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PROBATION DISCUSSIONS
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36,201 posts in this topic

On 10/26/2020 at 3:29 AM, agamoto said:

Columbo Detective GIF - Columbo Detective Confused GIFs

Oh, just one more thing...

Lol, probation huh? You guys are a hoot! Let me restate this as clearly and as succinctly as I can.

1. Seller puts some 30 or so books up for sale worth $15K or so. Plenty of rich detail provided. Links to pics, current GoCollect and GPA FMV's, free CGC grader notes, links to the census reports, etc. Arguably, above average content. 

2. Shopper comes along and says he's "Interested, maybe"  in some unspecified books and whether the books are pressed or not 

3. Seller says they are all pressed, some better than others and asks which ones he's interested in.

4. Shopper replies indicating he's "thinking about" a bundle deal of Avengers 8 and Hulk 141

5. Seller pulls those books off the shelf. Knows for sure one is pressed, and determines one of them actually isn't.

6. Seller responds to Shopper telling him one's pressed, the other isn't and the Hulk book that isn't pressed is going to be removed from sale. 

7. Shopper disregards this and now suddenly has gone from thinking about a sweet Avengers 8 and Hulk 141 bundle to wanting that 9.2 unpressed Hulk book, the one he's always wanted, but was just told was being pulled from sale in the prior message. He tells the Seller he wants that book. Not the Avengers 8, not the bundle. Just the Hulk. 

8. A minute after that, the Shopper puts a "take" in the thread too. He would explain later that he did this because the Seller hadn't updated the thread yet to indicate it was being pulled and he thought it was form of sales pressure tactic. 

9. The Seller returns to the forum 15 minutes later and responds to the Shopper's PM clarifying the book is indeed being pulled. 

10. The Seller updates the ad to indicate it's pulled and the Shopper posts a "well that's that" message with a frown. 

11. The Seller see this and offers the Shopper a great deal. First crack at the book with an additional 10% off with the value pegged at present FMV @ grade, even if it goes up in value.

12. The Shopper enters a general discussion thread to publicly grumble about the take he has just been denied.

13. That's apparently all it takes for the brotherhood members to engage in the sales thread, letting the seller know how things work 'round here, and how he oughta just respect the take or lose reputation/privileges.

14. The Seller notices one of the sales thread comments references another thread, reads the content and time stamps there and recognizes immediately that the Shopper not only failed to accurately describe the manner in which events took place, he also provides embellished reasoning in an apparent effort to make himself look like a victim. 

15. The Seller tries in vain in both threads to represent the facts as they actually were. To show that the Shopper wasn't a victim and was aware of the book being removed from sale before trying to take it. The entire situation begins to resemble a shakedown by proxy, en masse. No one gives a . No one wants to read his walls of text. Several point to the Seller's rules that say "no matter what" as if that's some sort of waiver that dismisses a shopper being purposefully manipulative.

16. The Seller refuses to back down or cave in, which only earns him the permanent ire of more and more board-members by refusing to "do the right thing." or posting 1000 word diatribe position papers providing context that go completely unread anyway. Facts don't matter and perception is everything. This... is 2020.

17. Frustrated with the community in general, The Seller closes the thread, never to sell here again, but quite thankful to those who did purchase the $15,000 or so in books. Thanks, everyone, you know where to find me.   

Still with me? Probably not. I apologize to those of you who never made it past Stan Lee thought-bubble reading level. I'm sure you hate walls of text. I don't especially like writing them either, but oh well. If only one person comes to understand and appreciate my perspective, it's worth it.

Epilogue:

They say a guilty conscious always confesses, whether they are conscious of their crimes or not. You have that confession in the general discussion board when Miraclemet describes how and why he put his take down when he did. He's been burnt before, you see, lost out on other sales from buyers who changed their minds when, as he describes it, they are presented with his low offers for bundles of books, for less than Miraclemet perceives the Seller had hoped for. That's why he put the take down after I told him it wasn't for sale... He did so specifically to pre-empt the possibility from what he described above from happening to him again, despite not actually having any offer made on a book(s) he said he was interested in, maybe. 

