PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Jonnywadd]

I wanted to discuss a recent transaction that I feel has been unclear, perhaps on both parties, but I also believe that I am being treated unfairly as a client.

[porcupine48]

well?

[Jonnywadd]

1 minute ago, Jonnywadd said:

I wanted to discuss a recent transaction that I feel has been unclear, perhaps on both parties, but I also believe that I am being treated unfairly as a client.

A few months back, I decided to venture into maybe using a subscription service with a seller.  The seller guarantees 9.8 slabs.  I was invoiced for 6 9.8 graded books.  I paid the invoice.  At the time of payment the A-C copies of the first issuer were released.  The invoice was for those 3 books (released in March) and the 3 books to be released in April.  I decided to check on the order status 2 1/2 months later when the seller told me that the second set of books were graded, but the first 3 issues were having trouble grading 9.8.  It's been a few more weeks since then and I haven't heard anything, so I decided to ask for a refund.  

The seller does not want to give me a refund.  He wants to keep the money I had paid for the presale because he says it was a deposit.  I would understand this if the terminology was presented on his "services page", but it is not.  Nor has nonrefundable deposit ever been mentioned in any conversations or on his service page.

I have tried speaking with the seller about this because it boils down to not getting the products that the services are supposed to provide.  The seller does not try to resolve this, but tries to tell me what has maybe been confusing in our prior conversations about our transaction.  

It's not that confusing.  I paid an invoice expecting it to be fulfilled in a timely manner.  I don't believe that it was because I don't have any of the books.  The seller also began to submit more books because he thought I was going to continue with the series, but I was never invoiced, discussed, or confirmed this transaction.

Lets talk!

[Jonnywadd]

On 3/15/2017 at 7:19 PM, Jonnywadd said:

Alright sir.  Here's what I wanna do.  I do want those first 6 ( which is actually 1-3).  Let me pay that first 105 and the rest at the end of the month?  Tax returns!

This what we agreed on.  This is what I was invoiced for, although it ended up being issue 1 A-C and issue 2 A-C, not issue 3.

[Jonnywadd]

On 3/15/2017 at 7:20 PM, Jonnywadd said:

I'm planning on doing the entire series.  27 issues I believe.  Plus variants

I did follow that PM up with this message, but nothing was mentioned about this by either of us until today.  He brought this up after I decided I wanted a refund.  In no way do I see this as being contractual, especially because there wasn't any discussion about it nor was there any type of invoicing.  There should definitely be discussion on the sellers part for clarity before moving forward.

[Jonnywadd]

Now, I can see how the second quote might be confusing a little, but there were no steps taken by he seller to confirm anything other than the first 6 books that had been prepaid for.  

But once again this is the kind of stuff that the seller brought up in our conversation about the transaction when the requested refund is really about not getting the books I paid for in a timely manner.  

 

[Jonnywadd]

I guess I'll jump back in here in the morning. 

[comicdonna]

It's my opinion that if the seller can't provide you with the 6 9.8 slabs, you are entitled to a full refund.  The comment about doing the entire series isn't binding, the way it's written. 

 

This is why I'm not a fan of presales. 

[crassus]

5 hours ago, Jonnywadd said:

A few months back, I decided to venture into maybe using a subscription service with a seller.  The seller guarantees 9.8 slabs.  I was invoiced for 6 9.8 graded books.  I paid the invoice.  At the time of payment the A-C copies of the first issuer were released.  The invoice was for those 3 books (released in March) and the 3 books to be released in April.  I decided to check on the order status 2 1/2 months later when the seller told me that the second set of books were graded, but the first 3 issues were having trouble grading 9.8.  It's been a few more weeks since then and I haven't heard anything, so I decided to ask for a refund.  

The seller does not want to give me a refund.  He wants to keep the money I had paid for the presale because he says it was a deposit.  I would understand this if the terminology was presented on his "services page", but it is not.  Nor has nonrefundable deposit ever been mentioned in any conversations or on his service page.

