TMNT #1 Club 19 19

[LDarkseid1]

1 hour ago, TMNT said:

This book, like most TMNT collectibles (comics, comic art, toys, etc.) has been undervalued for years. So it makes sense that at some point prices would increase. To those that think its completely due to market manipulation, I think you're wrong. There is legit demand. But to those that think its just demand, you're wrong too. There is absolutely at least some manipulation going on when you have any item (be it a stock, comic book, etc.) that has seen the amounts market gyrations going on that we've seen lately. And with a book like this, where there are only a few hundred graded out there, it'd be relatively easy to do. Without a doubt there are a number of speculators on this book (including people here on the boards) that are also taking part in moving the needle buy buying multiples of the book at any price. 

So what is going on here? Is it because of the "rule of 30" where it being a 36 year book and it was due to a nostalgic increase Maybe, but it was just a 35 year book and we didn't see this going on, even with a fresh comic and tv show. Is it because of Seth Rogen movie hype? Puhlease...no one knows about this or cares and again, we've not seen anything like this with previous big movies. It's not like its about to hit theaters anytime soon. Is it due to limited print run? Well, it's ALWAYS had a limited print, nothing new there. In fact, there are MORE books available now at all grades than there has been before. Perhaps a combination of the above or something else?

So what else has been going on in tandem with this book's meteoric rise? There really is only one thing: Covid. Other investments across the board are seeing record highs as well. People still with jobs are making more money than ever in the markets. And collectibles are on fire as people harken back to the good ole' days and try to buy pieces of their childhood back when things were simpler and maskedless. So that for me is the real wildcard in all this, when Covid ends or gets under control and people can leave their house and  start spending money on vacations, experiences, etc. will this book stay on fire?

I would've expected to see an increase...but not like this. Not where every book in every grade is nearing 5 figures roughly over night. When 4.0 2nd prints are suddenly 1K+ books. Anything in excess, whether too much ice cream or sudden $10,000 shifts in funny books, is generally never a good idea. So where the dust settles will be interesting to see. 

That damn Covid, to blame for everything!

[WolverineX]

2 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

That damn Covid, to blame for everything!

Let's see what happens with Albedo 2

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/modern-age-1980-present-/miscellaneous/albedo-2-signature-series-signed-and-sketch-by-stan-sakai-thoughts-and-images-1984-cgc-nm-mt-98-white-pages/a/7234-92095.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus&fbclid=IwAR08zRsxWR9mCtIBYy1mG0zjsD_SaLl0_qTQCeTwLKaVPat9GmssLsZUlgE

[LDarkseid1]

47 minutes ago, Wolverinex said:

Let's see what happens with Albedo 2

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/modern-age-1980-present-/miscellaneous/albedo-2-signature-series-signed-and-sketch-by-stan-sakai-thoughts-and-images-1984-cgc-nm-mt-98-white-pages/a/7234-92095.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus&fbclid=IwAR08zRsxWR9mCtIBYy1mG0zjsD_SaLl0_qTQCeTwLKaVPat9GmssLsZUlgE

Not that I want to get off topic since this is a strictly TMNT thread, but yeah that one is a beast. Also this sweet 9.4 in the c-link auction, which is already impressive at $9K.

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3DAlbedo%2B2%26ItemType%3DCB%23Item_1418198&id=1418198&itemType=0

[GM8]

49 minutes ago, Wolverinex said:

Let's see what happens with Albedo 2

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/modern-age-1980-present-/miscellaneous/albedo-2-signature-series-signed-and-sketch-by-stan-sakai-thoughts-and-images-1984-cgc-nm-mt-98-white-pages/a/7234-92095.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus&fbclid=IwAR08zRsxWR9mCtIBYy1mG0zjsD_SaLl0_qTQCeTwLKaVPat9GmssLsZUlgE

That sig though. Why?

[LDarkseid1]

17 minutes ago, GM8 said:

That sig though. Why?

I don’t know you think it’s that bad? I didn’t think it was horrible tbh and kind of nice in that upper yellow corner. Does interact with Usagi a little, but only a little.

