PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Jonnywadd]

Just now, BeachBum said:

No - you asked for your money back before I showed you the pics. Let's be clear on this. You can spin this all you want. You wanted a subscription & I told you about the pre-pay based on the number of issues you were requesting. As I indicated it is usually three issues at a time but I would take the six issue pre-pay based on what you were telling me - 1 A, B, C, 2 A,B, & 3. You then notified me that there were in fact three covers as well for issue #2 so I said I would count the pre-pay for those six issues. I take the pre-pay so people don't request things from me and then cut and run. I did not request any additional money when #3 was graded because you still had a credit of three issues.

You asked for the subscription with all Variants.

I gave you time to pay for the pre-pay on these books you asked to subscribe to. Last year at SDCC I hooked you up with that Mystery set on your birthday. Back in September last year you asked me for a book and asked if I could give you some time to pay for it - I tried to help you and said yes and you never responded... a month later you asked me out of nowhere if I still had the book which I didn't because you never responded.

If that doesn't paint me as someone who has tried to help you I don't know what the say - certainly not deserving of you coming on and trying warp the situation in your favor and calling me a "Chump".

Chump was a little much.  I do apologize for that.  Anyway, good luck to ya. 

[Drbearsec]

19 minutes ago, BeachBum said:

So should put you the probation list for attempting to keep the items that were sent to you on your appeal today that PayPal swiftly shot down?

Listen - As I said in the PM thread I'm an easy going guy. If you would have just been clear from the start that you were hedging on the series it would have been easier for both of us but you requested the subscription - I didn't put these items up for sale and then you took them down with an .

I feel like the way you were demanding product so quickly that you were in fact trying to use me to flip them eBay, saw the market wasn't moving in the seller's direction and decided to cut and run. That's the impression you gave me with your PM barrage Monday evening. Asking me to break up payments as a favor and then demanding immediate refund also tells me maybe it was about the money as well. You know full well it was my intention to get you what you asked for but every time you blamed yourself via PM on Monday for the confusion you then immediately threw it back on me. After I told you I was putting my newborn to sleep and going to bed you continued to post PMs where you were talking yourself into jumping into the assumption that I was trying to keep your money and opened a case on me that wasn't necessary. Like I told you Tuesday morning you're the first person in my seventeen years on eBay/PayPal and nine years here on the board to open a PayPal claim other than a few people over the years that have attempted chargeback scams.  The whole collector thing doesn't hold since the easy thing for you to do if you were so in a rush to get the #1s is just to go on eBay and buy them there. Then you would still have the #2s and the #1s and the #3 and the #4, etc.

The fact that you tried to appeal the case on an "Item not described" claim knowing full well you just received the books is really shady as well. I'm the one out money, right now - not you - on the #1s that I was going to re-sub, the #3 that is CGC 9.8 graded, and the #4 that was just picked up.

If you would have come to me in the first place and just said - "Hey, I changed my mind, can we just call it a day and ship out what's graded and refund the rest" none of this would have happened in the first place... and you wouldn't have had to come on here and call me a "Chump."

 

For what's it is worth, although I've only been shopping with him for a few months I've had nothing but positive interactions with Dre.  He's always been quick to respond (even after his new addition came) and willing to work with most situations.  I respect the hell out of him and would use his services any time. 

[BeachBum]

2 minutes ago, Drbearsec said:

For what's it is worth, although I've only been shopping with him for a few months I've had nothing but positive interactions with Dre.  He's always been quick to respond (even after his new addition came) and willing to work with most situations.  I respect the hell out of him and would use his services any time. 

Thank You

BTW - All those Jean Grey 1 Campbell Roadshow SS came in today so all the items you requested in recent sales threads will be going out Monday/Tuesday.

[Drbearsec]

17 minutes ago, BeachBum said:

Thank You

BTW - All those Jean Grey 1 Campbell Roadshow SS came in today so all the items you requested in recent sales threads will be going out Monday/Tuesday.

