Are "acid-free" backing boards truly acid-free? Time to pH test & find out! 13 13

[ImageMask]

What worries me most of all is that BCW does not seem to understand how an alkaline reserve actually works...

Your understanding of biochemistry and cause/effect is about as deep as your understanding of pH buffers.

It blows my mind that somebody who's supposedly a representative of a company that manufactures comic book supplies could be so ignorant of the science behind the very items they sell.

We have now been told by three different members of this community that we do not understand how an alkaline reserve works, yet none have taken the time to explain it in detail. We stand by our statement that it is basic chemistry. As vacantpassenger pointed out, the calcium carbonate acts as a Lewis base. If anyone can explain how an alkaline reserve works in greater detail, please do so.

 

 

Wow, should have read the entire thread.

 

Did you just say

"We have now been told by three different members of this community that we do not understand how an alkaline reserve works, yet none have taken the time to explain it in detail."

 

I'll explain it. Do you have room in the budget?

If anyone can explain how an alkaline reserve works in greater detail, please do so

 

Oh. Why you asking us? Ask your chemist. Ask him to post.

 

it is basic chemistry

 

well it is.

 

and as far as biochem goes well it is biochem. it is another animal, pH,buffers and all that.

[ImageMask]

 

- Test were performed with a standard pHydrion pH pencil with distilled water.

 

pH of totally pure water = 7.............dependent on temp. Pure water pH, the distilled you used, is easily changed as it has almost no buffer capacity. CO2 in the air bonds with the distilled water so pH is changed. Possibly, with inside air,

into the acidic 5 range. The dye in the pHydrion pH pencil is acid/base and is enough to alter the results of pure water.

 

Just say'n it's not that easy.

 

Fancy words and numbers!

 

It is what it is. Nothing else required.

[ImageMask]

 

- Test were performed with a standard pHydrion pH pencil with distilled water.

 

pH of totally pure water = 7.............dependent on temp. Pure water pH, the distilled you used, is easily changed as it has almost no buffer capacity. CO2 in the air bonds with the distilled water so pH is changed. Possibly, with inside air,

into the acidic 5 range. The dye in the pHydrion pH pencil is acid/base and is enough to alter the results of pure water.

 

Just say'n it's not that easy.

 

No, it is that easy.

The point IS that the distilled water has almost no buffer capacity. Thus it does not appreciably affect the pH of the paper you put it on. In addition to the fact that the same source of distilled water was likely used on all of the samples.

 

 

Yup. no buffer capacity. nope, paper not a factor. yup same same source of water.

 

gee... what reagent is on that paper to measure the pH? was it an acid? a base?well it's pH. maybe both. Wonder what the air temp was. the altitude, o2 concentration...................

 

oh it's the paper parchment or USA today?

 

[namisgr]

[BCW Supplies]

BCW Supplies: Thanks for contributing to the conversation. I have a few questions, please:

 

Are your boards lingin free?

Are your boards P.A.T. certified?

Do your boards contain Alpha Cellulose wood pulp?

Do your boards contain any recycled product?

Do your boards contain any optical brighteners?

 

Thank you again,

Eggman

Our boards are not totally lignin free. Lignin is almost entirely removed during the bleaching process, but a small amount of lignin remains.

Our boards are not P.A.T. Certified.

No. Alpha cellulose is contained in board that is made using an alkaline process. As the name implies, Solid bleached sulphate (SBS) is made using a sulfate process.

No. SBS is said to be a virgin fiber grade of paperboard.

No. Our board is food grade SBS and FDA regulations prohibit the use of optical brighteners.

[BCW Supplies]

How? The buffer.

 

Here's a simple analogy to help you understand.

 

1. Let's take 3 solutions all at pH 7.0: (i) distilled water (which has no buffer); (ii) 0.01% Tris-Hydrochloride (a chemical buffer at a relatively low concentration dissolved in water); and (iii) 10% Tris-Hydrochloride (a chemical buffer at a relatively high concentration dissolved in water).

 

2. Let's add a drop of vinegar (5% acetic acid) to each and measure the pH.

 

3. Result? The water, which is unbuffered, will drop to the very low, highly acidic pH of the vinegar.

The weak buffer will drop below pH 7.0, but not to nearly the same degree as the water.

The strong buffer will maintain very close to pH 7.0.