[Icculus308win]

Yeah not the biggest fan of that cig. Especially with a coveted 9.8 of that book. Yes it is in good place with yellow (just wish kept smaller or no sketch). To each their own. Heck of book no matter what

[WolverineX]

So, everyone who owns this beauty, do you store this horizontal or vertical?  Also, does the mylar bag help around the slab or is the comic already encapsulated in the CGC slab?

@valiantman  any advice?

"

"Just where exactly the belief originated that comic books are subject to less stress when stored upright and will inevitably show spine rolling if kept flat is hard to tell, but in all probability this point of view goes back to the era of pre-conservation consciousness when comic books were kept in the loose stacks mentioned at the outset. In such circumstances (for instance with large piles or comics of different sizes and weight) the fact that the spine side is thicker (accentuated by the two staples used to hold the comic book together) can create a lopsided U which will eventually roll the indivdiual comics into the same shape (hence the term "spine rolling"). There is, however, ample and informed information available which dispells the myth of the absolute imperative for vertical storage.

The Northeast Document Conservation Center (a non-profit regional conservation center in the United States, founded in 1973 and counting amongst its clients the Boston Public Library and Harvard University) advised that although vertical storage in office files or in upright flip-top archival document storage boxes is acceptable for legal-sized or smaller documents, any objects larger than 15" x 9" should be stored flat. This is due to the pull forces which documents stored in an upright position are subject to, and it is safe to assume that what is best practice for larger size documents works out well for comic books as well."

Source: http://www.panelology.info/StoringComics.html

 

And some more nerdy stuff - namely that Mylar bags may help to keep an airtight environment for our dear magazines. According to E. Gerber, one of the leading manufacturers of Mylar, it seems that airtight encapsulation is preferred:

 

"Isn't it bad to completely seal off the comics and make them airtight? The reality is that an airtight environment is the proper environment and by far the best one for preservation. By keeping out the oxygen, moisture and insects, and by keeping the temperature reasonably low, you can provide an environment in which your comics will become "Golden." For example, go to any library that has older volumes. Open any book and figure out why the pages are always browner at the edges and get lighter and whiter as you move towards the middle of the page. The inside of that book has not been in contact with any moisture, fresh re-circulating oxygen or light".

Source: http://www.egerber.com/aboutpreservation2.asp

 

Then there is the great stuff about temperature and humidity, should be about 18 degrees Celcius and about 30 to 40% humidity (better safe than sorry even with the Mylar), I can try to find a few sources on that also if needed :-) And of course the books should not be exposed to UV light - I try to treat mine as vampires, no direct sunlight! ;-)

 

Guess we will see in another 50 years how different methods of comic book preservation hold up - especially on maintaining those pure white pages - and not moving too much down the ladder to OW-W, OW and worse..."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Wolverinex

[GM8]

12 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

I don’t know you think it’s that bad? I didn’t think it was horrible tbh and kind of nice in that upper yellow corner. Does interact with Usagi a little, but only a little.

Yeah, not a fan. I'll never understand why someone who has a beautiful copy of a valuable comic wants the creator to write all over the cover in a sharpie or whatever. It defaces the book in my opinion, even if (insert deity of your choice) signed it. Just my opinion.

[LDarkseid1]

2 hours ago, GM8 said:

Yeah, not a fan. I'll never understand why someone who has a beautiful copy of a valuable comic wants the creator to write all over the cover in a sharpie or whatever. It defaces the book in my opinion, even if (insert deity of your choice) signed it. Just my opinion.

Hey I get it. Everyone has their feelings on this semi-controversial thing to do. Sometimes it adds value, and sometimes it doesn’t. Would I have added it to a book of this caliber, maybe, maybe not. Definitely a risk to the grade which might scare me away lol. I think the best way to have it done is to atleast make it unobtrusive on the cover to anything important to look at. 

[valiantman]

14 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

So, everyone who owns this beauty, do you store this horizontal or vertical?  Also, does the mylar bag help around the slab or is the comic already encapsulated in the CGC slab?

@valiantman  any advice?

There have been debates on the board for years, but I'm a "spines down" guy and I don't think there's any downside to doing "spines down".

