Biggest OA Prices

[rob_react]

I would go nuts trying to put this data together. Maybe 1 out of every 50 prices I've uncovered for my comic research have been related in confidence. Based on the hushed tones in this thread the reverse is true with original art. For every 50 "mega deals" 1 is suitable for public consumption.

[bocaratondefense]

In the end, I wasn't surprised by the winning bid (which as far as I know, is a record for a Romita ASM interior). It didn't matter that few outside of comic fandom know or care about this particular page-- it had already been valued at "$100K" on HOLLYWOOD TREASURE. That was a pretty good clue as to where it would finish.

 

Did this splash sell for less than the Romita interior page with Mary Jane meeting Peter Parker for the first time?

 

 

 

 

[romitaman]

No..... the ASM 50 splash sold for alot more...

[markseifert]

I would go nuts trying to put this data together. Maybe 1 out of every 50 prices I've uncovered for my comic research have been related in confidence. Based on the hushed tones in this thread the reverse is true with original art. For every 50 "mega deals" 1 is suitable for public consumption.

 

In 5-10 years I suspect the prevailing attitude will have shifted to "link or it didn't happen". The shift is happening in high-end comics (not completely, but still), and certainly you've played a part in helping that along.

[rob_react]

I would go nuts trying to put this data together. Maybe 1 out of every 50 prices I've uncovered for my comic research have been related in confidence. Based on the hushed tones in this thread the reverse is true with original art. For every 50 "mega deals" 1 is suitable for public consumption.

 

In 5-10 years I suspect the prevailing attitude will have shifted to "link or it didn't happen". The shift is happening in high-end comics (not completely, but still), and certainly you've played a part in helping that along.

 

I'd like to think I've played a part at the very top end. GPA and the Heritage archives have done so much for the breadth of the hobby, offering transparency for pretty much any book out there.

 

I hope you're right about the shift towards more transparency. I'm just not sure it's going to be as smooth as it was on the comic side. With very few exceptions, people on the comic side are pretty open about the prices they get and even people who are normally a bit quiet about prices paid will occasionally reach out with some great data.

 

From what I've seen, the top end of the art world is intentionally opaque. When I'm talking to knowledgeable art collectors it feels like I've stepped in a spy novel. Significant pieces and collections can't be publicly confirmed to exist, prices can't be confirmed, transactions can't be spoken of outside of those who know the secret handshake... Sunshine would be a big attitude shift.

 

[jimjum12]

One major impediment to transparency in the OA market are the concerns over clear title and legality of ownership. Many great pieces reached the market through "unorthodox" channels and even though many of the creators have expressed willingness to let bygones be bygones this is not set in stone. Most QA will also NOT fit into conventional safe deposit boxes and are kept in collectors homes....making discretion a very logical preference. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[rob_react]

The ownership issue is certainly understandable. Long-term it needs to get cleared up, but that's another thread.

 

As for the discretion issue... I don't know, ArtNews publishes an annual list of the top fine art collectors listing them by name, location and specialty. Almost any of them will have individual pieces more expensive than the total value of most original comic art collections. It doesn't seem like that's been a huge problem. And I'm not asking for anything like that. I'd be happy with

 

"Piece X sold to a private collector for $xxx,xxx" and "Pages from Fantastic Four #xx are known to exist"

 

I don't need to know who owns what or to get the guy's address...

[jimjum12]

The secrecy of high end transactions ( few and erratic benchmarks) would make it difficult to insure....provenance questions also don't help. The Fine Art is fairly easy to appraise while the Comic stuff is still an emerging market in it's infancy.....all that creates a "perfect" catch-22 situation...not good for you and I, whose inquiring minds need to know Personally, I would be happy even to know the existence of vast reams of OA.....say , for example, the cover to Fantastic Four # 8, which in a perfectl world really should be mine. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Nexus]

As for the discretion issue... I don't know, ArtNews publishes an annual list of the top fine art collectors listing them by name, location and specialty. Almost any of them will have individual pieces more expensive than the total value of most original comic art collections. It doesn't seem like that's been a huge problem. And I'm not asking for anything like that. I'd be happy with

 

"Piece X sold to a private collector for $xxx,xxx" and "Pages from Fantastic Four #xx are known to exist"

 

I don't need to know who owns what or to get the guy's address...

