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Copper age key issues
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240 posts in this topic

You need to sell me the Dark Horse Presents #10! :wishluck:

 

Sorry brother, no can do. Been looking for it for sooooo long. Collin (comicdey) had an amazing OO run of DHP and the 10 and the 24 both came from it. That baby is locked up in the looong term collection.

 

(tsk)

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yup, I think memory fades, but it is really hard to underestimate the importance of the B&W explosion, the second great wave of independent comic books and a huge boon to LCS (until it busted em. :( ). And of course, TMNT 1 was the landmark comic, (not the first, but the greatest) of the B&WE.

 

Did you read my analysis of that in "What modern will be worth the most in 20 years"...? In my most humble opinion, I think it's dead on balls.

 

:)

 

Link it. :baiting:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3209443&fpart=3

 

(thumbs u

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I think more important perhaps then the explosion of B&W comics in 1984 was the DEATH of mainstream genre books that happened from 1983 to 1988. the last hold outs Horror (House of Mystery), Western (Jonah Hex) & war (Sgt. Rock) all died there as superheros finally assumed absolute supremacy. Yes there were blips like the Nam, Elvira's HOM, etc, but these were LONG running series that were swept away. The reason was simply declining Newstand distribution which could support differing tastes & the rise of the Comic Shop which was all almost all superhero. B&W Explosion was an interesting Blip based on "Comic Collectors" speculating on low print books, but pales in comparison to 20 year runs coming to an end that were bought by the general public. To me Copper is signified by the advent of the dominance of the Direct shop.

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sure I do, that's why I wrote all of that. :)

 

Comics shifted from Mainstream entertainment to Fringe. The B&W explosion was a symptom of this change as well, as it was all direct shop for their sales. I am not saying there was not some great work that was turned out in the explosion, but I just see it as a part of the bigger picture of change.

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Well, alrighty then. :)

 

I've never heard or read anything like that, but hey, it's something new to me.

 

I would suggest that the deaths of long running non-superhero genres were because they were no longer important, and no one was buying them. I agree completely that they were victims of the switch from the newsstand to the Direct market, but I wouldn't put them anywhere near the importance of the B&W explosion.

 

They quietly passed away, unnoticed and unmourned by most.

 

The B&W explosion, however, had a long lasting influence on the American comic book industry, long past the actual "explosion."

 

One of its most important influences was that it brought us the works of creators like Matt Wagner, Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, Stan Sakai, Ron Lim, Vince Locke, Tim Vigil, Eric Larsen, and not least, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, all of whom got their start, or had their most notable work, in Black and White comics, most during the "explosion."

 

It also was the first time since the 1960's that books from companies besides Marvel and DC were really competitive with "the Big Two", at least for a little while. That may not be its greatest claim to fame, but it DID broaden the horizons of quite a few readers into books outside DC and/or Marvel...which, in turn, allowed for a more fertile environment for later companies like Valiant and Image to succeed. Without the B&W explosion, it is doubtful Image would ever have existed, and Valiant may not have been nearly as successful, as readers may not have been as willing to "try new stuff."

 

And, of course, it allowed creators to create and SELL books that DC and Marvel would never have published at the time, so even though there was a lot of drek (mostly self) published, there were a few gems, and some of them went on to be the most influential comics of the entire decade.

 

The same thing happened during the early 90's...comics were so successful, people like Jeff Smith, Terry Moore, Joe Linsner, and Drew Hayes, plus many others, could afford to publish their own creations and have people actually read their stuff. That environment, again, may produce a lot of drek (Silver Sable, anyone?) but it also subsidizes some truly great art, art that would otherwise never see the light of day.

 

How many Matt Wagners, Jeff Smiths, Dave Sims, and others have not been able to create their dreams, simply because the comics publishing industry could barely support the Big Two, much less independents.

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting other impacts the explosion had, which someone else will probably include.

 

So, I tend to think the B&W explosion was far, far more important to comics than the (mostly unheralded) end of long running genre books, but that's just me.

 

 

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A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason.

 

I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion.

 

As a side note, I read all of those B&Ws growing up, and some of my favorite comics of all time are things like Love & rockets, Flaming Carrot & Yummy Fur. I am not looking at these with prejudice against them.

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A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason.

 

I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion.

 

Wait...wait a second...we weren't talking about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, we were talking about the fading away of long running non-superhero genre books.

 

If you're going to bring Swamp Thing into the mix, then that's a whole different argument.

 

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is in a class by itself. No single creator had more influence on the comics industry in the 1980's than Alan Moore, and yes, I'm including Frank Miller.

 

The value and influence of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing CANNOT be overstated. It is the quintessential Copper Age book, the title from which not only multiple different titles sprang, but which also created an entire publishing imprint within the oldest comics publisher on the planet.

 

Without Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, I don't know if there would have been a Dark Knight Returns, a Watchmen, a Sandman, an Animal Man, Preacher....there DEFINITELY would not have been a Hellblazer.

 

Or, if there was, perhaps it would not have been published by DC, and they may have had to wait much longer.

 

While the B&W explosion was certainly important to the industry, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a paradigm shift in the way comics were created, a watershed in comics history. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was more important than any and every B&W published, with the possible exception of Turtles, and then it's a tight call.

 

If one were to date the Copper Age with a definitive start, I can think of NO more qualified SINGLE book than Swamp Thing #21.

 

People didn't realize it then...but that single book changed the industry forever. It is as important to its era as FF #1 is to its.

 

(and please no one make the mistake of thinking I said ST #21 was as important as FF #1. Read that sentence carefully.)

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A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason.

 

I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion.

 

Wait...wait a second...we weren't talking about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, we were talking about the fading away of long running non-superhero genre books.