That's his excuse folks, a deliberate step to force me into selling that particular book to him when he learned I was going to take it down. All this could have ended as quickly and as painlessly as it started when I reiterated my desire to pull it assuring him that it wasn't some sort pressure tactic. That would be quite a ridiculously stupid pressure tactic and is really a nonsensical explanation. He did not remove or rescind his take. He didn't even make any offer, despite that take. No, instead, he went grumbling about what happened to the brotherhood. I suspect he's been around more than long enough to know what happens when you bump the brotherhood's hive. I'll bet if I went back through that thread, I'd find more instances of the brethren being called into service in such a manner, right?

Well, I'm not about to allow anyone to extort property from me, for any reason. Ostracize me all you'd like, I don't care.  I guess you can all buy safely in the knowledge that the next time someone lets you know they're going to pull a book from sale, something you might be thinking you're interested in, maybe, you can always force that seller to sell it to you, for at least asking price, by dropping your take down even after they've told you it's being pulled. Hey, if they don't like it, you can call in the cavalry with a simple grumble.

The saddest part in all this is the number of comments I've read along the lines of how my reputation has been destroyed here, "all over a matter of, at most, a possible few hundred bucks." or some variant.

Lol, god almighty, so what? It's a matter of PRINCIPLE. This world wouldn't be such a place if more people stood up for themselves and the truth. 

All of you sticklers for the rules apparently have such blind allegiance to them that you can't perceive when people may actually be GAMING them to their benefit, walking away unscathed if the resultant tornado of peer pressure doens't work out in their favor.  

If at this point, you STILL don't get it, then I'm absolutely, positively in the wrong place and amongst the wrong people. 

To be fair, I completely agree with (1). I liked the fact you included the FMV's from both GoCollect and GPA. 

 

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9 hours ago, skypinkblu said:

It's a lot of money to most people, obviously it was a big decision for thewritestuff, too.

But of course, that didn't seem to matter to Rick Starr.

@thewritestuff

The rules were modified a while ago, we have separate threads for each probation nomination. You also need to send Rick Starr a separate PM advising him that you plan to nominate him to the probation thread and give him 3 days to reconsider his actions.

Hopefully he will and this need go no further. 

Thank you for your guidance, skypinkblu. I have posted a separate thread as you suggested.

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On 10/26/2020 at 4:29 AM, agamoto said:

Columbo Detective GIF - Columbo Detective Confused GIFs

Oh, just one more thing...

Lol, probation huh? You guys are a hoot! Let me restate this as clearly and as succinctly as I can.

1. Seller puts some 30 or so books up for sale worth $15K or so. Plenty of rich detail provided. Links to pics, current GoCollect and GPA FMV's, free CGC grader notes, links to the census reports, etc. Arguably, above average content. 

2. Shopper comes along and says he's "Interested, maybe"  in some unspecified books and whether the books are pressed or not 

3. Seller says they are all pressed, some better than others and asks which ones he's interested in.

4. Shopper replies indicating he's "thinking about" a bundle deal of Avengers 8 and Hulk 141

5. Seller pulls those books off the shelf. Knows for sure one is pressed, and determines one of them actually isn't.

6. Seller responds to Shopper telling him one's pressed, the other isn't and the Hulk book that isn't pressed is going to be removed from sale. 

7. Shopper disregards this and now suddenly has gone from thinking about a sweet Avengers 8 and Hulk 141 bundle to wanting that 9.2 unpressed Hulk book, the one he's always wanted, but was just told was being pulled from sale in the prior message. He tells the Seller he wants that book. Not the Avengers 8, not the bundle. Just the Hulk. 

8. A minute after that, the Shopper puts a "take" in the thread too. He would explain later that he did this because the Seller hadn't updated the thread yet to indicate it was being pulled and he thought it was form of sales pressure tactic. 

9. The Seller returns to the forum 15 minutes later and responds to the Shopper's PM clarifying the book is indeed being pulled. 

10. The Seller updates the ad to indicate it's pulled and the Shopper posts a "well that's that" message with a frown. 

11. The Seller see this and offers the Shopper a great deal. First crack at the book with an additional 10% off with the value pegged at present FMV @ grade, even if it goes up in value.

12. The Shopper enters a general discussion thread to publicly grumble about the take he has just been denied.

13. That's apparently all it takes for the brotherhood members to engage in the sales thread, letting the seller know how things work 'round here, and how he oughta just respect the take or lose reputation/privileges.