Sweeeet!  I've been wanting that one most of all!  worthy addition to the PC

[thehumantorch]

33 minutes ago, Jonnywadd said:

Chump was a little much.  I do apologize for that.  Anyway, good luck to ya. 

I think these modern guaranteed graded book sales are rife with danger but if anyone has the focus, ethics and attention to detail to do it right it's Dre.

chump is more than a little much.

[BeachBum]

36 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

I think these modern guaranteed graded book sales are rife with danger but if anyone has the focus, ethics and attention to detail to do it right it's Dre.

chump is more than a little much.

Thank you but just to be clear this didn't happen from a sales thread - this was a subscription request for a hot new title. He requested the books be graded and as all my subscribers know I do my best to fulfill their requests but there are times when print runs make things difficult but even then I still try to make sure I get them every issue graded in the series they are requesting. Some of the Indie publishers are tremendously difficult because of some of the cover stock they use which was part of the problem here.

[thehumantorch]

9 minutes ago, BeachBum said:

Thank you but just to be clear this didn't happen from a sales thread - this was a subscription request for a hot new title. He requested the books be graded and as all my subscribers know I do my best to fulfill their requests but there are times when print runs make things difficult but even then I still try to make sure I get them every issue graded in the series they are requesting. Some of the Indie publishers are tremendously difficult because of some of the cover stock they use which was part of the problem here.

Yes, I knew that.  I understand how this all works and can imagine that there are issues that are difficult to get as 9.8.  I think it's a crazy business model but if anyone can do it it's you.

[revat]

my question would be: what is the policy for when a book simply doesn't can't hit 9.8, even after multiple submissions.  I get that the customer doesn't pay for it, but are they simply left with a hole in their collection forever?The collection hole does seem pretty awkward, especially if its the first issue. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be, but whatever the expectations are or options are, they should be made clear to the buyer and seller well before the subscription is finalized.

[Bird]

4 hours ago, revat said:

my question would be: what is the policy for when a book simply doesn't can't hit 9.8, even after multiple submissions.  I get that the customer doesn't pay for it, but are they simply left with a hole in their collection forever?The collection hole does seem pretty awkward, especially if its the first issue. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be, but whatever the expectations are or options are, they should be made clear to the buyer and seller well before the subscription is finalized.

I agree with this. I think that both buyer and seller have some blame here. Buyer should have been more clear about the length of the subscription and seller should have provided contingency plans in case he could not fulfill promised books and also should have immediately clarified what was meant by "planning" to get whole series. Issue 3 should not have been subbed for the buyer without a clear agreement that he wanted those books. There was too much assumed and implied here by both parties. What paypal says is irrelevant in my opinion, this board holds a higher standard. I myself read some of the buyer's PMs as attempts to be polite and not insult while trying to come to a consensus solution. But they seem to be past that now!

I myself would say that buyer should give seller one last chance at re-subbing for 9.8s on issue 1. If that does not come to fruition I would suggest full refund for all issues. So much left unsaid here, which in the end is seller's responsibility...books that do not hit 9.8 should be refunded by what is the time period? ALL contingencies (#1 fails to grade, but #2 hits; only some of each issue grade out; etc.) should be addressed.

[FineCollector]

1 hour ago, Bird said:

I myself would say that buyer should give seller one last chance at re-subbing for 9.8s on issue 1. If that does not come to fruition I would suggest full refund for all issues. So much left unsaid here, which in the end is seller's responsibility...books that do not hit 9.8 should be refunded by what is the time period? ALL contingencies (#1 fails to grade, but #2 hits; only some of each issue grade out; etc.) should be addressed.

I agree.  Seems like both parties were expecting six 9.8s to be exchanged as part of this contract, regardless of what both parties understood of the payment terms.  If six 9.8s cannot be provided, my uneducated self thinks the contract cannot be fulfilled, and should be voided.

I wouldn't call this probation-worthy, there's no malice or negligence on either side, just a lack of clear terms from the seller, and unclear communication from the buyer.  This is a learning lesson for both.