I have tried speaking with the seller about this because it boils down to not getting the products that the services are supposed to provide.  The seller does not try to resolve this, but tries to tell me what has maybe been confusing in our prior conversations about our transaction.  

It's not that confusing.  I paid an invoice expecting it to be fulfilled in a timely manner.  I don't believe that it was because I don't have any of the books.  The seller also began to submit more books because he thought I was going to continue with the series, but I was never invoiced, discussed, or confirmed this transaction.

Lets talk!

Just a couple of questions for the sake of clarification.

When you were first invoiced did you make a partial or full payment for the 6 books you ordered? (I am trying to understand what "deposit" means, is the seller calling it a "deposit" because he thinks you only made a down payment on 6 books or that you ordered more than 6 books?) Please clarify.

Do you know what the seller would mean by saying that the first 3 issues were "having trouble grading 9.8"? Is he saying that those submitted were not making the grade?

Does the seller have (or can you quote) the terms of sale in the first instance?

[crassus]

58 minutes ago, comicdonna said:

It's my opinion that if the seller can't provide you with the 6 9.8 slabs, you are entitled to a full refund.  The comment about doing the entire series isn't binding, the way it's written. 

 

This is why I'm not a fan of presales. 

I agree completely. Presales have been a fountain of troubles. Taking presales for something that may or may not be the case, without having in place a clear and absolute refund,  is gambling.

 

[Jonnywadd]

41 minutes ago, crassus said:

Just a couple of questions for the sake of clarification.

When you were first invoiced did you make a partial or full payment for the 6 books you ordered? (I am trying to understand what "deposit" means, is the seller calling it a "deposit" because he thinks you only made a down payment on 6 books or that you ordered more than 6 books?) Please clarify.

Do you know what the seller would mean by saying that the first 3 issues were "having trouble grading 9.8"? Is he saying that those submitted were not making the grade?

Does the seller have (or can you quote) the terms of sale in the first instance?

Morning.   When I was first invoiced, the seller let me pay half of the invoice and I paid the other half 2 weeks later.  

The seller meant that the books were having trouble making the grade.

[telerites]

6 minutes ago, crassus said:

I agree completely. Presales have been a fountain of troubles. Taking presales for something that may or may not be the case, without having in place a clear and absolute refund,  is gambling.

 

Hi Robert   I don't collect moderns or really anything later than 1975  and personally think chasing and paying for a slabbed 9.8 of book that was just released with high print runs is not much fun but people collect what they like which is fine.  

I can't imagine a seller pre-selling with a definitive guarantee of a 9.8 slab is a non-money making venture.  Didn't Dre get out of the guarantee 9.8 business and also Miracle Comics who used to do it - maybe there are still some out there but seems risky.  Would be interested to see the seller's terms and guarantees.

[crassus]

6 minutes ago, Jonnywadd said:

Morning.   When I was first invoiced, the seller let me pay half of the invoice and I paid the other half 2 weeks later.  

The seller meant that the books were having trouble making the grade.

Top of the morning to you.

So when you paid the first half you had no reason to think you were making a deposit of any kind and the seller had not called it a deposit anywhere in the first invoice, correct?

And when you paid the second half two weeks later you considered yourself as having at that point paid in full what you owed for the 6 books you had ordered, is that correct?

Did the seller at any point in the terms of sale as originally advertised, or at anytime going forward, state a refund policy of any kind?

[Jonnywadd]

3 minutes ago, crassus said:

Top of the morning to you.

So when you paid the first half you had no reason to think you were making a deposit of any kind and the seller had not called it a deposit anywhere in the first invoice, correct?

And when you paid the second half two weeks later you considered yourself as having at that point paid in full what you owed for the 6 books you had ordered, is that correct?

Did the seller at any point in the terms of sale as originally advertised, or at anytime going forward, state a refund policy of any kind?

You are correct.  I had no reason to believe that I was making a deposit.  Yes, I knew that I paid for only the 6 books after I fulfilled paying the invoice.  Let me grab those terms of sale.

