

I have submitted in excess of 1000 books to CGC.My average obtaining CGC grades of 9.8 is between 80-90%. Generally on pre-screens I can get close to the 90% range. I have never gotten 100%. I submitted 40 Amazing Spider-Man 539 (First Back in Black book) to CGC and got 39 9.8s. I still have the picture if you want to see it.

 

When I first starting submitting I was getting 9.4s and 9.6s occassionally. You really have to look a book over to insure it is a 9.8. Look at it at a sharp angle with a lot of light, if you see dents, pockmarks or spine stresses (more than 1-2 of 1/32 inch or less), even if they don't break color, you aren't going to get a 9.8. Same goes for corner dings, color rubs and other various dents.

 

As with all things that an art, not a science, grading is subjective, but the key is be consistent. CGC is very rarely inconsistent, but mostly they are on the mark. If you want 9.8 grades and the monetary benefits that follow you need to learn what make a CGC 9.8. You should seek out an expert grader that has a good track history with CGC. Feel free to contact me if you need some help. I can provide references such as the guy who produced only the SECOND GI Joe #21, the Silent Issue, in CGC 9.8.

 

Your suggestions about countrywide locations would only promote more inconsistency and further denigrate the name of CGC. You would start hearing stuff like..."Let's see these books in CGC Midwest, they don't mind corner dings as much as CGC East." Get my drift? GOOD LUCK!!

[nochips]

Matt nelson's grading skills are just fine. I send him books to pre-screen before going to CGC as he only charges $3 a book. It is much better than wasting money using my own grading skills.

Out of the last batch of moderns I sent him, He picked out 30 that had a shot at 9.6 or 9.8

4 came back 9.6

25 came back 9.8 and

1 came back 9.9

 

Dude he ripped you off, you deserve a $$ refund.

Edited January 1, 2009 by nochips

[Extremo Man-migration]

What a joke. I only wish it were a funny joke. =(

 

If there's one internet pet peeve that really irks me, it's when someone blatantly ignores questions over and over again. Important questions mind you.

 

We're left to gather two conclusions about the OP. He's:

A: Mentally challenged, in which case I understand now and I am so very sorry for the harsh responses!

B: On some mission to bad mouth CGC simply because he can't grasp that different people have different standards.

[jkc313]

Interesting thread I'm sorry I didn't see sooner. Those of you that know me know I've been around a long time and graded hundreds of thousands of books. But.. they were by Overstreet standards that I helped formulate back in the 80's. I was on a grading panel at San Diego before CGC came into existence and I remember Steve Fischler saying he didn't need anyone to tell him how to grade a book.I made the now idiotic statement that I didn't think comic collectors would support slabbing books because they wanted to look at the insides. Couldn't have been more wrong. When CGC came into existence I person_without_enough_empathyed and moaned as they were not using Overstreet standards. Some of the things I complained about were very high grades on books with bad pages and CGC's ignoring of off center cuts. People are now looking at both. But I'm off point. I was and am an expert grader of comics by Overstreet standards. I am not, however, an expert grader based on CGC standards. CGC standards are now accepted by this market. CGC can be off but so can I. I sent the same copy of a She-Hulk 1 in twice got a 9.4 the first time and a 9.6 the second. The book was a NM+ by Overstreet standards but I could easily have graded it NM. CGC looks for things on new books that I simply can't detect. Having submitted hundreds and purchased thousands of CGC graded books, I'm getting better at predicting CGC grades but am not an expert by their standards. I haven't graded thousands of books using their standards and freely admit I'm clouded by the vast number I graded by Overstreet standards. I suspect the "expert" grader this guy is using is someone with a lot of comic experience but not CGC. His expert simply is not a CGC expert. As someone has already pointed out, the difference between a 9.4 and 9.8 on a new book may be microscopic. Don't complain about CGC. They are the new experts and if he wants to complain to anyone it should be to his expert who obviously doesn't know the difference between a 9.4 and 9.8 CGC new comic. Stop complaining and get a new expert or just buy already graded books.

keith contarino

[RockMyAmadeus]

Interesting thread I'm sorry I didn't see sooner. Those of you that know me know I've been around a long time and graded hundreds of thousands of books. But.. they were by Overstreet standards that I helped formulate back in the 80's. I was on a grading panel at San Diego before CGC came into existence and I remember Steve Fischler saying he didn't need anyone to tell him how to grade a book.I made the now idiotic statement that I didn't think comic collectors would support slabbing books because they wanted to look at the insides. Couldn't have been more wrong. When CGC came into existence I person_without_enough_empathyed and moaned as they were not using Overstreet standards. Some of the things I complained about were very high grades on books with bad pages and CGC's ignoring of off center cuts. People are now looking at both. But I'm off point. I was and am an expert grader of comics by Overstreet standards. I am not, however, an expert grader based on CGC standards. CGC standards are now accepted by this market. CGC can be off but so can I. I sent the same copy of a She-Hulk 1 in twice got a 9.4 the first time and a 9.6 the second. The book was a NM+ by Overstreet standards but I could easily have graded it NM. CGC looks for things on new books that I simply can't detect. Having submitted hundreds and purchased thousands of CGC graded books, I'm getting better at predicting CGC grades but am not an expert by their standards. I haven't graded thousands of books using their standards and freely admit I'm clouded by the vast number I graded by Overstreet standards. I suspect the "expert" grader this guy is using is someone with a lot of comic experience but not CGC. His expert simply is not a CGC expert. As someone has already pointed out, the difference between a 9.4 and 9.8 on a new book may be microscopic. Don't complain about CGC. They are the new experts and if he wants to complain to anyone it should be to his expert who obviously doesn't know the difference between a 9.4 and 9.8 CGC new comic. Stop complaining and get a new expert or just buy already graded books.