[comicdonna]

1 minute ago, FineCollector said:

I agree.  Seems like both parties were expecting six 9.8s to be exchanged as part of this contract, regardless of what both parties understood of the payment terms.  If six 9.8s cannot be provided, my uneducated self thinks the contract cannot be fulfilled, and should be voided.

I wouldn't call this probation-worthy, there's no malice or negligence on either side, just a lack of clear terms from the seller, and unclear communication from the buyer.  This is a learning lesson for both.

I agree.  I'm not a fan a presales but, I can see from a sellers point of view about slabbing moderns that he might not be able to sell.  My suggestion would be to do it in the FS section only. There should also be 2 things listed in the sellers rules.

 

1.  It's possible I may not be able to obtain 9.8's for all issues.  If I can't, the buyer has the right to cancel the order in part or in full, and issued a refund.

 

 

2.  There should be a deadline that the seller has to provide a tracking number for the buyer.  If the deadline is not met, the buyer is entitled to a full refund. 

[BeachBum]

2 hours ago, Bird said:

I agree with this. I think that both buyer and seller have some blame here. Buyer should have been more clear about the length of the subscription and seller should have provided contingency plans in case he could not fulfill promised books and also should have immediately clarified what was meant by "planning" to get whole series. Issue 3 should not have been subbed for the buyer without a clear agreement that he wanted those books. There was too much assumed and implied here by both parties. What paypal says is irrelevant in my opinion, this board holds a higher standard. I myself read some of the buyer's PMs as attempts to be polite and not insult while trying to come to a consensus solution. But they seem to be past that now!

I myself would say that buyer should give seller one last chance at re-subbing for 9.8s on issue 1. If that does not come to fruition I would suggest full refund for all issues. So much left unsaid here, which in the end is seller's responsibility...books that do not hit 9.8 should be refunded by what is the time period? ALL contingencies (#1 fails to grade, but #2 hits; only some of each issue grade out; etc.) should be addressed.

Here's some more exchange so it's clearer he was requesting a subscription to the title and not just the first two. You can see below he wanted #3 as well, and indicated after that there were just A covers. He also didn't attempt to cancel anything until after #4 (6/14) came out.

On 1/30/2017 at 10:29 PM, Jonnywadd said:

Dre,

 

So how do we go about this? There is really only one title I am really thinking about subscribing to, but would like all the variants as well. I believe they are just alternate covers and not ratios. The title doesn't start until March and I have to make sure my funds will be right, but I'm pretty sure I can get that figured out. LMK

 

Thanks

Jonathon

 

On 3/15/2017 at 8:01 PM, BeachBum said:

lol, no

just got lost in the shuffle. Then the boards switched over.

Regular covers are $35 for CGC 9.8 And I take a three issue pre-pay per title usually but since there's multiple covers it would probably be six on this one with shipping - that way you would get 1 A, B, C & 2 A, B + 3 when they come out.

I don't charge for fails - it's in my original subscription service thread. I just edited the service update thread so the language in the service update is clearer and linked back to the original thread.

On 3/15/2017 at 9:19 PM, Jonnywadd said:

Alright sir.  Here's what I wanna do.  I do want those first 6 ( which is actually 1-3).  Let me pay that first 105 and the rest at the end of the month?  Tax returns!

On 3/15/2017 at 9:20 PM, Jonnywadd said:

I'm planning on doing the entire series.  27 issues I believe.  Plus variants

 

On 3/19/2017 at 8:06 PM, Jonnywadd said:

I just saw that issue 2 also has A-C covers, so it looks like just issues 1 & 2, A-C.  I read issue 3 has A & B, but after that just A covers.

You can see above that #3 was in the original payment. When he asked for the refund I had four issues already graded for him. 

