What book started the Bronze Age of Comics???? 2 2

[Zonker]

Hey boys & girls, we gotta flog this horse some more.

 

Occurs to me that the 1-book-starts-the-age philosophy does not work. We can all agree the Golden Age began with Action #1 June 1938, right? Therefore books like Detective Comics #1 March 1937 belong to a previous period, perhaps the Platinum Age. But does that mean the June 1938 issue of Detective Comics (#16 to be exact) instantly became Golden Age as well? Of course not, we seem to all understand that Detective Comics "participated" in the Golden Age beginning with issue 27 May 1939 when the Batman was introduced.

 

Another example: The Silver Age begins with Showcase #4, October 1956. Do all the Marvel monster books beginning with the October 1956 issues immediately become Silver Age? Overstreet would have us believe Strange Tales 51 is the first Silver Age issue of that title, but really it is indistinguishable from #50 or #52. Fantastic Four #1 hit in November 1961-- that is surely Marvel Silver Age, but it does nothing to elevate Strange Tales #90 (also November 1961) to Silver Age status. I'd argue Strange Tales "participated" in the Silver Age beginning with #101, when the Human Torch solo feature arrived.

 

So therefore we can say that the Bronze Age began first in the Green Lantern book with #76 April 1970, with the Batman titles beginning with Detective 395 (January 1970), and Conan and Tomb of Dracula were Bronze from the beginning.

 

See where I'm going? The question now is: What book started the Bronze Age in each title? And here is the beginnings of a list:

 

Fantastic Four 103 October 1970--First non-Kirby issue

Amazing Spider Man 100 September 1971--First non Stan Lee issue

Detective 395 January 1970-- First O'Neil-Adams issue

Batman 219 February 1970-- First Adams art this title

GL/GA 76 April 1970-- First O'Neil-Adams, Green Arrow issue

Flash 195 March 1970-- First Gil Kane art this title

Superman 233 January 1971-- First Schwartz-edited issue. O'Neil/Swan/Anderson

Justice League 78 February 1970-- JLA leave earth; Black Canary joins

Superboy 184 December 1971--First Cockrum Legion

Action 419 December 1971-- First Schwartz-edited issue.

Jimmy Olsen 133 October 1970-- First Kirby issue

 

Anyone want to add to the list?

 

Cheers,

Z.

 

 

[sullypython]

Captain America 133 - Jan/1971 - (Cap and Falcon team up begins)

Daredevil 81 - Nov/1971 - (Black Widow team ups begin)

 

[supapimp]

giant size x-men 1 (1st appearence/start of new team) summer/75

[aardvark88]

Hulk 141 b/c it rhymes w/ Hulk #181 & is easy to remember. #141 (7/71) 1st Doc Sampson.

[Darthdiesel]

USM 1white variant... because USM is the answer to all!!!

[Zonker]

Forgot a few...

Teen Titans 25 Jan/Feb 1970-- "Titans Kill a Saint?" classic; 1st Lilith; Robin leaves.

Brave & Bold 98 Aug/Sep 1971-- first Jim Aparo art

Aquaman 50 Mar/Apr 1970-- Deadman by Adams begins crossover

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I know that several of us agree that it's not really a single issue that starts an Age so much as a trend or shift in sensibility, although often we tend to boil things down to easy-to-remember single issues. Few would argue about Action #1 or Showcase #4 for instance.

 

In the next Price Guide, we hope to have a feature article about the many Ages in comics from 1828 to the present day that just may clarify our standing on where and when certain eras begin and end with a bit more detail than we've had in the past. As with many such debates, however, ours is only one possible way of looking at things. I'm quite sure the discussion will continue well beyond this one article .

 

Arnold

[Zonker]

Cool, I'll be looking forward to the article.

I do hope this means the recent Comic Book Marketplace article on the subject does not represent Gemstone/Overstreet's opinion on the matter.

 

Surely we can all agree that whatever started the Bronze Age, it most definitely was not...

Weird War Tales #1 (Sept/Oct 1971)!

 

Cheers,

Z.

[comicinvestor-migration]

Just pick any important book from 1970-72 or so and you've got my vote. ie. Not the johnny-come-lately Giant-Size Xmen.

