PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Gotham Kid]

Right, at the same time he was putting people off, not responding to them he was seeking out deals and emailing on craigslist. People from that thread mentioned emailing/messaging him for weeks without a response. He had time for a personal score (so he thought) but no time to at least reassure and use the same amount of time as it would take to contact a guy on craigslist to instead contact the people whose money he was holding while they waited months for the items they purchased.

 

That's the value of the craigslist ad. Not the minutiae of what toys and how much and what he could make, but that his email was working just fine to send messages to everyone but those he owed.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

Regarding the Boards participating in the GoFundMe for Chip, IMO, this is not the first time the Boards have helped somebody out financially when it probably was not justified. My point is that if we are foolish enough to contribute, shame on us. Going forward, I am exercising more caution.

[ChiSoxFan]

Right, at the same time he was putting people off, not responding to them he was seeking out deals and emailing on craigslist. People from that thread mentioned emailing/messaging him for weeks without a response. He had time for a personal score (so he thought) but no time to at least reassure and use the same amount of time as it would take to contact a guy on craigslist to instead contact the people whose money he was holding while they waited months for the items they purchased.

 

That's the value of the craigslist ad. Not the minutiae of what toys and how much and what he could make, but that his email was working just fine to send messages to everyone but those he owed.

 

 

For me, that was the smoking gun, so to speak. E-mails/PM's take the same amount of time to send out, no matter who they're going out to. That strongly suggests purposeful dodging of people he owed.

[Junkdrawer]

Regarding the Boards participating in the GoFundMe for Chip, IMO, this is not the first time the Boards have helped somebody out financially when it probably was not justified. My point is that if we are foolish enough to contribute, shame on us. Going forward, I am exercising more caution.

This is true. Speaking for myself, I never check the lists to see who is on there and avoid doing business with them. I don't know if I have ever done business with a lister here. I guess if I had and then got burned, I'd blame myself.

[topofthetotem]

A vote to protect the commiity is not malice and is frankly rather insulting to those who have voted based on the fact the community's safety is better served by placing him on the HOS list then not.

 

 

Was that directed at me? I attribute no malice to those voting Yes. I was saying that I don't think Chip had the requisite malice that I require for me to vote Yes.

Fair enough.

[comix4fun]

Regarding the Boards participating in the GoFundMe for Chip, IMO, this is not the first time the Boards have helped somebody out financially when it probably was not justified. My point is that if we are foolish enough to contribute, shame on us. Going forward, I am exercising more caution.

 

 

Exactly. For my part I would like to see all of these facts and details be remembered in an way that does not diminish what went on here. Part of not being foolish is being vigilant. But I still put all the shame on the person preying on the good nature of this board. I just want to make sure we remember each and every time someone attempts this so that we can prevent the next one from happening.

[VintageComics]

For the record, I voted for inclusion into the HOS. I did so for two reasons. The first is the criteria laid out in the thread dealing with the Probation List and HOS Rules. It states there "b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender." The bolded part is where there's irrefutable proof that Chip falls into this category.

 

 

I want to address this specific point about Chip being a "multiple offender." I would agree, however, his offense seems to be that he ships late, has poor communication, BUT he will eventually deliver the books that were purchased. I have not heard from anyone that has paid for books and not received the goods (current transactions are still pending as he appears to be in the process of shipping). To me, that behavior is not HOS worthy. It's a nuisance and I wouldn't want to deal with it, but it is not the level of malice that I require for a HOS vote.

 

 

I asked you once earlier today, before the flurry of discussion....where do you place the GoFundMe deception in this entire saga?

 

And for that matter where do you place his disappearance after accepting funds in November followed by his claims of inability to contact anyone or ship anything due to losing his job, etc. but leaping on craigslist opportunities demonstrating both means and time that he denied having?

 

Does serial lying in the midst of business dealings along with attempting to induce monetary donations under false pretenses move the needle at all?

 

It would seem someone who only fulfills his obligations when the hammer is brought down on them and deceives and lies and hides until he's left with no other option is a pretty low bar for honest dealing.

 

I didn't see your post about the GoFundMe fiasco.

