What book started the Bronze Age of Comics???? 2 2

[blowout]

"I would say that cover price change '69-'70 is when bronze age started... Yes?? NO??? "

 

 

.....if you started a new age every time there was a price hike, there'd be more category's on this board than poster's...................

[hogations]

More info added to the debate! I just got this from CBG's mailing list. Quite interesting!

 

BACK ISSUES: Fans respond to Mr. Silver Age's definition of the Bronze Age

 

Dear Mr. Silver Age,

So did all of your fans wholeheartedly embrace your notion that the real Bronze

Age of comics began in 1975 with Giant-Size X-Men #1? Did they immediately see

the perfect logic of shifting this period to coincide with a period when

super-heroes again ruled the industry, as the third age of comics would need to

have happen?

Barry A.

Central City

 

Mr. Silver Age says: In a word, Barry, yes. Yes, most of the fans who wrote to

comment on my Bronze Age column said my idea had a lot of merit. But that

doesn't mean my work here is done, because I know that the vast majority of

comics fans don't believe it for a second even after they're presented with the

logic. That was proven when I dropped by an online message board discussing the

topic.

 

To recap: In CBG #1497, I proposed that the real Bronze Age of comics began, not

at some nebulous point in the early 1970s, as many fans accept with no

convincing proof. Instead, it began with Giant-Size X-Men #1 (Summer 75), which

was a catalyst for other super-hero comics, notably DC's New Teen Titans.

 

Together, those comics created a new wave of super-hero popularity - which is

necessary for an age to receive the "third metal" designation of Bronze. Those

two books in turn helped spawn Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which created the

black-and-white boom.

 

CBG readers, at least those who contacted Mr. Silver Age, mostly liked that

concept. For instance, Gerry Sorek agreed, but he further explained his theory

(refined in discussions with other members of the famous CAPA-alpha apazine)

that ages tend to overlap. He believes each age has precursors arising, as the

previous age dies down. He agreed that Giant-Size X-Men was a catalyst but also

considered the start-up of black-and-white independent publisher Star*Reach in

April 1974 as a precursor to the black-and-white boom. (He also had a lot of

interesting theories on the Silver Age, but we'll save those for some other

time.)

 

Aaron Frey agreed that Giant-Size X-Men started something, but he'd figured it

must've started what he termed the Modern Age, since the Bronze Age supposedly

started earlier. My plan worked better for him. Scott Halverson also agreed and

liked the 1975-1989 time frame's synchronicity with the other ages.

 

But a few disagreed. Jim Ginger Martin favored Conan #1 (Oct 70). He argued that

Conan had appeared in book form before Superman, making him a longer-lived

character, and that Arnold Schwarzenegger's Conan movies preceded the 1980s

super-hero movies I'd mentioned as gaining attention for the genre. Frankly, I

didn't find those arguments compelling. He also noted that Conan made Barry

Smith a big name, to show how influential it was, and, as I suspected, "Barry

Smith's Conan got me started in comics. 'Nuff said."

 

That last argument is the key reason I think some collectors have a hard time

accepting a time shift for Bronze Age comics away from the early 1970s to a

period when super-heroes were flourishing again. The collectors who care the

most about early 1970s comics are those who first started reading comics then.

Those comics were so cool to them (in their own Golden Age) that they think the

comics deserve their own age designation.

 

The early 1970s definitely had fans in a thread entitled "What book started the

Bronze Age of Comics?" on the CGC Forum online message board

(http://boards.collectors-society.com/Comics/Bronze Comics). Elrod Mah tipped me

off to it and fought the good fight for Giant-Size X-Men #1. But he and several

like-minded fans were overwhelmed by posters who assumed the Bronze Age began in

the early 1970s, so a 1975 comic book couldn't have been the starting point.

 

Their suggestions included the popular Conan #1, Green Lantern/Green Arrow #76

(Apr 70) due to its relevancy theme, Gwen Stacy's death in Amazing Spider-Man

#121 (Jun 73), and Marvel's first 20¢ comics (Dec 71). Even Marvel Spotlight #2

(Feb 72) was suggested, although the poster admitted it wasn't a big of a deal

in itself but was one of the first comics of the period to feature a new hero -

i.e., Werewolf by Night. Yikes.

 

The consensus seemed to be that "Bronze Age" essentially means "Right after The

Silver Age" or "The Early 1970s."

 

It deserves better than that. That's especially true, since the lack of any

rationale as to why this period should be the third age leads fans to crown

whichever comic book they consider the coolest, hottest, longest-lived, and/or

most representational from the early 1970s as the one that started the age,

regardless of that book's actual influence on other books. One poster summed it

up as, "If Giant-Size X-Men #1 starts the Bronze Age, then that means that Tomb

of Dracula #1 is not a Bronze Age book. But of course it is!"

 

But, of course, it isn't. Make no mistake, Tomb of Dracula was a cool comic

book, but it takes more than a bunch of really cool comics to create an Age.