[Jonnywadd]

2 minutes ago, Jonnywadd said:

You are correct.  I had no reason to believe that I was making a deposit.  Yes, I knew that I paid for only the 6 books after I fulfilled paying the invoice.  Let me grab those terms of sale.

He wants to give me a partial refund, but would like the send the #2s that did make the grade to me.  I don't want the #2s, if I can't get the #1s to make the grade.

[crassus]

11 minutes ago, telerites said:

Hi Robert   I don't collect moderns or really anything later than 1975  and personally think chasing and paying for a slabbed 9.8 of book that was just released with high print runs is not much fun but people collect what they like which is fine.  

I can't imagine a seller pre-selling with a definitive guarantee of a 9.8 slab is a non-money making venture.  Didn't Dre get out of the guarantee 9.8 business and also Miracle Comics who used to do it - maybe there are still some out there but seems risky.  Would be interested to see the seller's terms and guarantees.

Hi Jeff, a good morning to you, here its raining cats and dogs so I see a long day in front of the computer with too much time on my hands. I agree its all in what is promised (or not) up front. To me presales of something is not in principle a problem, unless, again, there is a chance the buyer can lose their money with nothing to show for it, that sounds too much like my experience of gambling, where I usually ended up with nothing, which is why I avoid gambling.

I think of it this way, if I knew you want a given book in a given grade, and thought I could get one at the next show, and so I said "hey, send me what you are prepared to pay, and if I can find what you want  I'll pick it up for you". Well if I didn't find it you would expect your money back. If I was running a business doing that, and obviously I was putting out costs to create that opportunity for you, than I should bill as a service to start, so "hey, for $x.xx I'll try to get that done for you, but these costs are billable time" etc. I suspect in this case the seller will not dispute that the books can one day be had, it may come down to an argument about time, is the time elapsed reasonable given the expectations?

[comicdonna]

5 minutes ago, Jonnywadd said:

He wants to give me a partial refund, but would like the send the #2s that did make the grade to me.  I don't want the #2s, if I can't get the #1s to make the grade.

That's understandable.  If I ordered and paid for a 6 coarse meal, and was later told I can get everything except the steak, vegetables and desert, I would have no  interest in receiving any of the meal, and expect a full refund. 

[Jonnywadd]

10 minutes ago, comicdonna said:

That's understandable.  If I ordered and paid for a 6 coarse meal, and was later told I can get everything except the steak, vegetables and desert, I would have no  interest in receiving any of the meal, and expect a full refund. 

I have Paypal cases opened now, but like I said, he is only trying to give the partial refund.  He says this but nothing has happened yet.

[Jonnywadd]

Just got a message that the #2s have shipped.  Oh man, what a mess this has turned out to be.

[crassus]

9 minutes ago, comicdonna said:

20 minutes ago, Jonnywadd said:

He wants to give me a partial refund, but would like the send the #2s that did make the grade to me.  I don't want the #2s, if I can't get the #1s to make the grade.

That's understandable.  If I ordered and paid for a 6 coarse meal, and was later told I can get everything except the steak, vegetables and desert, I would have no  interest in receiving any of the meal, and expect a full refund. 

I think this is where it will get tricky. The terms of sale do specify a minimum purchase of 3 issues. Yes, it is assumed this means 3 9.8 copies of a given book, but let's say for the sake of argument this was a 12 issue option, as offered by the seller, and when we got to issue 10 there was a problem, it would be reasonable for the seller to propose a partial refund rather than assume an obligation to accept returns and refunds on 9 books already paid for and delivered. I realize that is not the case here, but if the deal was further advanced it would be relevant to what the seller would consider reasonable in the circumstances. There was that I read no discussion of refunds, either way, as possible or impossible. I did not see any mention of deposits in the terms of sale. So there are several things that remain unclear to me.

This may also suggest the desirability of clarifying how far the Sales Forum rules apply to sales canvassed in other parts of the Boards. There was a reason, and I believe many good reasons, why the sales rules were made to insist upon a clear statement about refunds, yes or no, and if yes on what terms.