 

I participated in that charity thread and I was pissed after more information came out. I felt taken advantage of; however, I don't think his deception was intentional. I think he believed that paying off his paypal loan was part of his emergency. It should have been disclosed where all the money he was asking for would be going, but we also should have asked for a more itemized list from the get go. I thought it was on the shady side, but withholding information is not the same to me as actively providing false information. They're both bad, but the latter is worse. I don't see Chip as the master manipulator that seems to be the consensus. I don't give him that much credit. His tendency to wait until pressure is applied is also troubling, but not decisive for me. The fact is that he is now fulfilling his obligations when his fate is all but sealed on this forum. In other words, he's already been smashed by the hammer this time, but he is still following through. I think his behavior is poor and I wouldn't deal with him without significant safeguards in place, but I don't think his behavior is HOS worthy. I reserve the HOS for people like GoodsNewsComics.

 

Adding my thoughts on the craigslist incident. I don't put much weight in the idea that his searching craigslist proves he had the time to ship his books. It literally takes 5 minutes to do a quick craigslist search and send an email. My emphasis earlier on the value of the hypothetical star wars lot is important here. If the lot was worth $300 and he would have to pay $150 plus driving to acquire it; that is far more damning to me than if the lot was worth $1000 and he could quickly flip it in which case clearing a quick $700 for someone in his current situation would make sense.

 

How about this then - instead of assessing the value of the imaginative Star Wars lot, address the fact that he supposedly doesn't have access to a computer to let his customers know what's going on but does have the computer access to search for stuff on Craigslist.

 

I can only wonder what his defense will be at the next message board or forum where he has problems.

 

I was not aware that he was claiming he didn't have access to a computer. That's some BS on his part and clearly not true. But once again, even taking all of his behavior into consideration, I don't consider him a thief, and that's my criteria.

 

I don't think he ever said he didn't have access to a computer. He sold his computer when he moved out of his last place but he still has a cell phone. You guys can all access the internet from your cell phone, right?

 

On the topic of the HOS, I agree with you that I don't think he technically belongs on the HOS because I reserve that for actual, malice and thievery. Unfortunately, the PL exonerates people once they fulfill their obligations and since there is no other recourse than the HOS it's probably the best option for the community at this point.

 

I want to touch on the topic of the Craigslist ad again because people keep bringing it up. This is not about whether or not the HOS is an option but rather about how board opinion can be emotionally charged, especially when you don't have the whole picture.

 

1st thing people brought up when Brock made his CL post was 'if he was broke, why would he be spending money on action figures?"

 

My first instinct in the thread was that he wasn't buying for himself and that he was buying for a quick flip.

 

People argued that he loved action figures and was addicted to them early in the thread but it didn't ring true to me based on what I knew about Chip.

 

This was Brock's image from the craigslist contact email:

 

At 8:31 pm, I received the following:

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

A few days later I saw this post in Facebook that I'd missed earlier, dated December 31, 2016 at 8:43 PM.

 

Chip's FB post is literally 2 minutes after he contacted Brock.

 

Ugh. I check Craigslist every day for some great find even though I have little free cash. I didn't check until late tonight and find an ad for 45 vintage Star Wars figures (some packaged) posted this morning for $150. I messaged just in case, but damn that's a long time for it to go unclaimed. In an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for not checking in the morning like I usually do.

 

I believe Facebook shows edits so correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that Chip was not buying for his personal collection based on what he wrote.

 

So it seems that the initial reaction of the crowd was wrong and that Chip was not buying the action figures because he was rewarding himself.

 

He was buying because the carrot was too big to resist.

 

When I was completely broke, separated from my ex, emotionally fragile and struggling to make ends meet I spent a lot of time looking for deals to make ends meet. The lure of the 'big score' is always present for some people.

 

I do not have any problem with Chip reaching out for a deal on CL that was potentially going to make him multiples of the $150 outlay in the sense that if he wanted to find someone to lend him $150 to split $1000 it would have been the matter of a phone call to the right person.

 

Therefore, the CL is a non-issue for me.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Yes, it did lure him out of hiding but every one of us would jump at a carrot if it was large enough regardless of the circumstances.

