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Show me your Timely's and I'll show you mine. Have a Cigar...
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Started by Timely,

23,018 posts in this topic

Frisco Larson

Frisco Larson

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, sartrexpress said:

Issues in the 20s are most difficult in grade... but my last book to complete the run was #61... probably some of the later issues in any grade are the hardest though... 74 is very tough and one of my favorite classic covers... But my all time favorite Schomburg  cap cover is #28... and my all time favorite of all cap covers is Simon and Kirbys #7 which to my eye inspired AF 15 ..

 I have to give those guys the credit for Caps invention ... which put Marvel on the map..while Stan Lee was just an errand boy... in my mind Cap is Marvel .. MM 1 not as much 

That's interesting that your last Cap was 61. Yes, I agree that some of the later Caps are SO hard to find in grade. For example, your 72 is the lone highest at 8.0, with a trio of 7.0 copies as next best available. I had a nice looking Cap 74 at one time (sold it to Billy) but it had a lot of work on it. 

It's so funny that you say 28 is your favorite Schomburg, because it's always been MY favorite too (friends could back me up on that). In fact, until about a year ago, I had 4 copies each of 27 & 28! Nothing high grade, but when I saw decent copies at affordable prices, I grabbed them. Your awesome displays have inspired me to snap a few pics of some of my Caps (you and I don't fish the same waters grade-wise), but I don't have a rack and my results aren't that great. I'll post 'em anyway. Gotta switch to my phone. Also interesting point on the Cap 7 AF 15 inspiration. Well Kirby did the cover of AF 15, so he was just doing a call-back to a great cover. Until you pointed it out, I'd never noticed that before! Good eye!

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sartrexpress

sartrexpress

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51 minutes ago, Frisco Larson said:

That's interesting that your last Cap was 61. Yes, I agree that some of the later Caps are SO hard to find in grade. For example, your 72 is the lone highest at 8.0, with a trio of 7.0 copies as next best available. I had a nice looking Cap 74 at one time (sold it to Billy) but it had a lot of work on it. 

It's so funny that you say 28 is your favorite Schomburg, because it's always been MY favorite too (friends could back me up on that). In fact, until about a year ago, I had 4 copies each of 27 & 28! Nothing high grade, but when I saw decent copies at affordable prices, I grabbed them. Your awesome displays have inspired me to snap a few pics of some of my Caps (you and I don't fish the same waters grade-wise), but I don't have a rack and my results aren't that great. I'll post 'em anyway. Gotta switch to my phone. Also interesting point on the Cap 7 AF 15 inspiration. Well Kirby did the cover of AF 15, so he was just doing a call-back to a great cover. Until you pointed it out, I'd never noticed that before! Good eye!

The design and action of Cap 7 was groundbreaking ... I think Kirby knew that... he wanted to do Spider-Man but Stan who was once his errand boy gave it to Ditko instead, even though Jack did the cover. it’s always been argued who invented the costume of Spider-Man ... the fact that Jack did the cover makes me assume that he was the one who invented his costume and look... he got no credit for it even to this day... I think we forget or don’t realize that that kind of action and visuals came from Jack Kirby and Cap 7 exemplifies it totally. I started collecting this run way before CGC was invented... I think collectors were more acclimated to condition then because you could see and feel the whole book and the cover wasn’t as important as it is now... when you held an ungraded Allentown or mile high it was like nothing else... even the smell of the paper... as a collector some of that is missed... although I think if I had to start again I would be very happy with a great book in low or mid grade... 

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Frisco Larson

Frisco Larson

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44 minutes ago, sartrexpress said:

The design and action of Cap 7 was groundbreaking ... I think Kirby knew that... he wanted to do Spider-Man but Stan who was once his errand boy gave it to Ditko instead, even though Jack did the cover. it’s always been argued who invented the costume of Spider-Man ... the fact that Jack did the cover makes me assume that he was the one who invented his costume and look... he got no credit for it even to this day... I think we forget or don’t realize that that kind of action and visuals came from Jack Kirby and Cap 7 exemplifies it totally. I started collecting this run way before CGC was invented... I think collectors were more acclimated to condition then because you could see and feel the whole book and the cover wasn’t as important as it is now... when you held an ungraded Allentown or mile high it was like nothing else... even the smell of the paper... as a collector some of that is missed... although I think if I had to start again I would be very happy with a great book in low or mid grade... 

Kirby's work on the interior Cap stories always stood out to me. I too started collecting the Golden Age Cap run quite a bit before CGC (early 90s for me) and Cap 5 then Cap 4 were two of my first Cap purchases. The interior artwork on those first issues was unlike anything I'd seen at the time (I hadn't seen much if any of Lou Fine's work at that point) and the art exploded all over the page, not being confined to panels, spilling from one to the next, figures in the middle of the page, it was bursting with energy and very unique to any of the comics I'd seen (mostly Silver Age) up to that point. It's SUCH a shame that the Simon & Kirby run at Timely was cut short and that they didn't get more time to develop Cap and Bucky as well as creating other villains. 

I agree that a lot is lost in collecting certified comics when compared to the days when they were all raw. I have lots of both, raw & certified books and I purchase a fair amount knowing that I will crack them out once I get them. I've probably cracked out a dozen or so Larsons and a few Church copies. I don't break out super high grade copies but I DO like to find books that but for a defect or two WOULD be high grade and crack them out to enjoy. For example, the Church copy I'll attach to this post (sorry, it's not a Timely) is one that I cracked right out of there, just because I really wanted to get it into my hands, thumb it up and whiff the aroma of that vintage paper. It has all of the same qualities of the other Church copies around it's numbering (most of which graded in the 9.4 range) except this issue has a small piece off of the back cover and a small stain at the bottom right corner. Handling it and the freed Larsons reminds me of those bygone days when you'd see raw pedigrees at San Diego and Chicago shows. 

