Hypothesis: Pressing causes long-term damage to comics 2 2

[whisp]

Good info.

[FFB]

Two sheets is definitely effective to some extent. What I do not know is whether it is *as effective* for the innermost interior pages as it is toward the outer pages (front and back). Common sense tells me that it is not, and this seems to be supported by the aging research that shows that the middle interior pages of a bound volume age at a faster rate than the outer pages the closer you get to the middle of the volume. That is why I always use 5 sheets of Microchamber paper with a GA book - one inside front and back cover, plus one each at 1/4, centerfold, and 3/4 of the interior. I suppose you could interleave a sheet between each wrap, but that would add quite a bit to the thickness of the book and probably is not necessary, especially if your storage environment is good and stable.

 

You're right about the Permalife. Microchamber's site was claiming something like 170X the protection.

 

Scott, do you know whether or not putting only 2 sheets in between the covers is effective at all?

 

Dan

[Ze-man]

 

2) I have HUGE reservations about putting any book in a slab now. That being said, I'm concerned about my books in mylars as well.

 

 

 

I have to admit this one puzzles me.

 

All our comics are on fire(to use a popular term) all we can do is slow the process.

 

So if not stored in a mylar(or any kind of bag that encloses the comic) how else would you store your books? Because to me the paper will eat away at itself regardless, and exposure to the open elements would only accelerate this process compared to what is happening inside a mylar. Not to mention the physical damage that might happen.

 

So you don't want to encapsulate, or mylar your books. What do you suggest as an alternate method? And I am not trying to be snarky, but honestly am curious.

 

That said I think the books we have tucked away in long boxes will outlast all of us, and our kids be they raw, slabbed or bagged as long as the storage environment is stable. While the evidence you posted points to accelerated breakdowns in an enclosed environment, what are the opposite numbers from a page, or comic exposed to the environment without protection.

 

And to close my ramblings, I have long wondered what will happen 20 years from now when a slabbed white paged book is no longer white because of storage related conditions.

[Ze-man]

Two sheets is definitely effective to some extent. What I do not know is whether it is *as effective* for the innermost interior pages as it is toward the outer pages (front and back). Common sense tells me that it is not, and this seems to be supported by the aging research that shows that the middle interior pages of a bound volume age at a faster rate than the outer pages the closer you get to the middle of the volume. That is why I always use 5 sheets of Microchamber paper with a GA book - one inside front and back cover, plus one each at 1/4, centerfold, and 3/4 of the interior. I suppose you could interleave a sheet between each wrap, but that would add quite a bit to the thickness of the book and probably is not necessary, especially if your storage environment is good and stable.

 

You're right about the Permalife. Microchamber's site was claiming something like 170X the protection.

 

Scott, do you know whether or not putting only 2 sheets in between the covers is effective at all?

 

Dan

 

I agree with Scott's approach, if it is cost effective. But am I not mistaken, the main purpose of micro paper in regards to CGC's use of it was to prevent oil transfer and cover tanning? Not interior paper degradation?

 

Hence the size of the sheet which only covers the interior inks, not the entire page.

 

 

[FFB]

Two sheets is definitely effective to some extent. What I do not know is whether it is *as effective* for the innermost interior pages as it is toward the outer pages (front and back). Common sense tells me that it is not, and this seems to be supported by the aging research that shows that the middle interior pages of a bound volume age at a faster rate than the outer pages the closer you get to the middle of the volume. That is why I always use 5 sheets of Microchamber paper with a GA book - one inside front and back cover, plus one each at 1/4, centerfold, and 3/4 of the interior. I suppose you could interleave a sheet between each wrap, but that would add quite a bit to the thickness of the book and probably is not necessary, especially if your storage environment is good and stable.

 

You're right about the Permalife. Microchamber's site was claiming something like 170X the protection.

 

Scott, do you know whether or not putting only 2 sheets in between the covers is effective at all?

 

Dan

 

I agree with Scott's approach, if it is cost effective. But am I not mistaken, the main purpose of micro paper in regards to CGC's use of it was to prevent oil transfer and cover tanning? Not interior paper degradation?

 

Hence the size of the sheet which only covers the interior inks, not the entire page.

 

 

I don't know what CGC's intent was, but it is the best possible thing to use to absorb the offgassing from the comic and to absorb atmospheric pollutants that would otherwise accelerate the degradation of the paper. Also, given CGC's recommendation to change the Microchamber paper every 7 years, I doubt the oil transfer issue was the only reason they did it.

[buttock]

 

2) I have HUGE reservations about putting any book in a slab now. That being said, I'm concerned about my books in mylars as well.

 

 

 

I have to admit this one puzzles me.

 

All our comics are on fire(to use a popular term) all we can do is slow the process.