 

Chip's choice to not respond to boardies but to respond to CL was made clear, but that to me is still an act of a person with depression who is not coping well with life circumstances. Not theft.

 

 

[HarveySwick]

#freechip

[Columbia Comics]

Goes MIA for 30+ days

 

Responds to CL ad in less than 24 hours

 

 

Does not compute. Not buying it.

 

 

[comix4fun]

 

Chip's choice to not respond to boardies but to respond to CL was made clear, but that to me is still an act of a person with depression who is not coping well with life circumstances. Not theft.

 

 

 

It's also the act of liars, procrastinators, the lazy, the disrespectful and the irresponsible.

 

 

[Jimmy Linguini]

I don't understand what is happening at all but here is how I see it anyways.

 

You put chip on the HOS nomination because he hasn't shipped customers books he promised and he started to send the books out because he was nominated.

 

Anyone voting no deserves to be on the HOS.

 

Chip is only shipping orders so he's not on the HOS

 

this is the second time this has happened with Chip, right? or am I losing count?

 

Either way him not being on the HOS proves the PL and HOS are a joke.

[Gotham Kid]

Sorry Roy, but were I in a tight spot financially I would think about a job and working hard at maintaining it. And that's all I'd think about. Not quick flips. WTF solution is that ?

[Logan510]

For the record, I voted for inclusion into the HOS. I did so for two reasons. The first is the criteria laid out in the thread dealing with the Probation List and HOS Rules. It states there "b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender." The bolded part is where there's irrefutable proof that Chip falls into this category.

 

 

I want to address this specific point about Chip being a "multiple offender." I would agree, however, his offense seems to be that he ships late, has poor communication, BUT he will eventually deliver the books that were purchased. I have not heard from anyone that has paid for books and not received the goods (current transactions are still pending as he appears to be in the process of shipping). To me, that behavior is not HOS worthy. It's a nuisance and I wouldn't want to deal with it, but it is not the level of malice that I require for a HOS vote.

 

 

I asked you once earlier today, before the flurry of discussion....where do you place the GoFundMe deception in this entire saga?

 

And for that matter where do you place his disappearance after accepting funds in November followed by his claims of inability to contact anyone or ship anything due to losing his job, etc. but leaping on craigslist opportunities demonstrating both means and time that he denied having?

 

Does serial lying in the midst of business dealings along with attempting to induce monetary donations under false pretenses move the needle at all?

 

It would seem someone who only fulfills his obligations when the hammer is brought down on them and deceives and lies and hides until he's left with no other option is a pretty low bar for honest dealing.

 

I didn't see your post about the GoFundMe fiasco.

 

I participated in that charity thread and I was pissed after more information came out. I felt taken advantage of; however, I don't think his deception was intentional. I think he believed that paying off his paypal loan was part of his emergency. It should have been disclosed where all the money he was asking for would be going, but we also should have asked for a more itemized list from the get go. I thought it was on the shady side, but withholding information is not the same to me as actively providing false information. They're both bad, but the latter is worse. I don't see Chip as the master manipulator that seems to be the consensus. I don't give him that much credit. His tendency to wait until pressure is applied is also troubling, but not decisive for me. The fact is that he is now fulfilling his obligations when his fate is all but sealed on this forum. In other words, he's already been smashed by the hammer this time, but he is still following through. I think his behavior is poor and I wouldn't deal with him without significant safeguards in place, but I don't think his behavior is HOS worthy. I reserve the HOS for people like GoodsNewsComics.

 

Adding my thoughts on the craigslist incident. I don't put much weight in the idea that his searching craigslist proves he had the time to ship his books. It literally takes 5 minutes to do a quick craigslist search and send an email. My emphasis earlier on the value of the hypothetical star wars lot is important here. If the lot was worth $300 and he would have to pay $150 plus driving to acquire it; that is far more damning to me than if the lot was worth $1000 and he could quickly flip it in which case clearing a quick $700 for someone in his current situation would make sense.

 

How about this then - instead of assessing the value of the imaginative Star Wars lot, address the fact that he supposedly doesn't have access to a computer to let his customers know what's going on but does have the computer access to search for stuff on Craigslist.

