Batman #428 CGC 9.8 How much would it cost my bank? 1 1

[Brandon Shepherd]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 8:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

People under 40 have no emotional attachment to the book the way older folks may.

They weren't buying the story off the stands, and likely weren't active a year later, when folks like you and I started collecting and it was an aspirational $35 wall book at <6 months old. *That's* why I loved the book. The first time I entered a comic shop, the wall books of my dreams were Batman 426 ($45), 427 ($35), 438 ($35), and 429 ($12).

The generation of comic book collectors below us (those who grew up on Walking Dead 1 as their Batman 428 or Harbinger 1 and the Nolan films rather than the Keaton ones) don't have that attachment.

But - putting aside that it's not particularly rare, or a first appearance, or likely to be the basis of a Hollywood movie anytime soon...

The book is well along on its journey to mere footnote because both of its key events have been long-since been nullified by retcon. That's huge. It's a good story, with good art, that was a super-key for a brief period of time. But that time's passed, and will continue to diminish.

Quite the discussion going on here!

Reading this discussion about the impact and relevance of this book and stoyline as it holds up today versus 30 plus years ago reminds me of my time discovering the DC Universe as a kid in mid 90s. I'm not quite 40 yet, but I'm close! I was only 7 when Batman #428 was published. I got started on Batman when the Keaton films were released. I discovered Death in the Family thanks to Knightfall, with Batman #496, Knightfall part 9. The Scarecrow douses Batman with fear gas, but seeing the Joker brings back Jason's death. That planted the seed for me. I also got a coffee table book for Christmas in '95, DC Comics: Sixty Years of the World's Favorite Comic Book Heroes by Les Daniels, which also had a bit about Death in the Family. When Batman Forever came out in '95, the first movie to have Robin, there was also talk about the death of Jason Todd. 

 

[Brandon Shepherd]

Another thing, a lot of Batman issues from this era have second printings, my copy of #425 is a second printing, I believe that were distributed in various multipacks in the late 80s and early 90s (or after 1990?). Is it reasonable to presume that Batman #426-29 were not printed again due to being available as a TPB? You would think since these books sold out that there would be multiple printings. Or was this before DC did second prints for individual issues? 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Still, based on those print runs, it's fair to say Batman 428 had a print run roughly equivalent to that of New Mutants 87, no? And Cap City was what, 40% of the market at the time? Less? That's a fairly large print run relative to a) today's; and b) (more importantly) today's collector base.

 

All the books from prior to 2000 had "fairly large print runs relative to today's." Amazing Spiderman #252 had a "large print run relative to today's", and it's still a valuable issue. Thor #337 had the same. And those were also examples of "inst-hot sellouts."

Print runs are meaningless, other than to establish a starting point for calculating how many may survive. In the case of the three books above, and others, virtually the entire print run survived, so it's a good place to start. For most books, however, it's useless (Action #1, for example, which had a print run of 200,000 or so copies, according to testimony in court by Donenfeld, the publisher, and sold about 135,000 copies. Both numbers have no meaning anymore in establishing extant copies.)

The point is, there are books with "fairly large print runs relative to today's" that are still collected...because there are a lot more collectors than there are buyers of new comics.

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

1) The equivalent books you mention are first appearances, with today's values driven largely by media/movie appearances. Bats 428 isn't. It's the temporary death of character in a storyline that has no more relevance today than a fanciful What If? storyline.

Because Robin's alive and active in DC comics today and has been for >25 years.

And Jason Todd's alive and active in DC comics today, and has been for >15 years.

Robin, as a character, only didn't "exist" for about a year, in between Batman #428 and #442 (or #457, depending on your view.)

I dispute your "no more relevance than a fanciful "What If?" storyline.

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

2) Demographics continue to mitigate against the book.

In another thread you mused about the diminished demand for story-based keys (I think re. Silver Surfer 34-35?). That holds true here as well. Bats 428 is now 31 years old. So if you bought it off the stands, and/or participated in the 1-900 campaign, you're (at least!) pushing 40 years old.

Ok.

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

They weren't buying the story off the stands, and likely weren't active a year later, when folks like you and I started collecting and it was an aspirational $35 wall book at <6 months old. *That's* why I loved the book. The first time I entered a comic shop, the wall books of my dreams were Batman 426 ($45), 427 ($35), 438 ($35), and 429 ($12).

The generation of comic book collectors below us (those who grew up on Walking Dead 1 as their Batman 428 or Harbinger 1 and the Nolan films rather than the Keaton ones) don't have that attachment.

Ok.

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

But - putting aside that it's not particularly rare,

Except that it is in ultra high grade. In 9.8, the book is rare when compared to its contemporaries, and currently competes with ASM #301 in terms of overall rarity...another long indentified "tough book" in 9.8.