On 6/19/2017 at 8:44 PM, BeachBum said:

The pre-pay is what I'm talking about - If you look at my sub service I request people pre-pay for a certain amount of issues based on what they are requesting. It's three regular issues at a time. Since you were doing multiple covers I requested the first three based on the number of covers (#1 x3, #2 x2, #3 x1) when you told me #2 had three covers as well I said would keep to the pre-pay we had in place. This way people don't cancel on me or pay for things I've already submitted - which was a problem come late last year. The "deposit" I spoke of was just what you had pre-paid for the issues I had subbed, and was subbing + shipping. I charged you for six regular issues plus shipping.

Putting my newborn to sleep and hitting the sack as well (late nights).

 

Then he went off and assumed I was keeping the books which is what ramped things up on his end.

On 6/19/2017 at 8:46 PM, Jonnywadd said:

So you are saying you are keeping everything?  Money and books?

On 6/19/2017 at 8:50 PM, Jonnywadd said:

That's pretty much what you are saying there.   You will keep the deposit, which is the money I paid for those books and shipping.  That's not happening.  

Then he opened the PayPal case without giving me a chance to even respond to what he was saying.

It's fine. I'm eating it on the #3 which is already graded but hasn't been picked up at CGC, sent out the three books already graded that were here, and refunded on the remaining credits + shipping that he had. I just wanted to move on.

Just to be clear - 95% of people don't come to my service at issue #1, they are already collectors who are looking for an easier way of getting their books in CGC 9.8 rather than picking them up on eBay or self-subbing. I don't say I can get you every issue (there's no guarantee), I just start people with the current issue and go forward. - that's why I say I don't charge for Fails/Rejects. I do however do my best to get the book still graded for them if there is a production issue and do sometimes do back issues to help fill holes in people collections when they ask me too.

If you go back to the original thread from 2012 you do see that I had to take a pause in taking in new subscribers because people were trying to abuse the service by ordering titles through me to flip.

I made an update to the Service update thread to make it clearer to the buyer what is expected of both the subscriber and myself. I had a rash of people jumping ship last year and not paying for things that were graded. Just straight up disappeared on me. Yes, I agree this board holds a higher standard. I started this service in the background for collectors and it was on the honor system so to speak - I didn't charge for the books until the books were graded. But due to people abusing this and the amount of money laid out the policy had to change.

Edited June 24, 2017 by BeachBum

[bababooey]

3 hours ago, comicdonna said:

3 hours ago, FineCollector said:

I agree.  Seems like both parties were expecting six 9.8s to be exchanged as part of this contract, regardless of what both parties understood of the payment terms.  If six 9.8s cannot be provided, my uneducated self thinks the contract cannot be fulfilled, and should be voided.

I wouldn't call this probation-worthy, there's no malice or negligence on either side, just a lack of clear terms from the seller, and unclear communication from the buyer.  This is a learning lesson for both.

I agree.  I'm not a fan a presales but, I can see from a sellers point of view about slabbing moderns that he might not be able to sell.  My suggestion would be to do it in the FS section only. There should also be 2 things listed in the sellers rules.

 

1.  It's possible I may not be able to obtain 9.8's for all issues.  If I can't, the buyer has the right to cancel the order in part or in full, and issued a refund.

 

 

2.  There should be a deadline that the seller has to provide a tracking number for the buyer.  If the deadline is not met, the buyer is entitled to a full refund. 

I think the dealers need to have clarity on the contingencies in their terms, I don't think it's fair for us to try and dictate that a full refund & return of all issues must always be available to buyers of pre-sale slabs - I think both parties need to be prepared for what happens if a comic doesn't make the agreed upon grade but I do believe a hard and fast rule of full refund isn't necessary.