 

If you're going to bring Swamp Thing into the mix, then that's a whole different argument.

 

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is in a class by itself. No single creator had more influence on the comics industry in the 1980's than Alan Moore, and yes, I'm including Frank Miller.

 

The value and influence of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing CANNOT be overstated. It is the quintessential Copper Age book, the title from which not only multiple different titles sprang, but which also created an entire publishing imprint within the oldest comics publisher on the planet.

 

Without Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, I don't know if there would have been a Dark Knight Returns, a Watchmen, a Sandman, an Animal Man, Preacher....there DEFINITELY would not have been a Hellblazer.

 

Or, if there was, perhaps it would not have been published by DC, and they may have had to wait much longer.

 

While the B&W explosion was certainly important to the industry, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a paradigm shift in the way comics were created, a watershed in comics history. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was more important than any and every B&W published, with the possible exception of Turtles, and then it's a tight call.

 

If one were to date the Copper Age with a definitive start, I can think of NO more qualified SINGLE book than Swamp Thing #21.

 

People didn't realize it then...but that single book changed the industry forever. It is as important to its era as FF #1 is to its.

 

(and please no one make the mistake of thinking I said ST #21 was as important as FF #1. Read that sentence carefully.)

I wholeheartedly agree with everything said in the above post! (thumbs u

 

After all these years, I still believe that Swamp Thing is definitely Moore's most important and most influential work. Without it, the publishing output of the following 10-15 years would've been markedly different and probably not nearly as interesting. Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns are definitely hugely important books with a tremendous influence, but to me they seem pale in comparison with the holy trinity of Swamp Thing, Miller's Daredevil, and Chaykin's American Flagg.

 

And Swamp Thing is the "biggest" of the three! :sumo:

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A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason.

 

I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion.

 

Wait...wait a second...we weren't talking about Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, we were talking about the fading away of long running non-superhero genre books.

 

If you're going to bring Swamp Thing into the mix, then that's a whole different argument.

 

Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is in a class by itself. No single creator had more influence on the comics industry in the 1980's than Alan Moore, and yes, I'm including Frank Miller.

 

The value and influence of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing CANNOT be overstated. It is the quintessential Copper Age book, the title from which not only multiple different titles sprang, but which also created an entire publishing imprint within the oldest comics publisher on the planet.

 

Without Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, I don't know if there would have been a Dark Knight Returns, a Watchmen, a Sandman, an Animal Man, Preacher....there DEFINITELY would not have been a Hellblazer.

 

Or, if there was, perhaps it would not have been published by DC, and they may have had to wait much longer.

 

While the B&W explosion was certainly important to the industry, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was a paradigm shift in the way comics were created, a watershed in comics history. Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was more important than any and every B&W published, with the possible exception of Turtles, and then it's a tight call.

 

If one were to date the Copper Age with a definitive start, I can think of NO more qualified SINGLE book than Swamp Thing #21.

 

People didn't realize it then...but that single book changed the industry forever. It is as important to its era as FF #1 is to its.

 

(and please no one make the mistake of thinking I said ST #21 was as important as FF #1. Read that sentence carefully.)

 

:baiting: excellent analysis. :) I agree completely.

 

Sometimes my ideas are written out in type a bit obtusely.

 

Let me try to clarify.

 

My Initial post was to state that I thought the death of everything but superheros on a mainstream level was of greater importance then the B&W explosion. I tried to explain my reasoning as this

 

the death of all else equated the death of Bronze age in one fell swoop. I equate this very seminal change as the sole determining factor that ends the bronze age. You look at a 1978. 1980 book, 1981 book, 1983 book, all basically the same thing. Then, by 1985 everything looks different.

 

The B&W explosion is one element of why they look different, but jut a part of the whole which also includes things as high & Mighty as Swampy #21, and as now common as the predominance of the mini series, and Prestige formats & Graphic novels.

 

I also made my 1st post a bit worse for the bottle, so it may not have been as clear as I intended, but I was trying to make my case for the end of Bronze/ Beginning of Copper.

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Alan Moore's first Swamp Thing is #20. "Anatomy Lesson" (Issue #21) is where he redefines Swamp Thing's entire existence. (Blowing all of our minds.)

 

It's really a two-part origin story.

 

 

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And #20 was continued from #19, which was continued from #18, etc. It was a long story arc that was essentially wrapped up in #21. In fact, I imagine quite a few readers didn't even notice the difference in writers because it was fairly seamless, wespecially with Bissette & Totleben continuing as artists...

 

And, of course, Alan Moore being Alan Moore, there continued to be elements from Pasko's run prior all the way up to American Gothic. He didn't just ditch what had come before.

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...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else.

 

At least, I hope so. :wishluck:

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...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else.

 

At least, I hope so. :wishluck:

 

Yeah right? JS,F was an awesome comic... Silver Sable suxxorz

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...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else.

 

At least, I hope so. :wishluck:

 

Since his parenthetical immediately followed a reference to 90's drek, it definitely was a reference to the hideous 90's Marvel, Silver Sable, and not the decent 80's Grell book.

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...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else.

 

At least, I hope so. :wishluck:

 

Since his parenthetical immediately followed a reference to 90's drek, it definitely was a reference to the hideous 90's Marvel, Silver Sable, and not the decent 80's Grell book.

That's the way I understood it too.

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...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record.

 

Ummm....what are you talking about?

 

Read the paragraph that came from again, and all will become clear.....

 

The same thing happened during the early 90's...comics were so successful, people like Jeff Smith, Terry Moore, Joe Linsner, and Drew Hayes, plus many others, could afford to publish their own creations and have people actually read their stuff. That environment, again, may produce a lot of drek (Silver Sable, anyone?)
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