14. The Seller notices one of the sales thread comments references another thread, reads the content and time stamps there and recognizes immediately that the Shopper not only failed to accurately describe the manner in which events took place, he also provides embellished reasoning in an apparent effort to make himself look like a victim. 

15. The Seller tries in vain in both threads to represent the facts as they actually were. To show that the Shopper wasn't a victim and was aware of the book being removed from sale before trying to take it. The entire situation begins to resemble a shakedown by proxy, en masse. No one gives a . No one wants to read his walls of text. Several point to the Seller's rules that say "no matter what" as if that's some sort of waiver that dismisses a shopper being purposefully manipulative.

16. The Seller refuses to back down or cave in, which only earns him the permanent ire of more and more board-members by refusing to "do the right thing." or posting 1000 word diatribe position papers providing context that go completely unread anyway. Facts don't matter and perception is everything. This... is 2020.

17. Frustrated with the community in general, The Seller closes the thread, never to sell here again, but quite thankful to those who did purchase the $15,000 or so in books. Thanks, everyone, you know where to find me.   

Still with me? Probably not. I apologize to those of you who never made it past Stan Lee thought-bubble reading level. I'm sure you hate walls of text. I don't especially like writing them either, but oh well. If only one person comes to understand and appreciate my perspective, it's worth it.

Epilogue:

They say a guilty conscious always confesses, whether they are conscious of their crimes or not. You have that confession in the general discussion board when Miraclemet describes how and why he put his take down when he did. He's been burnt before, you see, lost out on other sales from buyers who changed their minds when, as he describes it, they are presented with his low offers for bundles of books, for less than Miraclemet perceives the Seller had hoped for. That's why he put the take down after I told him it wasn't for sale... He did so specifically to pre-empt the possibility from what he described above from happening to him again, despite not actually having any offer made on a book(s) he said he was interested in, maybe. 

That's his excuse folks, a deliberate step to force me into selling that particular book to him when he learned I was going to take it down. All this could have ended as quickly and as painlessly as it started when I reiterated my desire to pull it assuring him that it wasn't some sort pressure tactic. That would be quite a ridiculously stupid pressure tactic and is really a nonsensical explanation. He did not remove or rescind his take. He didn't even make any offer, despite that take. No, instead, he went grumbling about what happened to the brotherhood. I suspect he's been around more than long enough to know what happens when you bump the brotherhood's hive. I'll bet if I went back through that thread, I'd find more instances of the brethren being called into service in such a manner, right?

Well, I'm not about to allow anyone to extort property from me, for any reason. Ostracize me all you'd like, I don't care.  I guess you can all buy safely in the knowledge that the next time someone lets you know they're going to pull a book from sale, something you might be thinking you're interested in, maybe, you can always force that seller to sell it to you, for at least asking price, by dropping your take down even after they've told you it's being pulled. Hey, if they don't like it, you can call in the cavalry with a simple grumble.

The saddest part in all this is the number of comments I've read along the lines of how my reputation has been destroyed here, "all over a matter of, at most, a possible few hundred bucks." or some variant.

Lol, god almighty, so what? It's a matter of PRINCIPLE. This world wouldn't be such a place if more people stood up for themselves and the truth. 

All of you sticklers for the rules apparently have such blind allegiance to them that you can't perceive when people may actually be GAMING them to their benefit, walking away unscathed if the resultant tornado of peer pressure doens't work out in their favor.  

If at this point, you STILL don't get it, then I'm absolutely, positively in the wrong place and amongst the wrong people. 

If you read this on an iPhone this is like the text version of the infamous "longcat.gif"

Speaking of longcat... @jsilverjanet

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I have few questions to the more experienced members here.

1) Sellers here generally use the rule that says 'No PL/HOS members'. How do you enforce this? Before completing every transaction do you go and search the buyer in the two lists?

2) Some sellers have an additional rule that they will not sell to anyone on their personal lists (beyond PL/HOS). How do you generally implement this? Let's say a person on your personal black list  posts a "take" on your sales thread. Is that "take" not binding? Would you publicly post this information on your thread to nullify the "take"?

