Biggest OA Prices

[Mephisto]

Oh, I understand completely the attitude and motivations of the insiders in this situation. It's just unhealthy.

 

Ironically, it's also contrary to honoring the contributions of those who created the work, because as you noted it creates situations where some pieces can't even be acknowledged to exist.

 

That's the one that drives me crazy. Not even being able to acknowledge that something exists? Lame.

 

I've been in threads here where big *insert marvel superhero team* collectors ask about original art from *insert key issues of their comic book* and even I've know that *insert secretive original art collector* owns pages from those issues. But... the Original Art Omerta™ kicks in and everyone just plays dumb.

 

This is one thing that is going to hurt the hobby down the road. A lot of comic art especially stuff like late Silver Age and Bronze Age is probably not going to sustain value very well. The prices are too high already and with so much secretiveness that goes on it will help keep newer collector's from being interested. A lot of the art from this time frame has poor eye appeal due to age and the creative process done back then.

 

As younger collector's come into the hobby nostalgia won't be there for these which seems to drive comic OA to an incredible degree. There is only going to be a handful of art that has any true historical relevance. Right now a lot of collector's who grew up in this era have the disposable income, but they are already starting to hit middle age (Sorry).

 

At this point being out of college a few years I am starting to make money to afford A LOT nicer pieces, but at this point I have lost A LOT of interest in collecting older art due to the closed door antics. Although, I can't complain since I have discovered I enjoy painted pieces much more than pen and ink. Paintings tend to be newer and much cheaper considering the characters and genres I collect. Not that modern art isn't over priced either. I just don't seem to overpay as much.

[comix4fun]

You know I agree with you in most every facet. In fairness though, the information can also be valuable. Let's say I know where a $50k piece resides and the owner is totally off the grid. I'm the only one that knows about the piece, pretty much. Why would I say anything to anybody. If somebody comes along looking for that piece and willing to pay $75k I might earn $25k on a flip. Opening my mouth closes that door; the information alone is valuable. I can understand why some people would choose to stay quiet in that scenario.

 

 

You are right in that the information can be very valuable for certain art.

 

In your hypothetical, would you buy the piece for $50,000 first and then sell it? Or would you pretend that you own the piece or that you represent the owner, and tell potential customers your price is $75,000?

 

I have seen it done both ways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

People would not actually try to do something like that would they?

 

I mean, in this hobby and at that price level, you stand a pretty good chance of running into an art collector that's also an attorney (or with the cash to have easy access to an attorney). Sounds like a dangerous practice that could blow up in their face.

 

Anyone that would try that must be putting cash before morals, and common sense. It's a small hobby too, not long before word of that practice got around and they are on the outside of the hobby persona non grata.

 

Sad.

[westform]

I have had this happen to me more than once...

[groovyedwin]

Reinforces the point that it is best to just ship your art to an auction house to avoid this behavior unless you are very familiar with the other party.

 

Edwin

[Galactus]

yeah but the CEO likes that setup and doesn't frankly care about johnny investor

 

Of course it would help those on the periphery but at cost to the insiders - so why would the insiders let anyone in?

 

Besides, I suspect tax is another reason for secrecy. Something tells me not all of these sales are reported to the IRS.

 

As close friends to one of those "insiders", i have been informed of certain deals and offers that have gone on in this hobby, with the explicit instructions to not mention this info to anyone. Trust seems to be a big issue as most of these "insiders" have at some point or another informed someone in secrecy, only to have that trust betrayed. This has led to an almost isolationist standpoint from the masses and only dealing with other like minded individuals.

 

What some people have to understand is that when dealing with A class pieces, the amount of contact/harrasment that can sometime ensue from others is huge. Inquiring as to the potential for sale, inquiring as to the potential for trade, making offers, asking about other A class pieces in their collection, inquiring about other A class pieces that others may have etc - Sometimes there are valid reasons not to showcase some of these A pieces.

 

 

[Galactus]

Oh, I understand completely the attitude and motivations of the insiders in this situation. It's just unhealthy.

 

Ironically, it's also contrary to honoring the contributions of those who created the work, because as you noted it creates situations where some pieces can't even be acknowledged to exist.

 

That's the one that drives me crazy. Not even being able to acknowledge that something exists? Lame.

 

I've been in threads here where big *insert marvel superhero team* collectors ask about original art from *insert key issues of their comic book* and even I've know that *insert secretive original art collector* owns pages from those issues. But... the Original Art Omerta™ kicks in and everyone just plays dumb.

 

Come on Rob, the majority of the time that this is brought up it is relating to Silver Age Marvel art and nearly everone knows that 99% of all Marvel Silver Age art exists (besides some of the real early covers). Its not so much discovery, rather confirmation that people are after.