 

4. The lesson? The stronger the buffer, the less the pH changes by the addition of an acid or a base.

Let's modify this this example so that it is relative to the boards in question since they both have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate.

 

1. Let's take 2 solutions, both at a pH of 7.0: (i) 10% Tris-Hydrochloride. (ii) 10% Tris-Hydrochloride.

 

2. Let's add a drop of vinegar (5% acetic acid) to each and measure the pH.

 

3. Result? Both buffers will maintain very close to pH 7.0.

 

4. The lesson? Equal buffers will yield equal results.

 

The point that we are trying to make with the example above is that namisgr does not explain how an alkaline reserve works, nor does he explain how boards that are both buffered with 3% calcium carbonate can show dramatically different results after 2 years of use.

[BCW Supplies]

vacantpassenger you are missing the forest for the trees. The coating is not absorbing the acid from the comic it is absorbing the acid from the board!

If this statement were true then solid bleached sulfate boards would turn yellow while they are still sealed in the package.

If this statement were NOT true then it would defy the laws of chemistry.

As Mr. Blackburn pointed out, the SBS sheet is stabilized. We will add to that statement by saying a coating of calcium carbonate buffer is then applied which is 3% of the total board by weight.

 

[BCW Supplies]

Are you Dana Kellum?

I have been told that I am much better looking than he is.

[BCW Supplies]

No, that is not an industry accepted definition.

The coating is a COATING.

Please post the "industry accepted definition" that you refer to.

 

Any paper labeled as "buffered", should not have any single layer which is acidic (let alone 97% of the board).

Your boards are NOT buffered.

There is a reason why all of the other manufacturers of coated SBS boards do not claim that their board is buffered.

If BCW Comic Boards are not buffered then how would you explain an alkaline reserve of 4.36%?

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

We are referring to a post that was made on this very forum regarding testing that was conducted in August of 2006. And, we are offering the same board today as we did then. Admittedly, the data is dated, but the technology behind the manufacture of SBS hasn't changed in decades.

[Annihilus]

Are you Dana Kellum?

I have been told that I am much better looking than he is.

 

at least you have a sense of humor.

 

Interesting discussion here. No idea where it'll end up, but interesting all the same.

[mschmidt]

No, that is not an industry accepted definition.

The coating is a COATING.

Please post the "industry accepted definition" that you refer to.

 

Any paper labeled as "buffered", should not have any single layer which is acidic (let alone 97% of the board).

Your boards are NOT buffered.

There is a reason why all of the other manufacturers of coated SBS boards do not claim that their board is buffered.

If BCW Comic Boards are not buffered then how would you explain an alkaline reserve of 4.36%?

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

We are referring to a post that was made on this very forum regarding testing that was conducted in August of 2006. And, we are offering the same board today as we did then. Admittedly, the data is dated, but the technology behind the manufacture of SBS hasn't changed in decades.

 

It's flat-out insulting that you keep on trying to pretend that a BCW backing board is comparable to an E Gerber backing board.

 

Your board is not buffered.

 

Your board has a thin coating of calcium carbonate on just one side.

 

The core of your board is SBS which does not have a "4.36% alkaline reserve".

 

I have no trouble believing that the coating (which, again, is only present on one side of your board) has an alkaline reserve, though - but, again, again, and again, that's just the coating, not the entire board.

 

In contrast, an E Gerber backing board has a 3% calcium carbonate buffer throughout the entire board.

[mschmidt]

We should point out that Bill Cole's Thin X-Tenders are 9 mil in thickness. Do you recommend that collectors use this product? We can't imagine that 1/1,000 of an inch makes much difference.

 

Bill Cole's Thin X-Tenders are 24 mil acid-free & archival-safe backing boards.

 

They're no different than the E Gerber half-backs, and are meant to be placed behind the book - not inside it.

 

So, yes, I'd gladly recommend this product - the Gerber half-backs are cheaper, though :thumbsup:

 

(If you're actually referring to the Life-X-Tenders Plus - which are 9 mil sheets of copper which are bound to plastic & then bonded onto a sheet of archival-safe paper, no, I would never recommend putting anything thicker than a piece of micro-chamber paper inside a book.

 

Unlike your BCW Extenders, however, the Life-X-Tenders Plus actually do what they claim they'll do - namely neutralize acids and prevent hydrolysis from occurring as the paper ages).