Exciting 16 Church.JPG

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Cat-Man_America

Cat-Man_America

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, sartrexpress said:

The design and action of Cap 7 was groundbreaking ... I think Kirby knew that... he wanted to do Spider-Man but Stan who was once his errand boy gave it to Ditko instead, even though Jack did the cover. it’s always been argued who invented the costume of Spider-Man ... the fact that Jack did the cover makes me assume that he was the one who invented his costume and look... he got no credit for it even to this day... I think we forget or don’t realize that that kind of action and visuals came from Jack Kirby and Cap 7 exemplifies it totally. I started collecting this run way before CGC was invented... I think collectors were more acclimated to condition then because you could see and feel the whole book and the cover wasn’t as important as it is now... when you held an ungraded Allentown or mile high it was like nothing else... even the smell of the paper... as a collector some of that is missed... although I think if I had to start again I would be very happy with a great book in low or mid grade... 

This is an interesting theory, but history paints a slightly different picture.  Spider-Man was mostly a Steve Ditko concept, but whether Stan Lee signed off on the idea or assigned it, both probably deserve credit.  

The first cover design was not by Jack Kirby.  Stan Lee didn’t like Steve Ditko’s execution of the proposed cover for AF #15.  His version is quite good, but not very dynamic.  Ditko wanted to convey the gangly awkwardness of his costumed teen hero swinging via web.  Alas, his cover was rejected and reassigned to Jack Kirby.  Jack quickly reimagined the same scene as Stan wanted Spidey conveyed on the cover and the rest is history.  Steve Ditko’s unused version is posted below for comparison’s sake.  You decide which works best...

image.thumb.jpeg.1e514051ed0921bd9b19e55478ca47ee.jpegimageproxy.php?img=&key=c846ed7a40be7761

image.jpeg.8eae4b76d86cb4eca84dda898f5cfb4d.jpeg

PS: There is a noteworthy difference in the proportional size of the guy being rescued or captured in both artist’s images.  Ditko depicted this dude as larger and up-front which effectively diminished Spider-Man as an imposing featured character to be reckoned with.

Edited by Cat-Man_America
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sartrexpress

sartrexpress

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Posted (edited)

There’s an interview I remember hearing with stan Lee where he says he originally assigned spider-man to Jack then changed to Ditko .. some people believe Jacks concept came first... including Jack... 

in any case I think we would all agree Kirbys cover is a more successful one and wouldn’t you say it’s very reminiscent of Cap 7? 

Edited by sartrexpress
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Primetime

Primetime

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

This is an interesting theory, but history paints a slightly different picture.  Spider-Man was mostly a Steve Ditko concept, but whether Stan Lee signed off on the idea or assigned it, both probably deserve credit.  

The first cover design was not by Jack Kirby.  Stan Lee didn’t like Steve Ditko’s execution of the proposed cover for AF #15.  His version is quite good, but not very dynamic.  Ditko wanted to convey the gangly awkwardness of his costumed teen hero swinging via web.  Alas, his cover was rejected and reassigned to Jack Kirby.  Jack quickly reimagined the same scene as Stan wanted Spidey conveyed on the cover and the rest is history.  Steve Ditko’s unused version is posted below for comparison’s sake.  You decide which works best...

image.thumb.jpeg.1e514051ed0921bd9b19e55478ca47ee.jpegimageproxy.php?img=&key=c846ed7a40be7761

image.jpeg.8eae4b76d86cb4eca84dda898f5cfb4d.jpeg

PS: There is a noteworthy difference in the proportional size of the guy being rescued or captured in both artist’s images.  Ditko depicted this dude as larger and up-front which effectively diminished Spider-Man as an imposing featured character to be reckoned with.

I'm sure Ditko forever felt severely slighted as his visual costume concept was accepted but he would only get to ink the AF 15 cover. I think both versions are pretty average and neither above and beyond one another. That said. Ditko's first version should have been selected. Alas, that's enough Silver age Ditko talk in the Timely thread :preach:

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Primetime

Primetime

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sartrexpress said:

There’s an interview I remember hearing with stan Lee where he says he originally assigned spider-man to Jack then changed to Ditko .. some people believe Jacks concept came first... including Jack... 

in any case I think we would all agree Kirbys cover is a more successful one and wouldn’t you say it’s very reminiscent of Cap 7? 

Jack was a good solider. He was given the first opportunity to draw Spider-Man, but his version looked very much Captain America like (boots and all) and was not the look that Goodman and Stan was looking for. In fact, Ditko pointed out that Kirby's version of Spidey looked too much like the Fly (1959, Archie book by Joe Simon) and Marvel would risk legal action if they went with Kirby's version. Ditko was given a shot at the design and his was chosen. He just didn't get the nod for the AF15 cover. 

Here is the dead on swipe of Cap 7: 

http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=90911

1D0040A8-36A0-4468-B3EA-B601431C1E60.jpeg

Edited by Primetime
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sartrexpress

sartrexpress

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Primetime said:

Jack was a good solider. He was given the first opportunity to draw Spider-Man, but his version looked very much Captain America like (boots and all) and was not the look that Goodman and Stan was looking for. In fact, Ditko pointed out that Kirby's version of Spidey looked too much like the Fly (1959, Archie book by Joe Simon) and Marvel would risk legal action if they went with Kirby's version. Ditko was given a shot at the design and his was chosen. He just didn't get the nod for the AF15 cover. 

Here is the dead on swipe of Cap 7: 

http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=90911

1D0040A8-36A0-4468-B3EA-B601431C1E60.jpeg

Yes that’s what I remember... but do we have any proof of what Jacks preliminary image was? 

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