3) As a buyer, let's say I want to implement the personal rule 'No PL/HOS sellers'. Since being on a PL doesn't prevent someone from selling here, does the onus of verification rely on the buyer? If I post a "take" on a sales thread of a member on PL, and later want to rescind the "take" because of the discovery that they're on PL, would it be okay?

 

 

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1 hour ago, allthingskryptonite said:

I have few questions to the more experienced members here.

1) Sellers here generally use the rule that says 'No PL/HOS members'. How do you enforce this? Before completing every transaction do you go and search the buyer in the two lists?

2) Some sellers have an additional rule that they will not sell to anyone on their personal lists (beyond PL/HOS). How do you generally implement this? Let's say a person on your personal black list  posts a "take" on your sales thread. Is that "take" not binding? Would you publicly post this information on your thread to nullify the "take"?

3) As a buyer, let's say I want to implement the personal rule 'No PL/HOS sellers'. Since being on a PL doesn't prevent someone from selling here, does the onus of verification rely on the buyer? If I post a "take" on a sales thread of a member on PL, and later want to rescind the "take" because of the discovery that they're on PL, would it be okay?

 

 

I always add hos/PL and no problem children.
 

I’ve got one person on ignore here and they know who they are.  Now I say this because they know they are on ignore.   If they were to be that obnoxious as to take it in a sales thread, I would publicly cite the no problem children listing.  
 

However there are boardies that ignore someone else without telling the person.  In that case if by chance the problem child took something in a thread, I would politely send a pm just saying that I would prefer not to conduct business with them.  

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I have a rule where I reserve the right to not sell to people with whom I choose to not do business. There are two people on these boards I will never do business with again based on my personal experience with them. If either of them ever took a book I posted for sale I would send a PM letting them know that their take is ineligible, and then post in the thread that book is still available. 

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I think the consensus is, you have a responsibility to check the HOS and PL list. Then just PM them and tell them you won't sell because of this. This is a step I generally don't take,  but probably should. 

I have seen some veteran board members call out PL members who take a book in the thread, so that's helpful. 

As for the personal list,  it's just that. People you just don't want to do business with for personal reasons. 

I personally don't have anyone on my personal list. 

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Regarding people on lists/ignore taking books: I have seen people post a take it in thread and then a post from the seller saying book is still available, they may have even said something like "I cannot see any take it post on the AF15 AND book is still available"

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On 11/7/2020 at 2:54 AM, allthingskryptonite said:

I have few questions to the more experienced members here.

1) Sellers here generally use the rule that says 'No PL/HOS members'. How do you enforce this? Before completing every transaction do you go and search the buyer in the two lists?

2) Some sellers have an additional rule that they will not sell to anyone on their personal lists (beyond PL/HOS). How do you generally implement this? Let's say a person on your personal black list  posts a "take" on your sales thread. Is that "take" not binding? Would you publicly post this information on your thread to nullify the "take"?

3) As a buyer, let's say I want to implement the personal rule 'No PL/HOS sellers'. Since being on a PL doesn't prevent someone from selling here, does the onus of verification rely on the buyer? If I post a "take" on a sales thread of a member on PL, and later want to rescind the "take" because of the discovery that they're on PL, would it be okay?

 

 

1. I usually check "take it"s vs the PL/HOS. Maybe after a few takes in my sales thread, or at the end of the day. If someone on the PL posted a take, I would PM them and say that due to PL status I wont be honoring the "take" and ask them to edit their post to remove the take. I would also post that "Book X is still available"  (in case they arent going to go back and edit their take post). 

2. If I see someone on my personal no sale list (and there are like 3 people on my list) post a take, I'd PM them that per my rules I reserve the right to not do business with some people, and they are one of those people. I'd then do the the same steps as in #1 as far as clarification and editing of posts. 

3. If Im the buyer and post a take in a sales thread, I'm obligated to buy. I'm also responsible for knowing who Im engaging in business with. I dont always check before buying, but if I found myself having posted a "take it" on a PL sales thread, Id PM the guy and say something about how Im not comfortable completing a transaction with someone who has open issues on the PL, but once they're resolved Im happy to buy the book in question. If he holds me to the transaction then I just be careful using paypal, but this hasnt happened yet, cause any time a PL person posts a sales thread (which I can only remember happening once) the boardies swarmed on him like flies on honey and ate him alive before he could do more than post a couple books and then sulk away in shame. 