 

The problem with that is you may get fed misinformation like "X-MEN #1 splash was rumored to sell for $250K". Which then inevitably gets distorted along the way to "X-MEN #1 splash sold for $250K". And it's all calculated BS you'd be unintentionally helping to spread.

 

I don't have an answer for learning about private deals other than keeping your ear to the ground, networking, doing your homework. It takes a serious investment of time and energy. Otherwise, stick to the public sales as much as possible (even those can be funky). The reality is that most OA insiders like to hold information tightly so they can feel special, and/or they're easily cowed. To wit:

 

general public: There are several different groups of collectors that do not advertise some or all of what they have or what changes hands and the prices/trades involved. Collectors and artists do not circulate this information openly. Those who talk get cut off quickly and for good.

 

 

[Bronty]

You know I agree with you in most every facet. In fairness though, the information can also be valuable. Let's say I know where a $50k piece resides and the owner is totally off the grid. I'm the only one that knows about the piece, pretty much. Why would I say anything to anybody. If somebody comes along looking for that piece and willing to pay $75k I might earn $25k on a flip. Opening my mouth closes that door; the information alone is valuable. I can understand why some people would choose to stay quiet in that scenario.

 

[bocaratondefense]

You know I agree with you in most every facet. In fairness though, the information can also be valuable. Let's say I know where a $50k piece resides and the owner is totally off the grid. I'm the only one that knows about the piece, pretty much. Why would I say anything to anybody. If somebody comes along looking for that piece and willing to pay $75k I might earn $25k on a flip. Opening my mouth closes that door; the information alone is valuable. I can understand why some people would choose to stay quiet in that scenario.

 

 

You are right in that the information can be very valuable for certain art.

 

In your hypothetical, would you buy the piece for $50,000 first and then sell it? Or would you pretend that you own the piece or that you represent the owner, and tell potential customers your price is $75,000?

 

I have seen it done both ways.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bronty]

personally, I try to never lie. I might not tell the person everything they want to know but what I do tell people I try to be straight with them. this is not in comic art as I really don't deal in it, but I do have my fingers in other pies where the lessons learned are the same.

[rob_react]

As for the discretion issue... I don't know, ArtNews publishes an annual list of the top fine art collectors listing them by name, location and specialty. Almost any of them will have individual pieces more expensive than the total value of most original comic art collections. It doesn't seem like that's been a huge problem. And I'm not asking for anything like that. I'd be happy with

 

"Piece X sold to a private collector for $xxx,xxx" and "Pages from Fantastic Four #xx are known to exist"

 

I don't need to know who owns what or to get the guy's address...

 

The problem with that is you may get fed misinformation like "X-MEN #1 splash was rumored to sell for $250K". Which then inevitably gets distorted along the way to "X-MEN #1 splash sold for $250K". And it's all calculated BS you'd be unintentionally helping to spread.

 

I can tell you form experience as a conduit for this type of information on the comic side, this assumption is untrue. It happens all the time with my comic book research. I get clarifications, retractions and downright rebuttals all the time. That's what transparency does, it cuts through the BS.

 

If the original comic art hobby transformed from a total secrecy, insiders-only club to one where information was freely shared this would HELP collectors on the periphery from getting preyed upon by the all-knowing, all-powerful insiders.

 

Buying big art from an insider is like investing in the stock market and only being able to get the CEO's opinion of the company.

[Bronty]

yeah but the CEO likes that setup and doesn't frankly care about johnny investor

 

Of course it would help those on the periphery but at cost to the insiders - so why would the insiders let anyone in?

