PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[seanfingh]

On 3/29/2020 at 3:28 PM, KCOComics said:

If  . . .he's square with everyone he wronged 

 

This is a really really really really BIG if.

[thehumantorch]

37 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

This is a really really really really BIG if.

It's so long ago will we ever know if everyone is square?

[lighthouse]

10 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

It's so long ago will we ever know if everyone is square?

I did a post in 2009 or 2010 about the charitable donation I did of 50,000 comics to Operation Gratitude. That was roughly two years after the 2007 meltdown and I was very clear in that post that if anyone had any outstanding debts that I’d missed (because I was confident there weren’t but allowed for the possibility I was wrong) to please let me know so I could address them right then. No one came forward then, and it was a lot fresher in everyone’s mind at that point. And I’ve made standing offers every couple years when I’ve drifted through here again that I would make good on anything that somehow got missed over the years. 

I’ve never tried to run from my past or hide the temporary harm I caused back then. I earned my custom title. Like an alcoholic who never wants to return to drinking after 13 years sober, I don’t ignore what I did. I wake up every day choosing not to be that guy.

But I wasn’t a Hall of Shame member. I was a Probation List member. The way I read those rules, I’ve made good and am eligible for removal (and have been eligible for over a decade). I’d never asked for the status change because my shop moves enough comics in person that I never planned to do mail order ever again. But now we are likely closed for 3 months. Maybe longer. So I’m here.

[skypinkblu]

2 hours ago, lighthouse said:

I did a post in 2009 or 2010 about the charitable donation I did of 50,000 comics to Operation Gratitude. That was roughly two years after the 2007 meltdown and I was very clear in that post that if anyone had any outstanding debts that I’d missed (because I was confident there weren’t but allowed for the possibility I was wrong) to please let me know so I could address them right then. No one came forward then, and it was a lot fresher in everyone’s mind at that point. And I’ve made standing offers every couple years when I’ve drifted through here again that I would make good on anything that somehow got missed over the years. 

I’ve never tried to run from my past or hide the temporary harm I caused back then. I earned my custom title. Like an alcoholic who never wants to return to drinking after 13 years sober, I don’t ignore what I did. I wake up every day choosing not to be that guy.

But I wasn’t a Hall of Shame member. I was a Probation List member. The way I read those rules, I’ve made good and am eligible for removal (and have been eligible for over a decade). I’d never asked for the status change because my shop moves enough comics in person that I never planned to do mail order ever again. But now we are likely closed for 3 months. Maybe longer. So I’m here.

Did you settle up with the person who proposed you be on the list? AlexH?

[lighthouse]

45 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

Did you settle up with the person who proposed you be on the list? AlexH?

I did indeed. Full refund of his purchase price, and shipped the books out he’d ordered for free. Far too late for the signing event he had planned. And there’s no way to make up that part of it. But a full PayPal refund and free books. 

Thankfully the PM chain does go back that far. 

[skypinkblu]

Do you have a response from AlexH? 

[skypinkblu]

I just checked, he's still active, so what you were told previously would be true, we need to hear from @AlexH

[wombat]

4 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

I just checked, he's still active, so what you were told previously would be true, we need to hear from @AlexH

He has been tagged a few times. I know comics might not be the top of everyone's list these days, but I would think a certain time limit on responding would be appropriate. 

[Get Marwood & I]

4 hours ago, wombat said:

He has been tagged a few times. I know comics might not be the top of everyone's list these days, but I would think a certain time limit on responding would be appropriate. 

If you look at AlexH's profile page, you can see that he is one of those members who do not have a 'Last Visited' date recorded - some members have it, some don't:

So his last visible activity is March the 17th. 

I have no horse in this race, and wasn't here when the probation activity was in course, but my reading is that everything I have seen from Lighthouse shows contrition, good faith, and a desire to move on as a better person. If the only obstacle to that progress is a blessing from AlexH - who may or may not have seen the flags, and may or may not retain strong views on the matter - then I agree that a time limit should be placed on them responding. 

If my reading is correct that one can only be removed from probation with the blessing of those who were wronged, then there is no path for redemption if the wronged member cannot be contacted.

I may not know the history, and I only started reading the posts because Lighthouse posted some variants a while back in one of my threads, so I tend to read when he posts, but I feel he is being persecuted a bit here. We have to give people a chance if they have done everything in their power to put their past indiscretions right. 

[seanfingh]

22 hours ago, lighthouse said:

I did a post in 2009 or 2010 about the charitable donation I did of 50,000 comics to Operation Gratitude. That was roughly two years after the 2007 meltdown and I was very clear in that post that if anyone had any outstanding debts that I’d missed (because I was confident there weren’t but allowed for the possibility I was wrong) to please let me know so I could address them right then. No one came forward then, and it was a lot fresher in everyone’s mind at that point. And I’ve made standing offers every couple years when I’ve drifted through here again that I would make good on anything that somehow got missed over the years. 