[InvstmntComcSuply]

Let's modify this this example so that it is relative to the boards in question since they both have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate.

 

1. Let's take 2 solutions, both at a pH of 7.0: (i) 10% Tris-Hydrochloride. (ii) 10% Tris-Hydrochloride.

 

2. Let's add a drop of vinegar (5% acetic acid) to each and measure the pH.

 

3. Result? Both buffers will maintain very close to pH 7.0.

 

4. The lesson? Equal buffers will yield equal results.

 

The point that we are trying to make with the example above is that namisgr does not explain how an alkaline reserve works, nor does he explain how boards that are both buffered with 3% calcium carbonate can show dramatically different results after 2 years of use.

 

You probably don't realize this, but you just proved that the BCW claim that their boards are buffered with 3% calcium carbonate is false.

 

I have been waiting to hear this as it is perfectly clear from Mikes test that your "independent test results" are completely bogus just like the majority if the "information" you have brought to the table.

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

If BCW Comic Boards are not buffered then how would you explain an alkaline reserve of 4.36%?

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

We are referring to a post that was made on this very forum regarding testing that was conducted in August of 2006. And, we are offering the same board today as we did then. Admittedly, the data is dated, but the technology behind the manufacture of SBS hasn't changed in decades.

 

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

 

Hi Buddy

 

Our product

 

. Prevents yellowing

. Prevents acids, mold, & mildew

. Reacts to corrosive gases

 

 

According to the Royal Art Salon

 

"Bienfang Acid Free Board

This specialty Board is totally acid-free. This product features facing

paper with a ph between 7.7 and 8.5. It's also made with a calcium carbonate

buffer that provides many years of protection against pollutants that cause

paper to become weak, brittle or yellow with age."

 

Our Extenders are coated with calcium carbonate on both sides. I have our

products tested when they arrive here from the mills. I run three test

"Elmendorf tear test", a hot extraction pH test, and an Alkaline Reserve

Test. At the lab the samples are conditioned to standard TAPPI temperature

of 73 F and 50% relative humidity. During the last test done in Aug, 2006

we tested Our Standard Board (Current and Silver), Extenders (Silver), and a

competitive board from the major distributor of current comic books boards.

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

Competitive Board 7.75 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

Competitive Board 3.69 %

 

Alkaline reserve. Nearly all alkaline paper contains calcium carbonate as a

filler. The average paper contains at least 2% and occasionally as much as

30% filler by weight. The standard requires only 2%. This calcium carbonate,

an alkaline reserve, keeps the pH of paper and board from declining as time

goes on. Even alkaline papers will eventually become acidic, without an

alkaline reserve.

 

Ours cost $3.40 for 200 theirs $186.00 for 200...Gee maybe I should raise my

price. I would test some else board but they are to expensive.

 

Thanks

 

Dana Kellum

Manager Internet Sales

 

This is the same Dana Kellum that copies and pastes his product information from numerous other websites all the while implying that BCW is using that product and meeting the highest archival standards when in fact he is simply quoting the information from other companies products.

The Bienfang Acid Free Board information is copied verbatim from Artsupply.com

The paragraph starting with "Alkaline reserve" is taken verbatim from The cool conservation website

 

The elmendorf tear test, hot extraction pH test, and alkaline reserve test could be taken from a number of Tappi websites.

 

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

 

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

 

Besides the FACT that the so called "independent testing" completely disagrees with the data in Mikes Study which you do not dispute.

 

 

[namisgr]

If BCW Comic Boards are not buffered then how would you explain an alkaline reserve of 4.36%?

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

We are referring to a post that was made on this very forum regarding testing that was conducted in August of 2006. And, we are offering the same board today as we did then. Admittedly, the data is dated, but the technology behind the manufacture of SBS hasn't changed in decades.

 

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

 

Hi Buddy

 

Our product

 

. Prevents yellowing

. Prevents acids, mold, & mildew

. Reacts to corrosive gases

 

 

According to the Royal Art Salon

 

"Bienfang Acid Free Board

This specialty Board is totally acid-free. This product features facing

paper with a ph between 7.7 and 8.5. It's also made with a calcium carbonate

buffer that provides many years of protection against pollutants that cause

paper to become weak, brittle or yellow with age."