 

[BeachBum]

Another one -

I just want to give the community a warning and a heads up that @CombatVeteran has initiated a chargeback against books he requested be graded back in Mid-March and I had gotten most graded already - three issues of four titles. Some of the titles hadn't even started when requested the subscription. On May 20th he requested a cancellation and full refund even though he knew like five books were back, and a bunch were already at CGC waiting to be graded. When I reiterated this to him he still didn't respond for six weeks, until July 8th - saying nothing about what was sitting here waiting for but instead wondering why I hadn't refunded the whole amount since "I was at no financial loss" (yeah right). I replied and let him know what was here - No response from him - Today I sent him a picture of the nine books already back from CGC waiting to be shipped and a few hours later he initiated a chargeback through his Credit Card company which PayPal informed me of. Right now I have $420 + shipping on hold because of this guy and he won't respond in any timely manner. I've written a long lengthy response to PayPal and talked to them on the phone - I'm not going to ship Merch and have someone keep it and keep the money if the CC company decides in his favor.

For some reason his profile is not coming up anymore - I don't know if it's an error or he has removed himself from the community.

Here are the release dates of all the books I got graded for him as well, by his request, up until the point of request of cancellation -

Ben Reilly 1 - released 4/26/17

Iron Fist 1 - released 3/22/17

Iron Fist 2 - released 4/5/17

Iron Fist 3 - released 5/3/17

Venom 6 - released 4/19/17

Venom 150 - released 5/24/17

Weapon X 1 - released 4/12/17

Weapon X 2 - released 4/26/17

Weapon X 3 - released 5/10/17

 

On 5/10 I informed him the following were graded -

Iron Fist 1 9.8

Weapon X 1 9.8

Venom 6 9.8

Iron Fist 2 9.8

Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider 1 9.8

Weapon X 2 9.8

 

On 5/20 he decided to dump the books back on me and I immediately asked for clarification with no response until July 8th.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by BeachBum

[seanfingh]

I suppose you are going to have to go cash/money order only for new customers so they can't do Paypal/CC chargebacks after they get buyer's remorse.

I wonder if other hobbies have so many people whose eyes are bigger than their stomach and who are willing to renege at the drop of a hat.

 

[thehumantorch]

On 7/17/2017 at 8:48 PM, BeachBum said:

Another one -

I just want to give the community a warning and a heads up that @CombatVeteran has initiated a chargeback against books he requested be graded back in Mid-March and I had gotten most graded already - three issues of four titles.

 

 

I always fall back to a deal is a deal.  You fulfilled your end of the bargain 100% and he has not so this appears probation worthy.

[joeypost]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 0:26 PM, seanfingh said:

I suppose you are going to have to go cash/money order only for new customers so they can't do Paypal/CC chargebacks after they get buyer's remorse.

I wonder if other hobbies have so many people whose eyes are bigger than their stomach and who are willing to renege at the drop of a hat.

 

There are less than honorable individuals in every hobby and enterprise, if we want to go that far.

[comix4fun]

On 7/19/2017 at 11:26 AM, seanfingh said:

I suppose you are going to have to go cash/money order only for new customers so they can't do Paypal/CC chargebacks after they get buyer's remorse.

I wonder if other hobbies have so many people whose eyes are bigger than their stomach and who are willing to renege at the drop of a hat.

 

 

On 8/7/2017 at 0:30 PM, joeypost said:

There are less than honorable individuals in every hobby and enterprise, if we want to go that far.

 

Might I suggest some music for this discussion??

 

[Rich_Henn]

I may need some help here, in light of the new message boards too 

So, I've only once ever before recommended someone for the probation list.

And now I have a second.  And I shouldn't be surprised, what with just two posts to his credit.

But I've given the board member ample time to pay.  The book in question just sits here, no response to PM or email.

@Stef_le_Preux

Stef_le_Preux has been unresponsive for weeks, I've re-sent a paypal invoice twice, plus reminders,  plus email query and in cases like this, it's my experience that said customer typically has no intention on paying.   Initial invoice sent April 19th, with a follow up invoice Aug. 7th after a claim that he never received the first invoice.

Radio silence.   At this point I have no choice but to recommend this person to the probation list.

What's the next step?  I honestly have forgotten, as this is only the second time for me   

[comicdonna]

You need to send him a separate PM Rich, letting him know about the nomination.  I believe he has 72 hours to respond.  Noobs.