 

 

[rob_react]

Oh, I understand completely the attitude and motivations of the insiders in this situation. It's just unhealthy.

 

Ironically, it's also contrary to honoring the contributions of those who created the work, because as you noted it creates situations where some pieces can't even be acknowledged to exist.

 

That's the one that drives me crazy. Not even being able to acknowledge that something exists? Lame.

 

I've been in threads here where big *insert marvel superhero team* collectors ask about original art from *insert key issues of their comic book* and even I've know that *insert secretive original art collector* owns pages from those issues. But... the Original Art Omerta™ kicks in and everyone just plays dumb.

 

Come on Rob, the majority of the time that this is brought up it is relating to Silver Age Marvel art and nearly everone knows that 99% of all Marvel Silver Age art exists (besides some of the real early covers). Its not so much discovery, rather confirmation that people are after.

 

 

Maybe the people that visit this corner of the forums do, but I would bet that a majority of the people who frequent the forums would be surprised at how much has survived.

[markseifert]

What some people have to understand is that when dealing with A class pieces, the amount of contact/harrasment that can sometime ensue from others is huge.

 

To handle situations like this, one or more trusted authorities can emerge to publish data without divulging other transaction details. Rob is serving in this role on the high end comic side.

[rob_react]

Yeah, again, I'm not saying we need to publish the home address of both parties in the transaction or place the pages in a collection when we say that pages from *world's greatest comic magazine* #"key issue" exist.

[Galactus]

What some people have to understand is that when dealing with A class pieces, the amount of contact/harrasment that can sometime ensue from others is huge.

 

To handle situations like this, one or more trusted authorities can emerge to publish data without divulging other transaction details. Rob is serving in this role on the high end comic side.

 

Yes but then you get into the whole debate about who can be trusted with this much information, and one that the majority of high end collectors would rely on for utter secrecy.

 

If we went one step further and tried to establish a GPA for art, then you would also need someone or some organisation that has the ability to verify the sale price of pieces, which is a whole other problem.

 

 

[adamstrange]

Yeah, again, I'm not saying we need to publish the home address of both parties in the transaction or place the pages in a collection when we say that pages from *world's greatest comic magazine* #"key issue" exist.

I agree. It would be useless without the alarm pass code and the combination to the safe.

[markseifert]

What some people have to understand is that when dealing with A class pieces, the amount of contact/harrasment that can sometime ensue from others is huge.

 

To handle situations like this, one or more trusted authorities can emerge to publish data without divulging other transaction details. Rob is serving in this role on the high end comic side.

 

Yes but then you get into the whole debate about who can be trusted with this much information, and one that the majority of high end collectors would rely on for utter secrecy.

 

This stuff can and will develop organically.

 

Here's the thing. There is a market for this genre of information now -- a broader result of the ebay "what's this worth?" era. Therefore, people will attempt to meet that market need.

 

Hence television shows like Hollywood Treasures, Auction Kings, and Pawn Stars. And auction houses who find a national media receptive to stories about men who bought Tec 27 off the newsstand, and artists who saved GA cover art from the trash.

 

(Not to mention entities like CGC who provide previously-obscure evaluation expertise for a small fee. That's also meeting the same market need for information)

 

Judging by lengthy discussion here, some feel that some information being presented is imperfect or biased. I have no opinion on that, but I do know that those who are fullfilling the market hunger for information are benefiting from it. Others in the market will soon start to realize this is advantageous in the emerging climate.

 

I'm betting that information marketplace will continue to emerge ultimately resulting in the development of one or more impartial, trusted authorities.

[CollectingFool]

This stuff can and will develop organically.

 

Keep dreaming. I've said it a dozen times already and it's still true, the best anyone will get is the appearance of transparency and the data will be manipulated by those same players that are guarding their secrets. There are only two sure ways to get on the inside track:

 

1) Have a TON of money to spend. Information will flow in your direction. Some insiders will become your best friend and feed you info. If you have the money to spend and you're smart about it, the hobby will be your beyatch.

 

2) Have some incredibly rare art and let people know you have it. Again, people will stampede to your door and if you're smart about it, you can find out what you want.

 

Everyone else has to do the legwork, pay attention, network and try to self-educate.

 

Finally, the best way to be content in this hobby is stop thinking of it as an investment or commodity. These are unique items so as much as everyone tries, you can't relate it to CGC books and how that market works. If that's the type of structure you're looking for go buy pork bellies.

 

 

[bocaratondefense]

This stuff can and will develop organically.

 

Keep dreaming. I've said it a dozen times already and it's still true, the best anyone will get is the appearance of transparency and the data will be manipulated by those same players that are guarding their secrets. There are only two sure ways to get on the inside track:

 

1) Have a TON of money to spend. Information will flow in your direction. Some insiders will become your best friend and feed you info. If you have the money to spend and you're smart about it, the hobby will be your beyatch.

