Thoughts on CGC GRADING (((POLL)))

[Rickdogg]

I've always wondered why CGC does this...

 

Lets just say that CGC assigns a Silver age book a 9.0 grade when a bronze book with the same exact flaws may receive a 8.0-8.5, and a modern with the same flaws would most likely receive a 7.5-8.0. Changing grading criteria based on the books age has always boggled me. What are your opinions on this matter? Should CGC have started by utilizing a set grading standard across all Ages (Platinum to modern) or is the current criteria logical?

 

Maybe a new grading company may make this "grading change" to bring more credible grades to their books??? Or they might even break up NM into NM Gold, NM Silver, NM Modern???

 

[Rickdogg]

 

 

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

If you were looking for a debate with older colllectors, then I think you've started on the right track Ok, I'm gonna hang out on a limb and say NO, I am well aware of the fact that up until sometime in the 60's comics were not considered "collectable", and that is what makes high grade Golden Age books so extremly RARE and desirable. IMO, the "flaws" that should be "more acceptable" in Platinum-Silver Age books are: Page Supplenes, and Date Stamps.

[Rickdogg]

What im thinking is that if CGC was "honest" about the grade for each and individual book across all ages, we would have a better grasp of what makes each book from each age rare or hard to find in HG. For example, a Silver CGC 9.6 would be like a Modern 10.0. The cgc census is growing every time they update and it will and has given each age a set standard of rarity. Collectors could see for themselves on what is the cream of the crop from each age.... (just examples)

 

Gold- 9.2 (equivalent to modern 10.0 in a sense)

Silver-9.6-9.8

Modern 10.0

 

Does that make any sense? I don't see the point in bumping up grades for each age. What's done is done and I sure as hell wouldn't want to re-submit all of my books, but I was just throwing out a thought.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

To me this poll/question is really a tough call, and to be honest with you, I voted YES, but after a little more thought, I would vote NO if I had a second chance. To expect a 60 year old book to exibit the same beauty as a new book might be asking too much IMHO. Why do I say this? I would say that this debate, starts at the printing press. Were comics printed with the same type of printers and with the same quality as today's books? Another factor is the date stamp, at the Golden Age of comic books, date stamps were a common method for stores that carried comic books to keep track of stock. Anyway, IMO there are some areas of grey in this issue.

[Joanna]

Grading for age isn't nearly as bothersome to me as grading Marvels higher than DC. At least with age there are arguments to be made for certain leniencies (i.e. date stamps, etc.) but what is point in grading one company's comics harsher than another's?

 

-- Joanna

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Actually I think it has more to do with the age of both Marvel and DC, and I would respecfully disagree, because Golden Age books do get more of a "break" when it comes to grading, and Marvel (NOT to be confused with Timely) does NOT have any Golden Age books. DC books were being published long before Marvel books, so I don't see exactly where your coming from with that statement.

[Rickdogg]

I don't have DC's ..errr nevermind I do have the first DK returns series, but I do agree with you on that point if this is true. I don't have DC books to compare marvels to, so I can't make that call

 

Doesn't CGC include date stamps with the grade issued? I just think that every flaw...creases, spine stress, foxing, date stamps, etc etc should downgrade each and every book across all ages equally. I don't see how it would effect the market (if CGC started this way). If this was the case, Gold books wouldn't be expected to hit the 9.0 or better mark, and the same would go for silver books if they didn't hit that elusive 9.6-9.8 mark. I just think CGC did this since humans tend to frown (example--> ) on things that are deemed bad or low...in this case Low grade comic books hhehehehehee.

[Rickdogg]

MOS,

 

Look above hehehe

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

So how many points down do you think a date stamp should bring a 50-60 year old Golden Age book? How many points down should a Golden Age book with cream pages be lowered?

[Rickdogg]

i'm not a grading expert so I wouldn't know We also don't know exactly how much CGC deducts for certain flaws..until they release their grading standards I can't give you an answer

[COI]

"To expect a 60 year old book to exibit the same beauty as a new book might be asking too much IMHO. "

 

I see what your saying but this is exactly why older books guide for a lot more. A NM should be a NM whether the book is 3 or 30 years old. Anything else and your defeating the purposes of grading in the first place.

 

By that logic, you'd have to have different grading acording to the different era, like goldNM, silverNM etc... which would be ridiculous. The fact that you'd be very hard pressed to find a ASM #14 in the same condition of an Ultimate Spiderman #14 is one of the key reasons why one is worth a few bucks and the other is worth thousands.