 

So if not stored in a mylar(or any kind of bag that encloses the comic) how else would you store your books? Because to me the paper will eat away at itself regardless, and exposure to the open elements would only accelerate this process compared to what is happening inside a mylar. Not to mention the physical damage that might happen.

 

So you don't want to encapsulate, or mylar your books. What do you suggest as an alternate method? And I am not trying to be snarky, but honestly am curious.

 

That said I think the books we have tucked away in long boxes will outlast all of us, and our kids be they raw, slabbed or bagged as long as the storage environment is stable. While the evidence you posted points to accelerated breakdowns in an enclosed environment, what are the opposite numbers from a page, or comic exposed to the environment without protection.

 

And to close my ramblings, I have long wondered what will happen 20 years from now when a slabbed white paged book is no longer white because of storage related conditions.

 

You're right, Kenny. There's not a good solution. The experiment even showed that having a mylar enclosed on only two sides was bad, so traditional mylars aren't exempt. I don't have a good answer, but it makes me consider something like de-acidification or using a lot of microchamber paper.

 

But part of my issue is that CGC encapsulation is a long-term thing in most cases, and thus the experiments shown are more applicable. I'm not convinced any of that data helps with pressing, but it seems to raise red flags about putting a book in a long-term holder.

 

Granted, this is in the setting of exposure to heat/moisture, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. But let's just say it's made me do some shopping for microchamber paper.

[whisp]

What is the suggested time for mylars and fullbacks to be switched out to new ones?

 

From my understanding CGC slabs is every 7 years and the cheap bags and boards is something like every 2 years.

[FFB]

What is the suggested time for mylars and fullbacks to be switched out to new ones?

 

From my understanding CGC slabs is every 7 years and the cheap bags and boards is something like every 2 years.

 

You don't need to switch out Mylars and Full Backs. The Mylar sleeves are inert and chemically resistant and the Full Backs have enough calcium carbonate in them to remain alkaline even when kept with a book that is heavily degraded.

[FFB]

 

2) I have HUGE reservations about putting any book in a slab now. That being said, I'm concerned about my books in mylars as well.

 

 

 

I have to admit this one puzzles me.

 

All our comics are on fire(to use a popular term) all we can do is slow the process.

 

So if not stored in a mylar(or any kind of bag that encloses the comic) how else would you store your books? Because to me the paper will eat away at itself regardless, and exposure to the open elements would only accelerate this process compared to what is happening inside a mylar. Not to mention the physical damage that might happen.

 

So you don't want to encapsulate, or mylar your books. What do you suggest as an alternate method? And I am not trying to be snarky, but honestly am curious.

 

That said I think the books we have tucked away in long boxes will outlast all of us, and our kids be they raw, slabbed or bagged as long as the storage environment is stable. While the evidence you posted points to accelerated breakdowns in an enclosed environment, what are the opposite numbers from a page, or comic exposed to the environment without protection.

 

And to close my ramblings, I have long wondered what will happen 20 years from now when a slabbed white paged book is no longer white because of storage related conditions.

 

You're right, Kenny. There's not a good solution. The experiment even showed that having a mylar enclosed on only two sides was bad, so traditional mylars aren't exempt. I don't have a good answer, but it makes me consider something like de-acidification or using a lot of microchamber paper.

 

But part of my issue is that CGC encapsulation is a long-term thing in most cases, and thus the experiments shown are more applicable. I'm not convinced any of that data helps with pressing, but it seems to raise red flags about putting a book in a long-term holder.

 

Granted, this is in the setting of exposure to heat/moisture, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. But let's just say it's made me do some shopping for microchamber paper.

 

But there is a solution and you've got it - Mylar enclosure with Microchamber paper, plus a Full Back for support.

 

As you guys probably know, the accelerated aging tests need to be taken with a grain of salt. Look at how long the paper lasts when aged at 60C (140F) and 50%RH. That's much warmer than any conditions that the paper is going to experience in your house, unless you're keeping it in an uninsulated attic in the summer. As long as temperature and RH are stable and within shouting distance of the "ideal" temperature, and as long as you've got Microchamber paper to absorb atmospheric pollutants and by-products of the book's natural aging, I think it'll be a really long time before the paper ages to an appreciable extent.

 

Granted, your books aren't going to last forever. But there is no reason why properly stored comics can't last 100 years or more. There are still comics from the 1930s with white pages (viz. the Detective Comics #18 in the ComicConnect auction). That's a 71 year old comic book with pages that are still white and supple.

 

The moral of the story is, use common sense and good storage techniques and don't panic. Some of the reading you'll do on accelerated aging will scare the bejeezus out of you - until you realize that 100C is the boiling point of water and that you'd never expose your books to anywhere near those conditions.