In the slab world, "9.8" is a "thing" wholly and totally separate from virtually every other aspect of collecting, and has to always be factored in now. People buy 9.8s of books they would never even own as raw reading copies. With that, here is the previous question which still needs answering: What does "There are still *far* more copies out there remaining to be slabbed, if people cared to do so" mean? Far more 9.8? If so, how many? Put some rough numbers to it; I promise I won't hold you to them if you're off 10-12 years from now.

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

or likely to be the basis of a Hollywood movie anytime soon...

...this may not be the case. Hollywood has already started to (and succeeded in) taking classic storylines and translating them to film. Infinity Gauntlet is the most obvious example.

On 12/13/2019 at 7:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

The book is well along on its journey to mere footnote because both of its key events have been long-since been nullified by retcon. That's huge. It's a good story, with good art, that was a super-key for a brief period of time. But that time's passed, and will continue to diminish.

This is essentially the only contention you make that I don't agree with. I wasn't collecting comics when Batman #428 came out. I have no direct experience with it at that time. I have no direct experience with it as an "ultra hot back issue." The first time I physically saw a copy was probably January or February of 1990...may have been later. By that time, it had cooled off considerably. However...when I learned what it was (by reading the Overstreet updates, CBG, Batman itself, and the like), and realized its significance...I wanted it. 

I wasn't even born when Batman #232 came out. And yet, when I learned that it was Neal Adams art and was considered a key issue...I wanted it (that it was Ra's first appearance wasn't really on anyone's radar in the very early 90s.)

I'm pretty sure the events of #428 have not been "nullified by retcon", as "retcon" is understood, but that's a minor issue. Even if true, many, many events in comics have been "nullified by retcon" and still remain popular. 

The point is that the book is a cornerstone of the Batman mythos, and it's never going to be a "mere footnote" in Batman's history, unless Batman, himself, is relegated to being a mere footnote. It still is...regardless of subsequent events...the single most important Bat-book that exists from the 1980s...in fact, it's probably the most important Bat-book that exists going back to the very early 70s, and well into the 90s, since it had consequences that are still relevant to this very day, 30+ years later. It might even be the most important Bat-book going back to the introduction of Batgirl. It changed the course of the second most famous superhero in history and was a milestone in comics publishing (referring to the public making the decision.) That's never going to go away, despite the changing tastes of the buying public.

People who have no direct connection to Batman #428, or Batman #232, or Batman #171, or Batman #1, or Detective Comics #27...still want those books. I know, because I have to compete with them. 

Now...these specific claims are matters of opinion, not hard claims about numbers and data. They are educated opinions, but they are, nevertheless, opinions rather than statements of fact, like "there are 147 9.8s on the CGC census for this book." So if you want to say "you're wrong" about these opinions regarding the place and importance of this issue to Batman history...that's your right, but it's not really a very strong position to take.

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Brandon Shepherd said:

Another thing, a lot of Batman issues from this era have second printings, my copy of #425 is a second printing, I believe that were distributed in various multipacks in the late 80s and early 90s (or after 1990?). Is it reasonable to presume that Batman #426-29 were not printed again due to being available as a TPB? You would think since these books sold out that there would be multiple printings. Or was this before DC did second prints for individual issues? 

DC did not reprint the "flagship" stories from that era, the books that they reprinted in hardcover/TPB form. Batman #404-407 was released as a hardcover in 1987, and then as a TPB in 1988. #426-429 was reprinted as a TPB almost as soon as the ink was dry on #429. Ten Night wasn't reprinted until 1990, but it never got the multi-pack treatment, either.

#436 has a second printing, but it was a "demand" second printing (the first one that DC had done since the late 30s!) #437-442 also weren't reprinted in single issue form.

[Broke as a Joke]

Looking back 30 years ago, 428 was really just a gimmick.  People calling in to determine the fate of a character; who didn't see that outcome.  This was in the midst of the Wolverine/Punisher antihero explosion.  You just knew people were going to pick death.  

Cool book but I don't see it having a rebound price wise.

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, Broke as a Joke said:

Looking back 30 years ago, 428 was really just a gimmick.  People calling in to determine the fate of a character; who didn't see that outcome.  This was in the midst of the Wolverine/Punisher antihero explosion.  You just knew people were going to pick death.  

Cool book but I don't see it having a rebound price wise.

Didn't it come out that without one guy gaming the system, Jason would have lived? It was very close regardless.

[Brandon Shepherd]

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Didn't it come out that without one guy gaming the system, Jason would have lived? It was very close regardless.

I’ve never heard of that. 
 