Look at E.C. For a period of really cool comics to deserve the title of

"Bronze," it should be the third in the series, since it's based on the Olympic

Gold-Silver-Bronze trio. And, since the other two Metallic Ages relate to the

two major rises of super-hero comics, so should the third.

 

Even more significant, there was a period when super-heroes flourished again

that deserves to be the third age. That period began with Giant-Size X-Men #1 in

1975, a new super-hero team concept that influenced many more to come. And it

continued ...

 

Yeah, how long did it continue? I got fairly good agreement that really cool

super-hero comics began appearing in 1975 and continued into the 1980s,

providing the basic criteria for a Bronze Age. But even some of those who agreed

with me on the start of the Bronze Age differed on where it ended. We'll look at

some of those options next week - and also consider, if another new age is going

to begin, when and where it might happen.

 

[plitch]

I was just about to post that... Geez you guys are fast!

[greggy]

Wow! Props for the pimpster!

[PovertyRow]

I am somewhat confused. Platinum is a metal. Platinum is not known for superheroes. Yet the Plat age is ignored in this argument completely because silver is already the third metal age. The "Olympics Gold Silver Bronze" concept is beyond specious. Are we to believe that, forever, only three metal ages are to be applied to Superheroes? I have more to say on this but am kind of ticked off at the ill-concieved logic and condescending tone displayed by. I am also at work and must attend to it. Lastly, it is difficult to judge who is saying what in that long post. Is it mainly Mr Silver Age?

[Kevin Boyd]

It seems like Mr. Silver Age is bolstering his own argument for GS Xmen1 being the first bronze age book. A lot of people wrote in to agree with him, and those that didn't he pretty much shot down because it doesn't fit in with his own views.

 

Platinum books are mostly strip reprints, but I agree that the various ages do not need to be superhero-specific.

 

Which is precisely why I don't personally agree with his argument for that particular book.

 

The bronze age was ushered in by a new wave of horror, adult themes and relevancy topics, and the rise of the anti-hero as the most popular genres in comics.

 

Since Conan is the first of these anti-heroes, Conan #1 makes the most sense. At Marvel he was followed by Ghost Rider, Man-Thing, Werewolf by Night, the Punisher, Warlock's new look, Wolverine, Howard the Duck, etc. If anything, the X-Men's themes of alienation and empowerment were the END results of this new movement, not the beginning of it.

 

At DC they didn't quite embrace the anti-hero concept, but you could say that Green Arrow's new look and ideals (as embraced in GL/GA 76) made him a rebel and an anti-hero, and DC did launch a new line of horror/gothic horror books including Swamp Thing, Stalker, Swords of Sorcery, the Warlord, and even the Shadow (who was very much the anti-hero in the Kaluta books). Some stuck around, others didn't.

 

If you look at contemporary science fiction authors at that time, science fiction had taken a proverbial twist away from the bright-eyed optimism of the 50's and 60's towards the fantasy of Howard (although he had written in the 30's, his late 60's reprintings in paperback form introduced a whole battery of imitators) and Michael Moorcock (whose heroes were decidedly unheroic), and others.

 

In film as well, movies were exploring darker territories. The heroes of the early 70's were more anti-heroes than heroes, Dirty Harry, Shaft, et al. were men with their own set of moral codes that often clashed with the more stolid sectors of society. In horror, films like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre were shocking audiences with the extent of their violence and capturing the imaginations (good or bad) of the audience.

 

To just look back and say the X-Men were the most popular characters of the new age thus they must be the catalyst is probably the most ignorant argument I have heard to date and self-serving to only to the large number of New X-Men fans.

 

Kev

[drbanner]

It seems like Mr. Silver Age is bolstering his own argument for GS Xmen1 being the first bronze age book. A lot of people wrote in to agree with him, and those that didn't he pretty much shot down because it doesn't fit in with his own views. To just look back and say the X-Men were the most popular characters of the new age thus they must be the catalyst is probably the most ignorant argument I have heard to date and self-serving to only to the large number of New X-Men fans.

 

Nail...meet head!! The consensus on this board is that the bronze age started somewhere in the 1969-1971 range (Conan 1), and I would bet you my left...big toe... that 9 out of 10 dealers would pick Conan 1 as the start of the Bronze Age if given the choice between it and GS X-men 1. I like CBG and think the editorials can be interesting, but after reading one that stated that the price spreads between G-F-NM should DECREASE(!?!?!?), well, I take what they say with two grains of salt.

[Guest]

Haven't read all the responses, but I have read Mr. Silver Age's summary in CBG.

I'd just note that his requirement that the Bronze Age be tied to super heroes as were the Golden/Silver Ages is just an assumption. Old time fans did previously speak of the Silver Age as the "Second Heroic Age." On that basis, I'd be prepared to speak of Giant Size X-Men #1 as the beginning of a "Third Heroic Age."