[blowout]

you mean GS X-men #1 DIDN'T start the bronze age?

and here was i thinking that the punisher was a silver age character

[underthebigw]

I'm not sure I agree with, but this is sure fun. I think you touched on most of DC's-and I find it hard to argue with any of those. Each and every one (with one exception) of those books is undoubtedly a BA issue, having more in common with what followed than what preceeded. Not only yours, but Sully's and Zonker's. The only one I don't agree with is the Aquaman--in my mind the Deadman storyline is solid SA.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I hate to say it, but I'm not aware of the CBM article. But no matter what we present in the Guide, I'm sure it will be just one of countless opinions on this subject. Seems to be part of the fun of collecting comics.

[comicinvestor-migration]

Sure arnoldt, there will always be differing opinions, but I think what most people are saying it to keep the choice within the accepted boundaries of time and space. No science fiction "visitors from the future", no mysterious time machines, no worm holes, etc.

 

Translation: 1975's Giant-Size X-Men 1, while an important book, could never have started the Bronze Age simply due to its late publication date. Unless of course, you only want Ms. Marvel, Nova, Devil Dinosaur and ROM as your top Bronze Age books/characters.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I think no matter what date, comic, and/or comics we note in the article for the start of the Bronze Age, I can probably say with no fear of contradiction that Giant-Size X-Men will NOT be one of them. 1975 is simply too late by any stretch of the imagination.

[Zonker]

It's probably of general interest for all, so check out issue 86 October 2001 of CBM. In it, there were at least 3 opinions expressed, including the frequently-mentioned GL #76, the frequently-hotly-debated GS X-Men #1, and the laughable Weird War Tales #1.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[Zonker]

Reasonable people can of course differ. Perhaps the original Aquaman run in its entirety should be relegated to the Silver Age. But there's a world of difference between the early defining Silver Age-ish Julie Schwartz books, and the Skeates-Aparo-Giordano final issues of Aquaman. Really need several strata of Silver Age-ness, such as:

 

Early Silver Age: Showcase 4 up until Fantastic Four #1

 

Middle (or "Marvel Age"): Fantastic Four #1, up until 1966 (when Romita replaces Ditko on Amazing Spider-Man)

 

Late Silver Age: 1966-1969, including as defining characteristics:

-Steranko's Nick Fury

-Adams Deadman

-all Giordano edited DC books (SAG Aquaman, Creeper, Hawk&Dove, etc.)

-Romita Spider-Man

-Cosmic Kirby Fantastic Four

-O'Neil/Aragones/Cardy Bat Lash

-Joe Orlando's revival of horror (I mean "mystery") anthologies at DC

-no more Infantino Flash (Ross Andru instead)

-Infantino-initiated experimentation as editor-in-chief at National (aka DC)

 

...but maybe I need to move this over to the Silver Age board!

 

Cheers,

Z.

[comicinvestor-migration]

During this whole debate, I must have read 50-60% of the marvels from 1970-72 and I find it laughable that Conan #1 is not part of any serious "Start of the Bronze Age" discussion.

 

I started out on another angle (Marvel Try-Out's - Spotlight, Feature, Premiere) but the more I read and the more information I gathered, Conan #1 stood out like a sore thumb. Once you realize that many of the popular characters that came after (like Wolvie, Punisher, Deathlok, etc.) are basically "Conan with Claws" or "Conan with a Gun", the link becomes even more clear.

[Zonker]

Yes, the CBM article did mention Conan #1, but I've now put it away and no longer recall why Conan #1 was not selected as their starting point. (Whatever the reason, it must have been really lame to prefer Weird War Tales #1 to it...)

 

In a previous post, I postulated that the Bronze Age swept into different titles in different times during 1970 to 1971. Certainly a strong case can be made that the Bronze Age truly arrived at Marvel in books cover-dated October 1970, i.e. Conan the Barbarian #1 (a great thing) and Fantastic Four #103, the first non-Kirby FF (not a good thing). It's just that some of us DC readers find evidence of the Bronze Age in DC books cover-dated earlier than October 1970.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[comicinvestor-migration]

Definitely, and I always state that I'm referring to the Marvel Bronze Age when I use Conan #1 as an example.

 

I also feel that the Bronze Age emphasis of each company was far different during that era, and that Marvel made the more concerted effort to "try something new" while DC more evolved their existing characters, while also dabbling in a bit of the new stuff.

[Guest]

Conan #1 definitely gets my vote for start of the Bronze age.