 

I can only wonder what his defense will be at the next message board or forum where he has problems.

 

I was not aware that he was claiming he didn't have access to a computer. That's some BS on his part and clearly not true. But once again, even taking all of his behavior into consideration, I don't consider him a thief, and that's my criteria.

 

I don't think he ever said he didn't have access to a computer. He sold his computer when he moved out of his last place but he still has a cell phone. You guys can all access the internet from your cell phone, right?

 

On the topic of the HOS, I agree with you that I don't think he technically belongs on the HOS because I reserve that for actual, malice and thievery. Unfortunately, the PL exonerates people once they fulfill their obligations and since there is no other recourse than the HOS it's probably the best option for the community at this point.

 

I want to touch on the topic of the Craigslist ad again because people keep bringing it up. This is not about whether or not the HOS is an option but rather about how board opinion can be emotionally charged, especially when you don't have the whole picture.

 

1st thing people brought up when Brock made his CL post was 'if he was broke, why would he be spending money on action figures?"

 

My first instinct in the thread was that he wasn't buying for himself and that he was buying for a quick flip.

 

People argued that he loved action figures and was addicted to them early in the thread but it didn't ring true to me based on what I knew about Chip.

 

This was Brock's image from the craigslist contact email:

 

At 8:31 pm, I received the following:

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

A few days later I saw this post in Facebook that I'd missed earlier, dated December 31, 2016 at 8:43 PM.

 

Chip's FB post is literally 2 minutes after he contacted Brock.

 

Ugh. I check Craigslist every day for some great find even though I have little free cash. I didn't check until late tonight and find an ad for 45 vintage Star Wars figures (some packaged) posted this morning for $150. I messaged just in case, but damn that's a long time for it to go unclaimed. In an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for not checking in the morning like I usually do.

 

I believe Facebook shows edits so correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that Chip was not buying for his personal collection based on what he wrote.

 

So it seems that the initial reaction of the crowd was wrong and that Chip was not buying the action figures because he was rewarding himself.

 

He was buying because the carrot was too big to resist.

 

When I was completely broke, separated from my ex, emotionally fragile and struggling to make ends meet I spent a lot of time looking for deals to make ends meet. The lure of the 'big score' is always present for some people.

 

I do not have any problem with Chip reaching out for a deal on CL that was potentially going to make him multiples of the $150 outlay in the sense that if he wanted to find someone to lend him $150 to split $1000 it would have been the matter of a phone call to the right person.

 

Therefore, the CL is a non-issue for me.

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Yes, it did lure him out of hiding but every one of us would jump at a carrot if it was large enough regardless of the circumstances.

 

Chip's choice to not respond to boardies but to respond to CL was made clear, but that to me is still an act of a person with depression who is not coping well with life circumstances. Not theft.

 

 

I find the bolded part above incredibly insulting. Please do not lump everyone together like that. Just because you're capable of something does not mean everyone else is.

 

[ChiSoxFan]

I don't understand what is happening at all but here is how I see it anyways.

 

You put chip on the HOS nomination because he hasn't shipped customers books he promised and he started to send the books out because he was nominated.

 

Anyone voting no deserves to be on the HOS.

 

Chip is only shipping orders so he's not on the HOS

 

this is the second time this has happened with Chip, right? or am I losing count?

 

Either way him not being on the HOS proves the PL and HOS are a joke.

 

Incorrect.

 

The PL -- or threat of being put on it -- is what apparently prompted Chip to begin fulfilling his obligations. He is currently on it, and in theory, if everyone who nominated him for it agreed that said obligations were met and agreed to his removal, he would be removed. PL cases, in my recollection, almost never go to a vote -- they are between the parties involved.

 

The HOS is a different story altogether. It is a community vote, and the person involved can only be removed by a community vote. And the voting is apparently not over, but judging by most people's comments, he'll be on it as soon as the voting period is over, and will likely stay on it.

 

The only "joke" about either list is when people put making money or getting "cool books" ahead of dealing with reputable people and enabling those who don't deal reputably.

 

If you don't understand what the two lists are or how they function, it's probably not best to make blanket statements about them.