I’ve never tried to run from my past or hide the temporary harm I caused back then. I earned my custom title. Like an alcoholic who never wants to return to drinking after 13 years sober, I don’t ignore what I did. I wake up every day choosing not to be that guy.

But I wasn’t a Hall of Shame member. I was a Probation List member. The way I read those rules, I’ve made good and am eligible for removal (and have been eligible for over a decade). I’d never asked for the status change because my shop moves enough comics in person that I never planned to do mail order ever again. But now we are likely closed for 3 months. Maybe longer. So I’m here.

They shouldn't be beholden to come to you with their gruel bowls in their hands so you can dole out their refunds into them.  You should scour the Boards and figure out everyone you f*cked and make them whole.  The passage of time and contrite words do not combine into a magical absolution potion.  

Figure out everyone you screwed over make it right. Post the proof.  Then you should be exonerated and off the PL.  I'm all about fresh starts and forgiveness, but 50000 junk comics and a "come get your refund" post doesn't feed the bulldog. 

You are legendary for your failures. You should be legendary in your recompensatory efforts.

 

[seanfingh]

9 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 if they have done everything in their power to put their past indiscretions right. 

That's a really really really big if.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, seanfingh said:

That's a really really really big if.

Understood. 

[lighthouse]

seanfingh made a legitimate request

So I spent the last four hours doing exactly what he requested, including reading 138 pages of this thread.

Here's the history:

I got way behind on a bunch of shipments in the spring of 2007. Most were made up well before they reached a 30-day mark, but some did go past that. The most egregious of that group was an order from AlexH that included a copy of Flash 123 that he intended to get double-signed at a rare opportunity to do so. I didn't get the book to him in time for his signing, and that pain was far worse than the money related to the transaction. I gave him a full refund AND sent the books he ordered for free, but thirteen years later I am still mad for letting him down.

He put my name up for the Probation List in this post, on June 13, 2007:

In response to AlexH's post, there were multiple replies indicating that folks had received their packages from me as promised, and that I was clearly losing money on the shipments as the postage was astronomical compared to what I was charging for comic bags.

There were no replies indicating that anyone else had any active issues with me that would warrant them adding to AlexH's nomination (unlike many of the ongoing conversations around that time where one member would complain and several others would chime in that they were also waiting).

Within 10 days of that post, I had given him a full refund, and had the books waiting for him to pick up at the post office. Damage was already done for the delay. But I at least satisfied the deal itself. AlexH never responded to any of my PMs, and I don't blame him for being upset. But when he returned from vacation and picked up the books, he did reach out to Divad (who was administrating the Probation List at the time) and let him know that he had received them.

 

When the next round of the Probation List was released later that day, my name was no longer on it.

 

My name does not appear on the Probation List for any of the updates the rest of July or August and into September, as my nomination from AlexH had been "resolved" and there were no other outstanding complaints. Through a dozen updates over several weeks, I am not on the list.

The next time I am nominated is on September 30th, by TheWatcher:

When Angelo nominated me, there was no discussion of me already being on the list in the replies. Because I hadn't been. I had been removed back in early July.

Angelo's nomination was completely valid. He had sent me a box of trade paperbacks in response to a post where I had indicated I was looking to buy them. I received the trades, and I didn't pay him in a timely manner.

After some admittedly humorous threats of roadtrip violence for my transgression, I returned to the Probation List at the update later that day:

I am again on the list for the updates on October 5, 2007 and October 13, 2007.

The update made on October 18, 2007 was the debut of Divad adding dates to the Probation List. When he did his search, he just pulled the first date found for a nomination of a member, which resulted in my status being listed with a June 13, 2007 rather than the correct date of September 30, 2007. That date error was carried forward in every update since, which results in the list appearing to indicate I have been on the PL since June 13, 2007.

After TheWatcher's nomination, there are no additional complaints regarding board transactions with me. No other outstanding transactions had been pending. I had stopped making any transactions with board members well before that.

In the spring of 2008, I set about making amends for any remaining harm I had caused. That led me to make the previously discussed donation of 50,000 comic books to Operation Gratitude. And it led me to go back through my board history where I discovered I had never made good with Angelo. A year after the original transaction I did exactly that. I didn't do it because I was getting ready to start selling again, I did it because I wanted to make sure that 2008-Lighthouse had made everyone whole from what 2007-Lighthouse had done.

Throughout 2007 there were only two complaints registered to the Probation Discussion forum regarding board dealings with me. The one with AlexH and the one with TheWatcher. There were several other buyers who got packages later than they should, but no one else who felt I had gone beyond "understandable" delays.

On June 5, 2008, TheWatcher posted to the board requesting my removal from the Probation List:

Replies were mixed. Some folks agreed with Angelo. Some suggested my name should stay on. As I hadn't made good with Angelo with the intention of restarting board sales (but rather just because doing it was right), I posted that I was fine with being left on the list for the time being.