keith contarino

 

 

I love Dr. Contarino. There's no one I trust in this hobby more than he.

 

(thumbs u

[Jeffro.]

I have several copies of each issue and every girl, I ever dated including my wife was asked to read the Watchmen and tell me what they thought about it. I asked them to read it because it was that important to me... to have them read IMHO one of the greatest stories of all time.

 

Uh yeah.

I love comics and have read/collected them since I was about 5, but I've never felt it necessary to ask my women to read them.

[Mac Man]

I have several copies of each issue and every girl, I ever dated including my wife was asked to read the Watchmen and tell me what they thought about it. I asked them to read it because it was that important to me... to have them read IMHO one of the greatest stories of all time.

 

Uh yeah.

I love comics and have read/collected them since I was about 5, but I've never felt it necessary to ask my women to read them.

 

I do ask her to accept them being in the house.. but read them? Let's not get greedy here people!

[fantastic_four]

I have several copies of each issue and every girl, I ever dated including my wife was asked to read the Watchmen and tell me what they thought about it. I asked them to read it because it was that important to me... to have them read IMHO one of the greatest stories of all time.

 

Uh yeah.

I love comics and have read/collected them since I was about 5, but I've never felt it necessary to ask my women to read them.

 

I do ask her to accept them being in the house.. but read them? Let's not get greedy here people!

 

Whenever the latest issue of Walking Dead comes out, I withhold sex from my girlfriend until she's read it.

[rockman2008]

I have several copies of each issue and every girl, I ever dated including my wife was asked to read the Watchmen and tell me what they thought about it. I asked them to read it because it was that important to me... to have them read IMHO one of the greatest stories of all time.

 

Uh yeah.

I love comics and have read/collected them since I was about 5, but I've never felt it necessary to ask my women to read them.

 

I do ask her to accept them being in the house.. but read them? Let's not get greedy here people!

 

Whenever the latest issue of Walking Dead comes out, I withhold sex from my girlfriend until she's read it.

 

I guess that counts as a "double win" for her when she refuses.

[fantastic_four]

Whenever the latest issue of Walking Dead comes out, I withhold sex from my girlfriend until she's read it.

 

I guess that counts as a "double win" for her when she refuses.

 

Nah...luckily she's a member of the "Sex and the City" generation of women who just gotta have it.

[Bunky Brian]

Interesting thread I'm sorry I didn't see sooner. Those of you that know me know I've been around a long time and graded hundreds of thousands of books. But.. they were by Overstreet standards that I helped formulate back in the 80's. I was on a grading panel at San Diego before CGC came into existence and I remember Steve Fischler saying he didn't need anyone to tell him how to grade a book.I made the now idiotic statement that I didn't think comic collectors would support slabbing books because they wanted to look at the insides. Couldn't have been more wrong. When CGC came into existence I person_without_enough_empathyed and moaned as they were not using Overstreet standards. Some of the things I complained about were very high grades on books with bad pages and CGC's ignoring of off center cuts. People are now looking at both. But I'm off point. I was and am an expert grader of comics by Overstreet standards. I am not, however, an expert grader based on CGC standards. CGC standards are now accepted by this market. CGC can be off but so can I. I sent the same copy of a She-Hulk 1 in twice got a 9.4 the first time and a 9.6 the second. The book was a NM+ by Overstreet standards but I could easily have graded it NM. CGC looks for things on new books that I simply can't detect. Having submitted hundreds and purchased thousands of CGC graded books, I'm getting better at predicting CGC grades but am not an expert by their standards. I haven't graded thousands of books using their standards and freely admit I'm clouded by the vast number I graded by Overstreet standards. I suspect the "expert" grader this guy is using is someone with a lot of comic experience but not CGC. His expert simply is not a CGC expert. As someone has already pointed out, the difference between a 9.4 and 9.8 on a new book may be microscopic. Don't complain about CGC. They are the new experts and if he wants to complain to anyone it should be to his expert who obviously doesn't know the difference between a 9.4 and 9.8 CGC new comic. Stop complaining and get a new expert or just buy already graded books.

keith contarino

The almighty Dr Keith, Luv you brother, Bunky Bri