 

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and wow, I had moved on from the IH141 fiasco so I didnt read agamoto's final few posts, but Im pretty sure homophobic slurs dont fly here... 

Im not gonna quote his whole 18 point rant, but when you end like this you invalidate everything you said...

homophobia.thumb.JPG.86f2254187693cf6df3099b132f4b8d3.JPG

 

 

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37 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

and wow, I had moved on from the IH141 fiasco so I didnt read agamoto's final few posts, but Im pretty sure homophobic slurs dont fly here... 

Im not gonna quote his whole 18 point rant, but when you end like this you invalidate everything you said...

homophobia.thumb.JPG.86f2254187693cf6df3099b132f4b8d3.JPG

 

 

How cute, he thinks he has integrity lol

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1 hour ago, miraclemet said:

and wow, I had moved on from the IH141 fiasco so I didnt read agamoto's final few posts, but Im pretty sure homophobic slurs dont fly here... 

Im not gonna quote his whole 18 point rant, but when you end like this you invalidate everything you said...

homophobia.thumb.JPG.86f2254187693cf6df3099b132f4b8d3.JPG

 

 

:facepalm:  I just went and read the end of the thread you linked to :facepalm:

WOW!

:tonofbricks:

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As you can see from the thread posted below, I am interested in upgrading my CGC 0.5 copy of AF #15.

After several posts, I decided to follow the sound advice of the posters and first find a copy of AF #15. After I have found what I want, I will sell my AF 15 0.5 and my IH #181 CGC 8.5 to help defray the costs.

On Tuesday of this week, I found a board member who had a post that showed that he owned two copies of AF #15 in the Amazing Fantasy #15 Club thread.

My first message to this board member, which occurred Tuesday at 12:20 PM, stated, "I noticed that your post from (date removed) included an AF #15 CGC (grade removed). I know I'm going out on a limb here, but do you have any interest in selling it? If so, what would be your asking price?

The board member's response, which occurred on Tuesday, 3:02 PM, stated, "Hmmmmmm, you know I might do something like that. It is possible I suppose. Haven't really given it much thought until just right now with your message. "

My next message, which occurred on Tuesday, at 6:20 PM, stated that I would be willing to trade some comics that I currently have, such as AF #15, IH #181, ST #101 CGC 6.0, and JiM #85 CGC 4.5, if the board member was interested in any of those books.

The board member's response, which occurred on Wednesday, 10:25 AM, stated, "I have all of these books already, in higher grades   :(   Actually the only thing I would consider is a straight purchase unfortunately .........   and it would be more in the area of 15K, as I wasn't actually "in the market" to sell it to be honest.  My personal opinion is that the 2020 prices were a bit "soft" for this book in this grade, and that near-future sales should get to my estimated value of 15K very soon."

My next message, which occurred on Wednesday, 10:25 AM, stated, "If I was to offer you $15,000, would that be acceptable to you? It would take me a couple of days to get the money transferred. I am having surgery tomorrow, so I might not have the money until Friday or Saturday." I followed up this message with current GoCollect and GPAnalysis prices for this book, in which I stated, "I am willing to pay extra because I think your book presents well for the grade."

The board member's response, which occurred on Wednesday, 11:22 AM, stated, "Also, it's important to look at dates and trends "around" the grade you are looking at ...... if you look at GPA for recent 2.0 and 3.0 sales , it seems clear to me that the Aug 2020 $13,600 is already old news and due for a bump .... again, just my analysis/opinion .........."

My next message, which occurred on Wednesday, 11:25 AM, stated, "I understand completely. So, did you find my offer of $15,000 acceptable? If not, what would you accept?"

The board member's response, which occurred on Wednesday, 11:29 AM, stated, "I'll accept 15K USD" This is verbatim.

This was followed my a couple of messages to determine our locations, just in case we could do a face to face deal. We could not, because I live in Iowa and the board member lives in Canada.

The next response from the board member, which occurred on Wednesday, 11:52 AM, stated, "When I've done the reverse (bought from a boardie in the US ), I sent a US money order and the seller waited until it cleared their bank, then the seller sent me the book. I've done a few HUGE deals with (name removed) and (name removed), to name a couple big players. I suppose that would be the way to go ."

