• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

X-Men2 Splash

Started by clemso,

271 posts in this topic

gambron

gambron

Posted
Posted

With all the heated trash-talk and mudslinging going around I figured i'd dive in!!!

 

On the matter of the value/desirability of this piece. All i'll say is that in any genre of art there are important artists that come along at different points. We typically define their importance through considering the originality and influence of their individual, stylistic approach. Then of course there are the fore-fathers, the pioneers, the Babe Ruths, the Cy Youngs if you will of a genre. Their importance, if for no other reason than they set the proverbial wheels in motion, is undeniable. Jack Kirby, pure and simple is at THE top of the list when it comes to American comic art. This of course is compounded by the fact that I think the genre itself has a good deal of upside in the context of being recognized as an important, viable 20th century pop culture art form. I mean just to give an example, a few weeks ago a fellow collector and myself were marveling at some of the prices (in excess of 200k) being fetched by some seemingly run-of-the-mill 1950's Elvgren (the Jack Kirby of "Pinup Art", a very recognized 20th century pop culture art form) pieces. Is it that much of a leap to think that 10-20 years from now we'll see regular sales at those levels in our hobby, especially with some of the silly prices being paid for some comics these days?

 

And the notion that there is no bid for early X-men or that the true nostalgia for X-men will ONLY be the Byrne, Cockrum run is a closed minded one. There is ALWAYS a bid for the original version of something as popular as the X-men. AND this particular piece is arguably the BEST image of the early crew in action. Not to mention that Cyclops, Jean Grey and Beast, all keys players in the glory Byrne-Cockrum years, are all depicted quite nicely.

 

Now as far as the seller making "another huge flip" well, all I can say is good for him. I've been "rolled" a few times in obtaining my personal grails and we've all seen it done by many in this hobby quite often. And i'll have no problem selling pieces in the years to come if "silly" money comes along. And furthermore, when considered in the context of flipping it to a VERY seasoned dealer/collector like Mike Burkey, the insinuation that Jon somehow did something wrong or under-handed is silly.

 

And as far as Mike's great grandchildren struggling to break even on this piece 100 years from now, I would bet that Mike, being a dealer who can turn trade material into cash over time, will get more than his asking price in value within a years time. I really don't think it'll take a BSD or some loaded newb to unload it.

 

Just my 2 Cents...

 

-Ken Rodgers

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
WYLDCHYLD

WYLDCHYLD

Posted
Posted

Actually Felix, no, I have NEVER offered it to another collector at $200K...so once again, you speak of deals you are not involved in, nor will ever be involved in...you're what we call an "old wash-woman" who gossips...

 

To call Burkey basically an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for aquiring one of the nicest image splashes of Jack Kirby art from one of the most important silver age titles in pop culture is just you showing ignorance toward silver-age art...

 

Burkey is one of the sharpest dealers in the hobby, has one of the most valuable inventories as well as a massive personal collection, and it didn't come by him being an insufficiently_thoughtful_person...and I'm sure he'll turn a profit, be it cash and/or a huge pile of trade where over time he could very well make a HUGE profit (as Burkey trades a lot, and I can think of quite a few hobbyists that may not have that type of cash, but realize that they could possibly offer him the right TRADE to his liking, as Mike is a serious personal collector as well...). So to say I found a "suck--er" to aquire key Kirby art? Let's see which art will stand the test of time better:

Historic Kirby art from a key silver-age book,

or the art you've bought: pages from Preacher and Y-the Last Man...

 

Buy what you like in this hobby, (as I do myself) to make your collection the way you like it, but to criticize others as you do so often only sours the hobby.

 

As for some of the bigger collectors and what they buy and sell, it's mostly behind closed doors...you're not invited to the party...I am.

I see many six-figure deals go down, and the reason is?

I keep my mouth shut about them...

You think that NOBODY owns all the key silver age art?

Do you think that those of us with large collections that show other collectors our own collections (as I often do at my Hollywood art gatherings at my home) show EVERYTHING we own, and brag about what we're buying behind closed doors?Some of us keep a few "secret pieces" that we only show a select few friends...

I'll say this Felix, more big-dollar deals go down behind closed doors than you know...

 

Not sure what your "-on-Mankuta agenda" is Felix, but you seem to harbor a good amount of sour grapes towards some of us like myself who have "larger collections" and sometimes fund them by selling some pieces to buy others...