[skypinkblu]

 

 

Yes, it did lure him out of hiding but every one of us would jump at a carrot if it was large enough regardless of the circumstances.

 

Chip's choice to not respond to boardies but to respond to CL was made clear, but that to me is still an act of a person with depression who is not coping well with life circumstances. Not theft.

 

 

About 3 years ago, I bought something from someone I'd dealt with many times before who needed money He never sent the item. His excuse was (when he finally answered) that he didn't have the money to ship the item (it would have cost less than 50 cents) He's now in the HOS.

 

About 2 years ago, I bought something from someone who needed to attend his grandmother's funeral. I had also dealt with him several times. I paid for shipping. He never sent the item. About 6 months later, when I finally tracked him down at his place of work, he said he was out of work eating soup for the summer, so he didn't have the money to ship my item (he was back working then). He eventually paid me back, but it was a struggle. I was very and still am, disappointed.

 

When you get money for something and use it for something else, whether it's a bargain or not..whether you are flipping or not...you are using someone else's funds without their permission. That IS stealing.

 

I can't imagine that you would have done that. You would have shipped the items and might have ASKED someone to lend you the funds to buy something you would flip, but I don't see you as being a thief.

 

You might still be a hippie;) but that's not the same...

 

So maybe it's time to stop trying to excuse what is clearly NOT the kind of behaviour that you'd find acceptable for yourself ...

[Jimmy Linguini]

I don't understand what is happening at all but here is how I see it anyways.

 

You put chip on the HOS nomination because he hasn't shipped customers books he promised and he started to send the books out because he was nominated.

 

Anyone voting no deserves to be on the HOS.

 

Chip is only shipping orders so he's not on the HOS

 

this is the second time this has happened with Chip, right? or am I losing count?

 

Either way him not being on the HOS proves the PL and HOS are a joke.

 

Incorrect.

 

The PL -- or threat of being put on it -- is what apparently prompted Chip to begin fulfilling his obligations. He is currently on it, and in theory, if everyone who nominated him for it agreed that said obligations were met and agreed to his removal, he would be removed. PL cases, in my recollection, almost never go to a vote -- they are between the parties involved.

 

The HOS is a different story altogether. It is a community vote, and the person involved can only be removed by a community vote. And the voting is apparently not over, but judging by most people's comments, he'll be on it as soon as the voting period is over, and will likely stay on it.

 

The only "joke" about either list is when people put making money or getting "cool books" ahead of dealing with reputable people and enabling those who don't deal reputably.

 

If you don't understand what the two lists are or how they function, it's probably not best to make blanket statements about them.

 

Because the PL stops people on the PL from buying or selling?

 

NO. A select group will block them but they still have full reign. I've read this thread enough to understand that.

 

If threat of being put on the HOS is what makes someone ship books after being nominated and people actually vote no to the nomination - the HOS is a joke.

 

Its supposed to warn others not to buy or sell to them on the CGC boards, not to make them ship books they wouldn't otherwise have shipped. Just because he ships books now doens't mean he will in the future which is the exact reason for the HOS.

[comicquant]

Sorry Roy, but were I in a tight spot financially I would think about a job and working hard at maintaining it. And that's all I'd think about. Not quick flips. WTF solution is that ?

 

If I were out of a job and I was worried about my two boys well-being I'd shovel mess with my barehands for minimum wage until something better came around. No question.

[VintageComics]

Sorry Roy, but were I in a tight spot financially I would think about a job and working hard at maintaining it. And that's all I'd think about. Not quick flips. WTF solution is that ?

 

If your career was to be a salesman up until this point then the next job is the next flip.

 

 

 

 

[comicparadox]

Deleted

Edited January 12, 2017 by comicparadox

[VintageComics]

 

I find the bolded part above incredibly insulting. Please do not lump everyone together like that. Just because you're capable of something does not mean everyone else is.

 

 

You know, I read a post from the bottom up and if I think it's Casey I play a little game and bet myself that it is. So far I'm batting pretty strong.

 

It's not about what a person is capable of. It is about how people react in desperation.

 

But thanks for the post and missing the point of mine!