But the beginning of Bronze? No.

 

Instead we have to bow to popular usage. Just as the Infantino Flash, the Ditko

Spider-Man, the Kane G.L. and the beginnings of the JLA and FF are universally understood to be Silver Age, so too is there overwhelming consensus that Barry Smith's Conan, GL/GA, Neal Adams Batman, Kirby's Fourth World, Wrightson's Swamp Thing and the Kree-Skrull War all belong to the Bronze Age.

 

So my choice for the beginning of the Bronze Age is Detective 395, the first O'Neil/Adams Batman story, cover dated January 1970. Just as the Silver Age brought forward a new artistic take to mainstream comics (Infantino, Anderson, Gil Kane, Ditko, Nick Cardy, Romita, Kirby's "cosmic" style), so too did the Bronze Age usher in Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, Barry Smith, etc. as the models to emulate. Also, the early 70's GL, Batman, Superman were as different from their 1960's counterparts as were the Silver Age heroes from the Golden Age.

 

The Bronze Age ended with G.S. X-Men #1, which began the Third Heroic Age, or the Modern Age, or the post-Newstand Age, in which the direct market was king.

 

And that is that. Cheers...Zonker

[supapimp]

this article just opened up a whole new can of worms, the free press it got for this forum will result in higher traffic and new board members.

[Kevin Boyd]

Oh no... not more Anonymous posters

 

Great to see the forum getting some recognition, as we've had some great debates here.

 

So long as we don't start up a creative fiction board where we all create our own continuing stories starring ourselves fighting with and/or against fictional characters and other super-heroes then the CGC BOARDS ROCK!

 

We've moved from metal to plastic, we're in the Barex Age!

 

Kev

 

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

This guy is a pure, unadulterated insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

 

'nuff said.

[comicinvestor-migration]

To just look back and say the X-Men were the most popular characters of the new age thus they must be the catalyst is probably the most ignorant argument I have heard to date and self-serving to only to the large number of New X-Men fans.

 

That's exactly what is happening, as no one could be as stupid as this guy makes himself out to be. Magazines need to sell copies, and the easiest way to do this is to cater to the lowest common demominator.

 

Plus, why doesn't he answer the real question: Of how his date of 1975 for the start of the Bronze Age leaves virtually all of the popular Bronze Age characters out of the mix, and really only includes like Nova, Ms. Marvel, and Devil Dinosaur as the "Bronze Age".

 

In other words, what came AFTER Giant-Size X-Men that makes it the start of an Age?

 

I'm hoping that article is just X-men hype to bring in the readers, since someone like this walking the streets worries me.

[comicinvestor-migration]

Here are some of the character intros in the CGC Board consensus Marvel Bronze Age (pre-Giant Size X-Men 1), starting with Conan 1:

 

Wolverine, Punisher, Deathlok, Ghost Rider, Thanos, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Bullseye, Blade, Dracula, Werewolf, Kull, Son of Satan, Man-Wolf, Morbius, Killraven, Man-Thing, Brother Voodoo, Living Mummy, Mantis, John Carter, The Cat, New Age Warlock, Starlin's Captain Marvel, Eternals, Howard the Duck, Doc Savage, Red Sonja, Skull, Golem.

 

 

Here are the character intros of Mr. Silver Age's Marvel Bronze Age (post-Giant Size X-Men 1, pre-Modern):

 

Micronauts, Devil Dinosaur, Nova, Rom, Spider-woman, Sabretooth and Ms. Marvel

 

 

I dare Mr. Silver Age to post these lists in his self-serving newsletter, and let the readers decide. Oh and feel free to add any new characters that were introduced post-Giant Size X-Men/pre-Modern; there's gotta be some real classics.

 

[scottish]

I don't know CI. I think a pretty good arguement good be made for those second group of characters...Rom especially!

[comicinvestor-migration]

Now read my above list and then check out the Silver Age insufficiently_thoughtful_person's reply:

 

I got fairly good agreement that really cool super-hero comics began appearing in 1975 and into the 80's

 

Hahahahaha. Go Rom Go!!

[scottish]

I remember having a whole slew of Rom books in my EARLY collecting days. Sadly I no longer have them. Oh the whole they left in my soul!

[FlyingDonut]

Rom....

[scottish]

Dan! Don't leave us hangin'! What's your thought?

[greggy]

Let's bombard Maggie with EMAILs asking for that loser's @ss to be removed and to be sent to some comic re-education camp. You can be the headmaster!

[bronzejunkie]

I'm from the camp of believers that think that 'Weird War Tales#1' was the first and true start to the bronze age. I don't care what anyone tells me. That comic was just to damned influential to overlook, hell it set the tone for the next five years for the two big companies. Granted X-MenGS#1 is neck and neck with it, but for my money it's Weird war all the way, also a much cooler cover as well.