 

2) Have some incredibly rare art and let people know you have it. Again, people will stampede to your door and if you're smart about it, you can find out what you want.

 

Everyone else has to do the legwork, pay attention, network and try to self-educate.

 

Finally, the best way to be content in this hobby is stop thinking of it as an investment or commodity. These are unique items so as much as everyone tries, you can't relate it to CGC books and how that market works. If that's the type of structure you're looking for go buy pork bellies.

 

 

 

Why bother? I am as amused as the next guy, when I hear about record setting auction prices and the BSD six-figure transactions. But having access to that information doesn't help me at all in any of my purchases or sales. For the vast majority of collectors, educating themselves about prices for Frazetta paintings, Herge Tintin, Ditko Spidey covers, SA Marvel covers obtained through dubious channels, etc have nothing to do with what they are collecting.

 

 

 

 

[markseifert]

This stuff can and will develop organically.

 

Keep dreaming. I've said it a dozen times already and it's still true, the best anyone will get is the appearance of transparency and the data will be manipulated by those same players that are guarding their secrets.

 

Any players so doing are exploiting a market flaw, and will continue to do so until the market corrects the flaw.

 

The market will either correct the flaw or remain static (which over time = death). Either path is possible, I suspect the market will ultimately choose to transform.

[Nexus]

You know I agree with you in most every facet. In fairness though, the information can also be valuable. Let's say I know where a $50k piece resides and the owner is totally off the grid. I'm the only one that knows about the piece, pretty much. Why would I say anything to anybody. If somebody comes along looking for that piece and willing to pay $75k I might earn $25k on a flip. Opening my mouth closes that door; the information alone is valuable. I can understand why some people would choose to stay quiet in that scenario.

 

 

You are right in that the information can be very valuable for certain art.

 

In your hypothetical, would you buy the piece for $50,000 first and then sell it? Or would you pretend that you own the piece or that you represent the owner, and tell potential customers your price is $75,000?

 

I have seen it done both ways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

People would not actually try to do something like that would they?

 

I mean, in this hobby and at that price level, you stand a pretty good chance of running into an art collector that's also an attorney (or with the cash to have easy access to an attorney). Sounds like a dangerous practice that could blow up in their face.

 

Anyone that would try that must be putting cash before morals, and common sense. It's a small hobby too, not long before word of that practice got around and they are on the outside of the hobby persona non grata.

 

Sad.

 

Very sad.

 

What you're hinting at is much worse, but this does remind me of a discussion here a while back. Worth a quick read for newbies (start from this post and work your way down):

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=48&Number=3428691&Searchpage=1&Main=168894&Words=Collector%2BA+Nexus&topic=0&Search=true#Post3428691

[bocaratondefense]

I have had this happen to me more than once...

 

Sorry to hear about that, Dan.

 

So did someone offer to sell you pages that they did not actually own? Or did someone shop around your original art (pretending to own them) without your authorization?

 

In either case, that is pretty scummy.

 

 

 

 

[CollectingFool]

What you're hinting at is much worse, but this does remind me of a discussion here a while back. Worth a quick read for newbies (start from this post and work your way down):

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=48&Number=3428691&Searchpage=1&Main=168894&Words=Collector%2BA+Nexus&topic=0&Search=true#Post3428691

 

I can't believe I just reread that whole thing. Man, I'm one talkative yenta! I read that stuff and it's like someone else wrote it.

 

 

[westform]

I've had folks shop around my art, that I was in the process of offering to them. I'm guessing to find out about the prospects of flipping it... but I don't think they pretended to own it.

 

But, what I'm talking about is two examples that jump out in my memory when I was offered art that the offerer didn't own, they darn well made it sound like they did. In one case, I was able to root around through my network and find out who actually owned the art. In the other case, I was offered a piece of art and then out of the blue, the actual owner offered it to me too. He was way underground but must have gotten my name from a friend who knew what I collected. Anyway, after I busted the culprit, there was more of a shrug and a wink that anything else such as a humble apology. I guess I just sucked it up. Yes, it sucked, but I've had worse happen to me; and at that point nothing suprised me...

 

There was a time when that kind of behavior would sour me on the piece of art. And, cause me to want to dump it or pass on it if I hadn't made a move yet. I try to be a little more focused on the art now and forget the deal. It makes it much easier to enjoy the art....

 

I have had this happen to me more than once...

 

Sorry to hear about that, Dan.

 

So did someone offer to sell you pages that they did not actually own? Or did someone shop around your original art (pretending to own them) without your authorization?

 

In either case, that is pretty scummy.

 

 

 

[Comicduck-migration]

 

 

always wanted to buy some OA but my biggest fear being a novice is overpaying.