 

Besides, I suspect tax is another reason for secrecy. Something tells me not all of these sales are reported to the IRS.

[rob_react]

yeah but the CEO likes that setup and doesn't frankly care about johnny investor

 

Of course it would help those on the periphery but at cost to the insiders - so why would the insiders let anyone in?

 

Besides, I suspect tax is another reason for secrecy. Something tells me not all of these sales are reported to the IRS.

 

Oh, I understand completely the attitude and motivations of the insiders in this situation. It's just unhealthy.

 

And is there any question why I've never spent tens of thousands of dollars on comics and never more than a few hundred dollars on any piece of original art

 

[Bronty]

when/if you find art that really means something to you, there's nothing like it. I can't get excited about most comic art though and the stuff I do like costs too much for what it is.

[markseifert]

Oh, I understand completely the attitude and motivations of the insiders in this situation. It's just unhealthy.

 

Ironically, it's also contrary to honoring the contributions of those who created the work, because as you noted it creates situations where some pieces can't even be acknowledged to exist.

 

I think the actual numbers and who owns what are a lot less interesting to outsiders than people think. The OMG that still exists LOOK THAT IS SO FREAKING COOL works without that. The AF 15 pages prove that. Many people just want to see the history.

 

We all know this situation has been discussed repeatedly, but I do suspect social and market forces will start to bring about a shift in the relatively near future. Time will tell.

[rob_react]

when/if you find art that really means something to you, there's nothing like it. I can't get excited about most comic art though and the stuff I do like costs too much for what it is.

 

Oh no doubt. I'm lucky in that a lot of what I like is NEW. So I can buy cool pieces when the mood strikes me without having to dive into the shark tank.

[rob_react]

Oh, I understand completely the attitude and motivations of the insiders in this situation. It's just unhealthy.

 

Ironically, it's also contrary to honoring the contributions of those who created the work, because as you noted it creates situations where some pieces can't even be acknowledged to exist.

 

That's the one that drives me crazy. Not even being able to acknowledge that something exists? Lame.

 

I've been in threads here where big *insert marvel superhero team* collectors ask about original art from *insert key issues of their comic book* and even I've know that *insert secretive original art collector* owns pages from those issues. But... the Original Art Omerta™ kicks in and everyone just plays dumb.

[inovrmihd]

There's another, alternative angle to this thread. As mentioned earlier, many if not most of these high end transactions stay pretty private. The cone of silence is often pretty impenetrable, and the list given so far is pretty incomplete. But even more amazing are the high, six figure level cash offers that are legitimately offered for key art that is DECLINED! I know first hand of MANY such offers that are first made and ultimately refused, and I'm not even as big an OA insider as a lot of guys even on this list. It makes sense when you think about it, in that the grade 'A' material is usually the last thing a collector wants to part with, as well as being the most liquid , so it takes really aggressive offers just to have any realistic shot at prying it out of someones collection, and even then it's often not enough. On top of that, the really good stuff is often owned by guys who frankly just don't need the money, so you've got to really blow them away with nutty offers to just to get their attention.

 

Thoughts?

 

Scott Williams

 

 

Scott, you mentioned that the A material is the most liquid. Would you mind elaborating? Are their a lot of collectors out that have both the ability and inclination to pay 6 figures for something that is legitimate grade A material? Lets say that you have a grade a pieice and the most recent comparable piece sold for X dollars. Presumably that was shopped to the BSDs and X dollars was the highest any of them were willing to pay. If we assume that your art is of equal quality, would it be easily sold if the asking price was a little less? If the "top" three or four collectors pass, are there another 5 or 10 that will likely step up, or would it have to be repriced substantially lower? You say that you are amazed by the number of 6 figure offers turned down. In your experience, how often does the opposite happen, ie. is there any high end art that has been offered to the BSD's and gone unsold? I am not talking about the stuff on dealers websites. I am talking about pieces that have been shown only to a select few for fear of getting stale, and are sitting out there offered but unsold. Thanks in advance for any response.