[greggy]

Damn you Ricky. You start this thread with no back-up?

[Rickdogg]

HEHEH, i just think that the board needs some good argument w/o on each other. We need to talk about comics baby! YEAH!

[greggy]

You know just as I do that someone will eventually someone off in this thread. It's inevitable so just sit back and watch the carnage!

[Rickdogg]

I agree with you on that point. Like MOS said it's hard to compare books from different ages since they were produced with different materials etc. But IMO, since the Modern books are printed with higher quality paper & processes etc they are way less scarce in NM condition which makes the GOLD book in that 9.0 grade ever so rare and sought after. No?

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Hmmm...I don't know if you picked and selectivly chose what would best fit your argument or what, but you forgot to address my other comments, so I'll post em again for your convenience:

 

"I would say that this debate, starts at the printing press. Were comics printed with the same type of printers and with the same quality as today's books? Another factor is the date stamp, at the Golden Age of comic books, date stamps were a common method for stores that carried comic books to keep track of stock.

 

And don't forget to answer this question please

 

So how many points down do you think a date stamp should bring a 50-60 year old Golden Age book? How many points down should a Golden Age book with cream pages be lowered?

 

Oh yeah, and I fogot to mention the characteristic that marks a pedigree...

[Rickdogg]

MOS,

 

I am chatting with a buddy and I threw out this argument since he also stated that the gold comics were made 60+ yrs ago.

 

Let's say we have 2 show cars competing. One paint job was done in the 60's and one was done in 2000. Obviously the 60's paint job doesn't look as nice since it was prepped differently, sprayed differently, and color sanded differently, but the two cars are both "slabbed" (hehe, sounds funny for a car) with a "Universal Grade 9.6 NM+"

 

-Are the two paint jobs identical? No.

 

-Should we expect the 60's paint job to compete with the fresh 2000 paint? No, because it is from a different time period. Hmmm, what to do? What to do?

 

-Should they have been assigned the same grade in the first place? Probably not if it is a "universal 9.6".

 

CGC as well as any of us shouldn't expect a gold book to compete with something fresh off the rack, but we should call it like it is? A nice paint job from the 60's is definitely not a perfect 9.6 paint job from 2000 and it never will be. CGC should have started off by grading books as they really are. If this was done, a golden age book would never be expected to break that 8.0-9.2 mark and it would be realistic.

 

***I like CGC & I love them to death! I just don't understand this part of the grading system that's all ***

 

 

 

 

[Rickdogg]

About the date stamps...it would depend on the size since some are worse than others. I personally hate date stamps since I mainly collect bronze and modern books which rarely carry something that hideous hehehe.

 

About page quality...I personally think it's hard to downgrade a books grade based on page quality since I personally grade like this:

 

Front cover: 65%

Back Cover: 35%

Pages: 5%

 

I personally dislike poor page quality but I think it effects it's appearance more than it's grade which is based more on it's structure.

[COI]

MOS,

 

I did consider all your comments, I just happen to paste that one line to start off my post. So I'll answer your points individually:

 

" Were comics printed with the same type of printers and with the same quality as today's books?"

 

No they weren't. Gold books were a victim of their time, and as I said it is that very fact which accounts for a large portion of their value. If Action #1 was made the same way books today are made, and warehouses full of gold books were not recycled during the war, you would have a lot more surviving copies. Would it still be in high demand and show big prices in the guide? Yes, because it is a significant key. But would it be listed as $350,000.00? No, because there would be too many surviving copies to justify that price.

 

"Another factor is the date stamp, at the Golden Age of comic books, date stamps were a common method for stores that carried comic books to keep track of stock. "

 

Again, gold was a victim of its time. Like the recycling, the common practice of date stamping is another factor that makes clean, untouched Golden Age comics such a rarity.

 

" So how many points down do you think a date stamp should bring a 50-60 year old Golden Age book? "

 

The same number that would be deducted from a silver or bronze book with the same defect.

 

"How many points down should a Golden Age book with cream pages be lowered? "

 

Also the same as a silver book.

 

"Oh yeah, and I fogot to mention the characteristic that marks a pedigree... "

 

No exception. If these pedigree collectors were so keen on preserving the condition of their books, they shouldn't have marked them. My car may be mine, but I'm not going to pee on it to mark my territory.