[whisp]

Whats RH?

 

 

And It sounds to me like mylar + full backs is the way to go with some extra support from some archival paper. No scs with mylar and fullback either.

[FFB]

Whats RH?

 

 

And It sounds to me like mylar + full backs is the way to go with some extra support from some archival paper. No scs with mylar and fullback either.

 

RH = Relative Humidity.

 

Mylar and Full Back are good, but Microchamber paper (which is better than archival paper) is important too.

[whisp]

Yeah I call mircochamber paper archival paper.

[divad]

Thanks to all who posted information here: Fantastic four, bronzerules, FFB, buttock, and Ze-man - You guys are great!

 

The OP is one of the best written questions I've read posted here on the boards

 

As FFB states as to storage: "The moral of the story is, use common sense and good storage techniques and don't panic."

 

Unfortunately, I personally don't think applying heat and pressure to a comic book falls within that tenant (regardless of what you may read and interpret as emancipating the act).

[divad]

Two sheets is definitely effective to some extent. What I do not know is whether it is *as effective* for the innermost interior pages as it is toward the outer pages (front and back). Common sense tells me that it is not, and this seems to be supported by the aging research that shows that the middle interior pages of a bound volume age at a faster rate than the outer pages the closer you get to the middle of the volume. That is why I always use 5 sheets of Microchamber paper with a GA book - one inside front and back cover, plus one each at 1/4, centerfold, and 3/4 of the interior. I suppose you could interleave a sheet between each wrap, but that would add quite a bit to the thickness of the book and probably is not necessary, especially if your storage environment is good and stable.

 

I think 3 sheets is maximum at CF and covers - that in itself adds enough weight and thickness to the book that handling may cause some structural concerns. The CF and inside covers also have the inherent "space" to accept them.

[ImageMask]

 

Assuming (as I do) that glossy comic book paper reacts the same way as other kinds of paper.........

 

A basic chemistry lecture would do you wonders and the lab so much more............

 

yeah, you the man!

 

[Ze-man]

Mechanical, localized pressing is one example.

 

What kind of defect is this useful on? Every time I've tried any kind of pressing without heat or humidity, it doesn't do jack.

 

Bent overhanging edges and certain hard creases in the white area of the front or back cover - the kinds of defects where a dry mount press oftentimes won't do jack.

 

Exactly

 

I think it might be helpful to add that you can screw down a dry mount press till the staples pop and you will still not get at a hard type crease. More pressure does not mean better results. These types of things are typicaly dealt with locally as Scott mentioned, which means using your hands and hand tools. And I do not mean a tacking iron, which can heat an area up and apply even pressure to a small area but doesn't get at a specific creased area like you can with your hands.

 

This is why many times I have said a book may be "pressed" and never even been in a press.

 

Also, I think(just guessing here) the other pressing thread was pulled same as other "how to spot trimming" threads were pulled. For whatever the reason CGC does not want "how to" type threads, even if they done in an educational manner meant only to discuss a subject.

 

Wonder how long this one will last.

 

[Ze-man]

Also, for hard creases, tacking irons are worse than useless.

 

By hard creases, you mean ones that break fibers? Those are pressable? I figured fiber-breaking creases were permanent damage. Isn't that what the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 (previously an 8.5, now an 8.0) supposedly has on the back that nobody could press?

 

 

Again in my experience a hard crease is not the same as a broken crease. Depending on the quality of the paper, inks and clay a book can have what appears to be a bent, hard crease but in reality it is not broken.

 

A broken crease to me is more like a corner that has been folded back and forth too many times. Yeah pressing might make it sit flat again, but it cannot reset the paper fibers because they have been flexed beyond repair. Besides in most cases these types of creases break color.

 

This to me lies at the heart of what makes up good pressing candidates because I never liked the idea of pressing paper that had weak hinged spots. I am sure there are pressed books out there that if you were to work an area with your hands bending it back and forth it might loosen up again, but then again who sits around doing that to their comics?

 

 

[buttock]

Anybody care to suggest a microchamber paper? I'm looking at the 0.0025 in or the 0.004 in here.

 

 

[Ze-man]

Of the 2 you listed the .25, but I think there are better options.

 

I will go dig through my receipts, I forget where I got the sheets from it has been so long.

 

 

 

[stagedoorjohnny]

My one comment is on the question you raised re the length of time the samples of Springhill Offset paper (an alum rosin sized paper, non-archival quality) experienced in the aging chambers. If you read all of the accompanying articles, it seems that the various samples degraded to a state of brittleness as quickly as 6 hours (in the case of the stacks aged in aluminized PET at 100C and 50%RH) and that the total length of the testing exposure was 90 days for the various samples.

 

 

Springhill Offset is a freesheet, contains no groundwood.