[WolverineX]

5 minutes ago, valiantman said:

There have been debates on the board for years, but I'm a "spines down" guy and I don't think there's any downside to doing "spines down".

Nice! Does a myler bag help at all around the slab? Or are comics already encapsulated 

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Wolverinex said:

Nice! Does a myler bag help at all around the slab? Or are comics already encapsulated 

I just leave the bags on there as a buffer against scratches.  I don't think the bags do anything else.

[LDarkseid1]

55 minutes ago, valiantman said:

There have been debates on the board for years, but I'm a "spines down" guy and I don't think there's any downside to doing "spines down".

Spines down haha. Kind of reminds of Ace Ventura: Pet Detective. Laces out Dan!

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[LDarkseid1]

I've been watching Ebay alot lately, and can't help but notice we're now starting to see the market begin to ever so slightly be flooded with copies. New 1st, 2nd and 3rd prints are now being offered up at certain prices with best offer. When that happens and as more and more hit the bay, going to put a cap on what they'll sell for and affect the no reserve auction sales as well. I was waiting for this to happen and it didn't take long. So don't be surprised if you see a sudden level off in the next month imop. Once again, there's no denying this is a super rare book considering the amount printed and how old it is, but if we start getting 10's of copies in all prints added here and there, then this hot streak will come to an end. I definitely think it will stay at a new high though, and not go back down to what it was selling at before whatever made it jump up soo much.

I feel a good example is the guy selling his 2nd print CGC 9.2. He has it for sale as a no reserve auction, but starting at $6500 and with the offer option and noone's going for the $6500 opening bid. Not to say they may not before the auction ends, but seems like it won't happen. I actually think he did a disservice to his auction selling like that and should have just let it go no reserve from a low start. It likely would have sold for about what he's asking, considering 3.0's are finishing at $1300! But I digress lol.

Edited August 25, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[Charleybrown]

On 8/24/2020 at 1:52 PM, TMNT said:

This book, like most TMNT collectibles (comics, comic art, toys, etc.) has been undervalued for years. So it makes sense that at some point prices would increase. To those that think its completely due to market manipulation, I think you're wrong. There is legit demand. But to those that think its just demand, you're wrong too. There is absolutely at least some manipulation going on when you have any item (be it a stock, comic book, etc.) that has seen the amounts market gyrations going on that we've seen lately. And with a book like this, where there are only a few hundred graded out there, it'd be relatively easy to do. Without a doubt there are a number of speculators on this book (including people here on the boards) that are also taking part in moving the needle buy buying multiples of the book at any price. 

So what is going on here? Is it because of the "rule of 30" where it being a 36 year book and it was due to a nostalgic increase Maybe, but it was just a 35 year book and we didn't see this going on, even with a fresh comic and tv show. Is it because of Seth Rogen movie hype? Puhlease...no one knows about this or cares and again, we've not seen anything like this with previous big movies. It's not like its about to hit theaters anytime soon. Is it due to limited print run? Well, it's ALWAYS had a limited print, nothing new there. In fact, there are MORE books available now at all grades than there has been before. Perhaps a combination of the above or something else?

So what else has been going on in tandem with this book's meteoric rise? There really is only one thing: Covid. Other investments across the board are seeing record highs as well. People still with jobs are making more money than ever in the markets. And collectibles are on fire as people harken back to the good ole' days and try to buy pieces of their childhood back when things were simpler and maskedless. So that for me is the real wildcard in all this, when Covid ends or gets under control and people can leave their house and  start spending money on vacations, experiences, etc. will this book stay on fire?

I would've expected to see an increase...but not like this. Not where every book in every grade is nearing 5 figures roughly over night. When 4.0 2nd prints are suddenly 1K+ books. Anything in excess, whether too much ice cream or sudden $10,000 shifts in funny books, is generally never a good idea. So where the dust settles will be interesting to see. 

Well said! Thats all I was saying when I was commenting on the price move on these being unsustainable.

[LDarkseid1]

And there you have it. With sales tax it’s pretty much what I initially said, around $17K or so. Overall solid sale considering before the hype a 9.0 sold for $1K less and a 9.4 sold for around $2K more pre-sales tax.