 

I myself have owned LOTS of X-Men art over the 15 or so years I've been in the hobby...at least 50 panel pages of Byrne and Cockrum, 2 Cockrum X-Men covers, 3 Byrne X-Men covers, and many many more covers than you can shake a stick at all sold to fund other art I simply wanted more...I collect 1970s cover art mostly, and currently have about 200 vintage covers in my personal collection...it's what I like...I also have some complete books, some splashes, panel pages, a small handfull of comissions, as well as some silver age art here and there...and as most collectors do, when I get the urge to sell art from my personal collection that I've had for a few years such as the X-Men #2 splash (and yes, I've owned it for about 4 years), I do it, just as I've seen YOU yourself sell art pieces...no crime there, we've all done it...larger collectors and small...

 

Now when you say "quick flip", I don't get free sketches from an artist and sell them on ebay the next week...THAT is a quick flip...

 

If you have some sort of "personal" issue with me, simply let me know, and perhaps you'd like to discuss it in person at the SD Con in 2 weeks...you're quite a "keyboard warrior" to only talk about collectors online rather than to their face....

Link to comment
Share on other sites
WYLDCHYLD

WYLDCHYLD

Posted
Posted

It actually WAS in a museum (a few museums actually) for the good part of a year, as when I owned it, I loaned it to the Hammer museum as the "centerpiece" of their Kirby museum display when they toured it around the country...

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
There are four elvgrens in the current heritage illo auction estimated at 40k... 200k seems rich....

 

This one sold for $262,000 last year...and another went for $200,000

 

http://fineart.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7000&Lot_No=66097&src=pr#Photo

 

-K

 

 

 

Yeah I remember a couple sales that high, don`t get me wrong, but its not a regular occurence and I`m guessing they aren`t run of the mill ones. You could get a pretty nice one if you were patient and had 40 or 50k.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
moegreen1999-migration

moegreen1999-migration

Posted
Posted
It WAS in the MOMA too...

That was part of the Kirby art tour... :)

 

Ok, now I'm impressed

 

This is a museum piece for sure

 

Very few and far between deserve to be displayed in the MOMA

 

This X-Men 2 Splash is deserving

 

Congrats again Mikey

 

Killer piece !!!!!

 

Killer

 

I can see it being a 7 figure piece in due time. Mikes children's children need not be concerned being "stuck" with this alleged albatross

 

Its a GORGEOUS example of Kirby at his finest

 

And historic to boot

Link to comment
Share on other sites
NelsonAI

NelsonAI

Posted
Posted

:o

 

Great splash. While it may not be as significant as page 1 issue 1, artistically, I think this issue 2 splash is better.

 

I would spring for the extra bucks to have the art professionally cleaned though. Something this nice deserves to be restored.

 

They don't call Kirby "the King" for nothing.

(worship)

 

Cheers!

N

 

SDCC is almost here. I can't wait to see this in person. :banana:

I don't have to own the art to appreciate it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
delekkerste

delekkerste

Posted
Posted
Yeah I remember a couple sales that high, don`t get me wrong, but its not a regular occurence and I`m guessing they aren`t run of the mill ones. You could get a pretty nice one if you were patient and had 40 or 50k.

 

Actually, one of the Elvgrens that topped $200K was very average at best (I would argue below average, actually) and the one that sold for $262.9K at the top of the bubble market of 2008 was a good, but not spectacular, piece that had sold for all of $50.2K only 18 months prior. I suspect both pieces would fetch only a third to a half of their 2008 prices in the current market and will take a long time to reach those bubble valuations again.

 

For the record, Heritage has long put $30-$40K estimates on their Elvgren auctions knowing they will sell for much higher (the old "set-the-bar low" trick to make the results look that much better). Prices crashed and burned in the last auction, however, with only 1 lot exceeding $40K - it was very shocking. Prices will certainly rebound in the current auction with Heritage going all-out to promote the Martignette estate sale, but, with so many more Elvgrens coming down the pike from the estate and from other collections, it's difficult to see a rebound now as being the start of a new up-trend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Big Daddy

Big Daddy

Posted
Posted

That page is awesome. And I agree there will always be a market for Kirby art even though the majority of us smaller collectors will never own a splash page like that, there's still a market for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
groovyedwin

groovyedwin

Posted
Posted

"old-wash women" is a good one. I am use to calling them "drama queens".

 

general public: There are several different groups of collectors that do not advertise some or all of what they have or what changes hands and the prices/trades involved. Collectors and artists do not circulate this information openly. Those who talk get cut off quickly and for good.