I sold off the bulk of my remaining collection/inventory to a couple board members later that year, and with the exception of buying the first copy ever sold of Terry Moore's SIP Omnibus (at SDCC during move in one year while I was working the event from the management side), I didn't make a single comic purchase or sale for roughly 8 years from 2008-2016. A streak that didn't end until I started getting ready to open this shop a few years ago.

In reading over the intent of the Probation List, I've been nominated by a total of 2 board members. Both of those board members informed Divad that their transactions had been resolved. I was removed from the list for 3 months after the first one. And I have remained on the list for nearly 12 years after the second nomination was resolved and the other party requested I be removed. Several times in the early stages of the list folks suggested that perhaps names should stay on the list for 30 days or 60 days or 90 days after resolution. But @divad  , who was administering the list in those days, had this to say:

 

I would ask that I be removed.

 

[TheWatcher]

Apparently I was the last person to nominate Lighthouse for the PL. Since he made good on what was owed at the time, I think he should be removed from the list after almost 12 years 

[divad]

5 minutes ago, TheWatcher said:

Apparently I was the last person to nominate Lighthouse for the PL. Since he made good on what was owed at the time, I think he should be removed from the list after almost 12 years 

Take him off the List please. @PovertyRow

[thehumantorch]

45 minutes ago, lighthouse said:

seanfingh made a legitimate request

So I spent the last four hours doing exactly what he requested, including reading 138 pages of this thread.

I would ask that I be removed.

 

Fair enough.  Since it appears all issues have been resolved and nobody else has tabled a complaint I don't see any reason for you to be on the list.

[skypinkblu]

Unfortunately, I remembered this part.

 

Posted June 5, 2008

   Point Five said:

   arexcrooke said:

   TheWatcher said:

So almost a year to the day that Lighthouse was added to the list, he finally sends me payment for the trades. As far as I'm concerned this episode is over and done with. If you would be so kind as to remove his name from the list, Divad.

I would respectfully request that he not be taken off. This episode with Angelo is just one of many over many seperate instances.

Old members will know what has happened with him and can buy accordingly.

New members, who have no knowledge of Lighthouse and his various issues will not be aware.

If this thread is to help make aware or warn the membership here of possible issues with sellers, then I think that his name must remain on the list. If not remaining on the list, then there needs to be a notation somewhere about his previous transgressions.

Arex

Ditto. The way he has jerked around forum members, time and time again, is pretty appalling. And there's enough of a pattern, stretching over years and with the repeated "second chances" he's been granted here, to know that it's not going to suddenly improve.

 

 

 

No worries about that. I have no intentions of doing any mail-order selling any time soon. I may do some buying here and there, and I might complete some private transactions with friends, but you won't be seeing any general offerings from me.

 

Feel free to leave my name on the probation list if you wish. I won't argue that point at all.

 

 

So can you please explain these two statements?  Because one seems to negate the other? 

After TheWatcher's nomination, there are no additional complaints regarding board transactions with me. No other outstanding transactions had been pending. I had stopped making any transactions with board members well before that.

I sold off the bulk of my remaining collection/inventory to a couple board members later that year,

What I remember is that  you were on the list, but continuing to make transactions, whether buying or selling ...and that was upsetting because you didn't seem to care that you were on the list. 
 As I remember it, you were really in Hall of Shame territory at the time. Angelo is kind, there was no reason for you to wait a year to pay him.

Sadly, I agree with Sean, donating books somewhere else doesn't really fit in with the other issues.

Honestly, I'd like to see you stay on the list for 6 months now and if there are no more transgressions (now that you are actively selling here and not doing it behind the scenes) I'd be glad to see you off it, but you never really seemed to abide to the terms of the list the first time. So this would be your real probation.

That would be a real "2nd or 3rd or 5th chance" to me.

 

 

[skypinkblu]

It should be noted that we didn't have a Hall of Shame until May of 2008. So HOS was not an issue during the above mentioned probation, but it was probably the first time it was suggested that someone just be left on the list. Which is what the HOS does.

 

[porcupine48]

6 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

It should be noted that we didn't have a Hall of Shame until May of 2008. So HOS was not an issue during the above mentioned probation, but it was probably the first time it was suggested that someone just be left on the list. Which is what the HOS does.

 

I think ot was tfl that brought that about with the filter fiasco.

BTW there's some flames going on in the nominations section rn.comicdonna getting name called and all

Edited April 5, 2020 by porcupine48
word stuff

[skypinkblu]

1 minute ago, porcupine48 said:

I think ot was tfl that brought that about with the filter fiasco.

BTW there's some flames going on in the nominations section rn.comicdonna getting name called and all

It was AlleyBat if I recall correctly, when he sent Vt Comics newspapers instead of a Batman 1.  I believe  he was the first and when I checked the list before, he was the first on the list. 

I'm not sure what you are talking about with ComicDonna, Jimmers? You lost me there.