My reply, which occurred on Wednesday, 12:10 PM, stated, "Well, I probably won't be able to get to the bank until Monday then. According to my doctor, I won't be feeling that well on Friday. And I have to make an appointment with my bank to enter the lobby. If you would like, I could send you $1,000 using PayPal Friends & Family as a down payment, just so you know I am serious."

My next message, which occurred on Wednesday, 12:15 PM, asked, "Since you live in Canada, are there going to be a lot of export fees to pay when you send the book to me?"

The board member's response, which occurred on Wednesday, 12:34 PM, stated, "Between you and me, I will not mark " $20,000 Cdn dollars" as a value on the paperwork. Those above guys always did me a solid in that way, so I will do the same. I'll probably mark it as like $100." Notice that he did not mention anything about my offer of a down payment.

I then asked him to send me a scan of the back cover. The board member sent me two scans of the front cover and two scans of the back cover on Wednesday, 09:22 PM.

I did not see these scans until early Thursday morning. I did not have time to reply to his message, as I had to be at the hospital at 6:00 AM for my surgery. I did not bring my laptop with me to the hospital, as I was supposed to return home that evening, but I couldn't due to complications from my surgery. I had my cell phone with me, but it is a flip-phone, and I can't use it to access the Internet. I tried accessing the Internet on my Kindle, but I don't do well with typing unless it's with a real keyboard.

On Friday, at 10:00 AM, the board member sent a message which stated, "Hey, With all respect, I'm going to have to back out. You gave me too much time to think about it and I don't actually want to sell at this time."

My last reply, which occurred at 5:00 PM on Friday when I returned home, stated, "If I was to offer you $16,500, would that be enough to change your mind? That is a 10% increase over our agreed upon price." I also explained that I had not been dragging my feet. I had a legitimate reason as to why I could not contact him on Thursday, and I had informed him of this immediately after he agreed to the sale. I also stated, "Please tell me if there is anything I can do to make this sale a reality. I don't feel that it is right for you to back out of this deal, considering that I was upfront with you about my payment situation. "

This board member logged on to the CGC website today, so I know he would have seen my message, unless he just chose to ignore it.

I understand that I will not be able to force him to sell the book to me. However, reneging on a deal is not acceptable. I explained my situation up front, and he didn't say anything about this one way or the other. I offered a down payment, and he didn't express an opinion.

Look, I don't want to be labelled as a trouble-maker, but I also don't think someone should break a deal without repercussions. So, how do you think I should proceed?

Thanks for your time.

 

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What's your desired outcome with this? Coercing the would-be seller into selling you the book? I'm guessing your post killed that possibility. Put him on the probation list? You approached him and made him an offer out of the blue to which he expressed reluctance.

I understand that a deal is a deal but this is more nuanced than if the seller offered the book in a sales thread. He was just minding his own business and now he'll probably have to deal with a potential PL nomination. 

You want my advice? Let it go. It's not like AF 15s are hard to find. 

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I'm sorry the deal fell through. I know you've been looking for this book for awhile and i can appreciate the frustration of committing to the purchase and moving money around. It's allot of $$ and not an easy decision. 

I personally don't think it's PL worthy. He didn't offer the book for sale and I can appreciate having a change of heart on a book you weren't looking to sell.  

I would move on amicably if possible.  That said, I think with your price range and trade bait, you'll find the right deal.  There are a few dealers on these boards that can probably help you out quickly and easily. 

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4 hours ago, Ryan. said:

What's your desired outcome with this? Coercing the would-be seller into selling you the book? I'm guessing your post killed that possibility. Put him on the probation list? You approached him and made him an offer out of the blue to which he expressed reluctance.

I understand that a deal is a deal but this is more nuanced than if the seller offered the book in a sales thread. He was just minding his own business and now he'll probably have to deal with a potential PL nomination. 

You want my advice? Let it go. It's not like AF 15s are hard to find. 

@Ryan.

No, I fully understand that I cannot force this user to sell me this book. But he did not express reluctance until after two days, one of which I was incommunicado through no fault of my own. Whatever happened to "My word is my bond."?

Thanks for your input!

Edited by Math Teacher
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