 

It also pays to show some respect towards other people. You never know who can tracked down your grail. When showing no respect for others it is amazing what art remains stashed away and never seems to be found by those searching for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
delekkerste

delekkerste

Posted
Posted

As for the X-Men 2 splash, yes, it's a nice early SA splash and historic, but the same criticisms of the #1 splash still apply - the layout/content is impressive, but the art isn't technically/aesthetically all that great (when I think of Kirby at his best, I don't think of his early X-Men work, and neither does anybody else) and it's the version of the team that many don't really have an affinity for. How soon people forget how unloved even the #1 art was not that long ago when it could have been had for a fraction of today's prices.

 

That said, I can see why some would love it (or hate it) or feel that it is under or overpriced. But, that's not really the point here, is it. I'm really turned off by the exclusionary attitude and rhetoric in this thread, and I know a lot of longtime collectors, including some who play in the deep end of the pool, who really hate this aspect of the hobby as well. I don't know if Felix has all his ducks straight about the #2 splash or not, but I feel that the response was far more egregious than anything he may have misspoke about. I mean, it doesn't make me feel proud to be part of a hobby where one can be mocked and basically be told that what they collect sucks (relatively speaking) and that they will never play in the big boys' sandbox or be privy to the secrets that come out when the BSDs don their hooded robes, light their candles and engage in a ceremonial circle jerk to 6-figure SA and BA artwork. :eek:

 

As Billy Joel once sang (sort of):

 

You oughta know by now

Who needs a Kirby splash inked by Reinman

Is that all you get for your buck-fifty?

It seems such a waste of time

If that's what being a BSD is all about

Mankuta, if that's moving up, then I'm moving out.

 

- Gene

Link to comment
Share on other sites
WYLDCHYLD

WYLDCHYLD

Posted
Posted

Gene, when Felix basically talks smack about myself and Burkey (not to mention other collectors), I'm certainly going to reply to it in kind...and call him out in person if it's personal.

 

 

And I don't try to "isolate" ANYONE from the sandbox...it's just that folks like Felix with their sour-puss bad attitudes and gossip without knowing what they're talking about aren't always welcome to play with the other kids...

 

*(On a side-note, congrats on the Vampi #1 story...just beautiful...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bronty

Bronty

Posted
Posted
Yeah I remember a couple sales that high, don`t get me wrong, but its not a regular occurence and I`m guessing they aren`t run of the mill ones. You could get a pretty nice one if you were patient and had 40 or 50k.

 

Actually, one of the Elvgrens that topped $200K was very average at best (I would argue below average, actually) and the one that sold for $262.9K at the top of the bubble market of 2008 was a good, but not spectacular, piece that had sold for all of $50.2K only 18 months prior. I suspect both pieces would fetch only a third to a half of their 2008 prices in the current market and will take a long time to reach those bubble valuations again.

 

For the record, Heritage has long put $30-$40K estimates on their Elvgren auctions knowing they will sell for much higher (the old "set-the-bar low" trick to make the results look that much better). Prices crashed and burned in the last auction, however, with only 1 lot exceeding $40K - it was very shocking. Prices will certainly rebound in the current auction with Heritage going all-out to promote the Martignette estate sale, but, with so many more Elvgrens coming down the pike from the estate and from other collections, it's difficult to see a rebound now as being the start of a new up-trend.

 

interesting, thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nexus

Nexus

Posted
Posted
Actually Felix, no, I have NEVER offered it to another collector at $200K...so once again, you speak of deals you are not involved in, nor will ever be involved in...you're what we call an "old wash-woman" who gossips...

 

Just got back from BRUNO. Funny movie, but I could have saved myself a ticket and gotten a bigger laugh right here. meh

 

Like I said, if you've never offered it to anyone for $200K and if you aren't using Mike Burkey to sell this splash, then someone's lying.

 

To call Burkey basically an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for aquiring one of the nicest image splashes of Jack Kirby art from one of the most important silver age titles in pop culture is just you showing ignorance toward silver-age art...

 

I never called Mike an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. I've got nothing but respect for Mike. What I am saying is that I don't believe Mike is the owner of this splash. I believe someone is consigning it with him. Despite the protestations.

 

And I've got nothing against this piece, Kirby, and/or Silver Age art. I just don't think this piece is worth $150K. Why? Because it's been shopped around behind the scenes for $100K and never sold. That would be a pretty good indicator to me.