According to this DC Universe article, the vote count totaled 10,614, with a margin of 72 votes deciding Robin’s fate.

https://www.dcuniverse.com/news/how-death-family-shook-world/

[Gatsby77]

On 12/14/2019 at 1:50 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

It still is...regardless of subsequent events...the single most important Bat-book that exists from the 1980s...in fact, it's probably the most important Bat-book that exists going back to the very early 70s, and well into the 90s, since it had consequences that are still relevant to this very day, 30+ years later. It might even be the most important Bat-book going back to the introduction of Batgirl. It changed the course of the second most famous superhero in history and was a milestone in comics publishing (referring to the public making the decision.) 

You're kidding, right?

For the 1980s alone Batman 428 isn't in the same league as either The Dark Knight Returns # 1 or The Killing Joke.

I'd think Dark Knight Returns speaks for itself in its impact not only on the popular conception of Batman but on the comics medium as a whole.

But The Killing Joke is a perfect example of what Batman 428 could have been, but was not.

Bolland art, baseline story, modern Joker origin, and grim/gritty adult story aside, the primary difference is: DC stuck with the key event of The Killing Joke.

Barbara Gordon - Batgirl - is paralyzed.

And - unlike Robin, who reappears less than three years later - the story and ramifications or Barbara Gordon's paralysis play out over the next 20+ years.

Yeah - it eventually got retconned out in New 52, but that doesn't negate that the ramifications of that storyline were felt for decades - particularly with Oracle's presence in Birds of Prey.

Meanwhile, both Jason Todd's first appearance and his death are about as important today as Kyle Radnor's first appearance as the new Green Lantern. Fun books, but not nearly as promising or important as they once were.

[Lazyboy]

29 minutes ago, Gatsby77 said:

You're kidding, right?

For the 1980s alone Batman 428 isn't in the same league as either The Dark Knight Returns # 1 or The Killing Joke.

I'd think Dark Knight Returns speaks for itself in its impact not only on the popular conception of Batman but on the comics medium as a whole.

But The Killing Joke is a perfect example of what Batman 428 could have been, but was not.

Bolland art, baseline story, modern Joker origin, and grim/gritty adult story aside, the primary difference is: DC stuck with the key event of The Killing Joke.

Barbara Gordon - Batgirl - is paralyzed.

And - unlike Robin, who reappears less than three years later - the story and ramifications or Barbara Gordon's paralysis play out over the next 20+ years.

Yeah - it eventually got retconned out in New 52, but that doesn't negate that the ramifications of that storyline were felt for decades - particularly with Oracle's presence in Birds of Prey.

Meanwhile, both Jason Todd's first appearance and his death are about as important today as Kyle Radnor's first appearance as the new Green Lantern. Fun books, but not nearly as promising or important as they once were.

You're kidding, right?

I guess all those stories that showed how Batman was haunted by his greatest failure didn't happen, and when Jason returned, it was very clear that the events of Batman 428 hadn't affected him in the slightest.

But yes, The Killing Joke is a huge book with long-lasting ramifications that should not be overlooked. It's not as impactful on Batman specifically as Batman 428, but it does greatly affect him.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

You're kidding, right?

For the 1980s alone Batman 428 isn't in the same league as either The Dark Knight Returns # 1 or The Killing Joke.

I'd think Dark Knight Returns speaks for itself in its impact not only on the popular conception of Batman but on the comics medium as a whole.

But The Killing Joke is a perfect example of what Batman 428 could have been, but was not.

Bolland art, baseline story, modern Joker origin, and grim/gritty adult story aside, the primary difference is: DC stuck with the key event of The Killing Joke.

Barbara Gordon - Batgirl - is paralyzed.

And - unlike Robin, who reappears less than three years later - the story and ramifications or Barbara Gordon's paralysis play out over the next 20+ years.

Yeah - it eventually got retconned out in New 52, but that doesn't negate that the ramifications of that storyline were felt for decades - particularly with Oracle's presence in Birds of Prey.

Meanwhile, both Jason Todd's first appearance and his death are about as important today as Kyle Radnor's first appearance as the new Green Lantern. Fun books, but not nearly as promising or important as they once were.

Not, not kidding.

I'll defer to Lazyboy's post above. He says it as well as I could. I'll just add this one addendum: Dark Knight has had zero impact on the history of the characters. None. It was essentially an Elseworlds story before there were Elsewords stories. Batman #428 set the course of the characters for the next 30 years, to the present day.

Cheers!

Edited December 16, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[MetalPSI]

Just interjecting here, I don't collect Batman myself, but I am wondering if the WB video games, specifically Arkham Knight, follow the comics? I am referring to Arkham Knight being Jason Todd, and Batman had thought Joker had killed him