Edited August 26, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[pubmonkey]

On 8/24/2020 at 1:52 PM, TMNT said:

This book, like most TMNT collectibles (comics, comic art, toys, etc.) has been undervalued for years. So it makes sense that at some point prices would increase. To those that think its completely due to market manipulation, I think you're wrong. There is legit demand. But to those that think its just demand, you're wrong too. There is absolutely at least some manipulation going on when you have any item (be it a stock, comic book, etc.) that has seen the amounts market gyrations going on that we've seen lately. And with a book like this, where there are only a few hundred graded out there, it'd be relatively easy to do. Without a doubt there are a number of speculators on this book (including people here on the boards) that are also taking part in moving the needle buy buying multiples of the book at any price. 

So what is going on here? Is it because of the "rule of 30" where it being a 36 year book and it was due to a nostalgic increase Maybe, but it was just a 35 year book and we didn't see this going on, even with a fresh comic and tv show. Is it because of Seth Rogen movie hype? Puhlease...no one knows about this or cares and again, we've not seen anything like this with previous big movies. It's not like its about to hit theaters anytime soon. Is it due to limited print run? Well, it's ALWAYS had a limited print, nothing new there. In fact, there are MORE books available now at all grades than there has been before. Perhaps a combination of the above or something else?

So what else has been going on in tandem with this book's meteoric rise? There really is only one thing: Covid. Other investments across the board are seeing record highs as well. People still with jobs are making more money than ever in the markets. And collectibles are on fire as people harken back to the good ole' days and try to buy pieces of their childhood back when things were simpler and maskedless. So that for me is the real wildcard in all this, when Covid ends or gets under control and people can leave their house and  start spending money on vacations, experiences, etc. will this book stay on fire?

I would've expected to see an increase...but not like this. Not where every book in every grade is nearing 5 figures roughly over night. When 4.0 2nd prints are suddenly 1K+ books. Anything in excess, whether too much ice cream or sudden $10,000 shifts in funny books, is generally never a good idea. So where the dust settles will be interesting to see. 

This is an excellent analysis and the points are right on. Myself I am less inclined to believe that the pandemic has caused this hype but helped it along. The turtles have been a hot property since the 1980's and I think the pandemic just got everyone sitting quietly enough that we all realized there was something waiting to happen that just hadn't happened yet. If it wasn't going to be because of the pandemic it was coming soon enough as the flood gates were already cracking open. So I agree with TMNT that all of the factors he has wisely mentioned are in play but I think covid is not the cause but simply a factor that has accelerated where the turtles were going to get to in a year or two and the prices we are seeing will continue to rise albeit in a more subtle fashion than doubling overnight.

[manetteska]

8 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

And there you have it. With sales tax it’s pretty much what I initially said, around $17K or so. Overall solid sale considering before the hype a 9.0 sold for $1K less and a 9.4 sold for around $2K more pre-sales tax.

Trying to decipher this. 

Are you saying before the hype 9.0 copies were selling for $15k?

[TMNT]

Yes, I don't mean to imply that covid is THE cause, as like has been mentioned, there are a number of factors that have for a long time been brewing. But the question remains, why now? Why this moment? None of what has been mentioned (low print run, 30 year property, etc.) is new. 

So here's a question for the group:

Had Covid not occurred, do you think prices from Feb - Aug 2020 would have exploded as they have regardless? I'm not asking if down the road would we have got there... I'm taking now, in this moment. If the answer is no, it might be worth considering when investing in this book. Perhaps covid pushed over the edge what would have happened naturally in a few years... Or perhaps covid has people spending in the moment differently than they might once its gone. Either way, knowing that such an outside force is having such a major impact on the movement of the book, its important to consider future price fluctuations when Covid is gone/under control. It's hard to predict under the best of times but moreso in this Covid Era. Those making money in the now, congratulations and enjoy... My suggestion is just to be mindful that there might be more at play than simple "the book is hot hot HOT!!" 

[pubmonkey]

2 minutes ago, TMNT said:

Had Covid not occurred, do you think prices from Feb - Aug 2020 would have exploded as they have regardless?

definitely not, they were rising but on a much lesser curve... Although I really do believe the 2nd prints were way underpriced...not now...but then...