 

Burkey is one of the sharpest dealers in the hobby, has one of the most valuable inventories as well as a massive personal collection, and it didn't come by him being an insufficiently_thoughtful_person...and I'm sure he'll turn a profit, be it cash and/or a huge pile of trade where over time he could very well make a HUGE profit (as Burkey trades a lot, and I can think of quite a few hobbyists that may not have that type of cash, but realize that they could possibly offer him the right TRADE to his liking, as Mike is a serious personal collector as well...). So to say I found a "suck--er" to aquire key Kirby art? Let's see which art will stand the test of time better:

Historic Kirby art from a key silver-age book,

or the art you've bought: pages from Preacher and Y-the Last Man...

 

Heheh...well, the difference between you and me is that I buy what I like. If it's all junk and/or ends up being worthless, no big deal because I've gotten enjoyment from owning it. I don't need to post massive "wantlists" looking for material to flip...this is just a hobby for me.

 

I also wouldn't take a newbie under my wing, "counsel" him on collecting, tell him a Bronze Age cover that is being sold by a major dealer would be "perfect" for his new collection...while at the same time, not telling that newbie that I was the consignor of said cover.

 

Would you?

 

Buy what you like in this hobby, (as I do myself) to make your collection the way you like it, but to criticize others as you do so often only sours the hobby.

 

I don't believe I criticize others so often. And certainly not their collections. But I do call BS when I see it.

 

As for some of the bigger collectors and what they buy and sell, it's mostly behind closed doors...you're not invited to the party...I am.

 

Well, I already did say I wasn't a "player in the big kids sandbox". Again, this is just a hobby for me. My collection isn't my sole purpose in life and doesn't define my existence.

 

I see many six-figure deals go down, and the reason is?

I keep my mouth shut about them...

You think that NOBODY owns all the key silver age art?

Do you think that those of us with large collections that show other collectors our own collections (as I often do at my Hollywood art gatherings at my home) show EVERYTHING we own, and brag about what we're buying behind closed doors?Some of us keep a few "secret pieces" that we only show a select few friends...

I'll say this Felix, more big-dollar deals go down behind closed doors than you know...

 

Not sure what your "-on-Mankuta agenda" is Felix, but you seem to harbor a good amount of sour grapes towards some of us like myself who have "larger collections" and sometimes fund them by selling some pieces to buy others...

 

I've got nothing against big collectors...I count some of the biggest collectors in this hobby as friends. How do you think I found out you were shopping this piece for $100K and then $200K? lol

 

Or that you try to pump Bronze Age George Perez covers to $90K? :screwy:

 

It's true, however, that I don't particularly care for the dealers who pretend to be collectors. Those who hide their dealing by selling through others (such as Profiles in History) in order to preserve their phony amateur status. Those who would present themselves as fellow collectors to out-of-touch-with-the-market old-timers in order to fleece them for more art to flip.

 

Those types I have no use for.

 

I myself have owned LOTS of X-Men art over the 15 or so years I've been in the hobby...at least 50 panel pages of Byrne and Cockrum, 2 Cockrum X-Men covers, 3 Byrne X-Men covers, and many many more covers than you can shake a stick at all sold to fund other art I simply wanted more...I collect 1970s cover art mostly, and currently have about 200 vintage covers in my personal collection...it's what I like...I also have some complete books, some splashes, panel pages, a small handfull of comissions, as well as some silver age art here and there...and as most collectors do, when I get the urge to sell art from my personal collection that I've had for a few years such as the X-Men #2 splash (and yes, I've owned it for about 4 years), I do it, just as I've seen YOU yourself sell art pieces...no crime there, we've all done it...larger collectors and small...

 

That sounds so impressive! And you're clearly the self-appointed ambassador of the hobby. So why haven't you ever bothered to post anything on CAF?

 

Could it be because you want to keep it all "fresh to market"? Is it a collection or inventory?

 

Now when you say "quick flip", I don't get free sketches from an artist and sell them on ebay the next week...THAT is a quick flip...

 

I didn't say "quick flip". I said "monster flip". Such as if someone got the CRISIS covers from Kevin Eastman by claiming them to be "grails"...and then flipping them. Or pieces direct from George Perez under the same ruse...and then flipping them. That sort of thing.

 

If you have some sort of "personal" issue with me, simply let me know, and perhaps you'd like to discuss it in person at the SD Con in 2 weeks...you're quite a "keyboard warrior" to only talk about collectors online rather than to their face....

 

I don't have any "personal" issue with you, Jon. I just know you're more than the Pauly Shore-level comedy stylings on Comicart-L.

 

As for "keyboard warrior"...well, I don't say anything about anyone that I wouldn't say to their face. So if you need to hear it from me directly, I'll be glad to accomodate at SD.

 

Seeya in two weeks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Go to topic listing