 

Our Extenders are coated with calcium carbonate on both sides. I have our

products tested when they arrive here from the mills. I run three test

"Elmendorf tear test", a hot extraction pH test, and an Alkaline Reserve

Test. At the lab the samples are conditioned to standard TAPPI temperature

of 73 F and 50% relative humidity. During the last test done in Aug, 2006

we tested Our Standard Board (Current and Silver), Extenders (Silver), and a

competitive board from the major distributor of current comic books boards.

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

Competitive Board 7.75 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

Competitive Board 3.69 %

 

Alkaline reserve. Nearly all alkaline paper contains calcium carbonate as a

filler. The average paper contains at least 2% and occasionally as much as

30% filler by weight. The standard requires only 2%. This calcium carbonate,

an alkaline reserve, keeps the pH of paper and board from declining as time

goes on. Even alkaline papers will eventually become acidic, without an

alkaline reserve.

 

Ours cost $3.40 for 200 theirs $186.00 for 200...Gee maybe I should raise my

price. I would test some else board but they are to expensive.

 

Thanks

 

Dana Kellum

Manager Internet Sales

 

This is the same Dana Kellum that copies and pastes his product information from numerous other websites all the while implying that BCW is using that product and meeting the highest archival standards when in fact he is simply quoting the information from other companies products.

The Bienfang Acid Free Board information is copied verbatim from Artsupply.com

The paragraph starting with "Alkaline reserve" is taken verbatim from The cool conservation website

 

The elmendorf tear test, hot extraction pH test, and alkaline reserve test could be taken from a number of Tappi websites.

 

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

 

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

 

Besides the FACT that the so called "independent testing" completely disagrees with the data in Mikes Study which you do not dispute.

 

 

Ownage.

[Green]

If BCW Comic Boards are not buffered then how would you explain an alkaline reserve of 4.36%?

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

We are referring to a post that was made on this very forum regarding testing that was conducted in August of 2006. And, we are offering the same board today as we did then. Admittedly, the data is dated, but the technology behind the manufacture of SBS hasn't changed in decades.

 

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

 

Hi Buddy

 

Our product

 

. Prevents yellowing

. Prevents acids, mold, & mildew

. Reacts to corrosive gases

 

 

According to the Royal Art Salon

 

"Bienfang Acid Free Board

This specialty Board is totally acid-free. This product features facing

paper with a ph between 7.7 and 8.5. It's also made with a calcium carbonate

buffer that provides many years of protection against pollutants that cause

paper to become weak, brittle or yellow with age."

 

Our Extenders are coated with calcium carbonate on both sides. I have our

products tested when they arrive here from the mills. I run three test

"Elmendorf tear test", a hot extraction pH test, and an Alkaline Reserve

Test. At the lab the samples are conditioned to standard TAPPI temperature

of 73 F and 50% relative humidity. During the last test done in Aug, 2006

we tested Our Standard Board (Current and Silver), Extenders (Silver), and a

competitive board from the major distributor of current comic books boards.

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

Competitive Board 7.75 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

Competitive Board 3.69 %

 

Alkaline reserve. Nearly all alkaline paper contains calcium carbonate as a

filler. The average paper contains at least 2% and occasionally as much as

30% filler by weight. The standard requires only 2%. This calcium carbonate,

an alkaline reserve, keeps the pH of paper and board from declining as time

goes on. Even alkaline papers will eventually become acidic, without an

alkaline reserve.

 

Ours cost $3.40 for 200 theirs $186.00 for 200...Gee maybe I should raise my

price. I would test some else board but they are to expensive.

 

Thanks

 

Dana Kellum

Manager Internet Sales

 

This is the same Dana Kellum that copies and pastes his product information from numerous other websites all the while implying that BCW is using that product and meeting the highest archival standards when in fact he is simply quoting the information from other companies products.

The Bienfang Acid Free Board information is copied verbatim from Artsupply.com

The paragraph starting with "Alkaline reserve" is taken verbatim from The cool conservation website

 

The elmendorf tear test, hot extraction pH test, and alkaline reserve test could be taken from a number of Tappi websites.

 

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

 

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

 

Besides the FACT that the so called "independent testing" completely disagrees with the data in Mikes Study which you do not dispute.

 

 

Ownage.

I freakin love it.

 

I stay sportin' played Jordan's before Jordan

Verses tight, hooks harder than Ken Norton

Musically touching you

Truthfully I abuse beats better call BCW

 

[BCW Supplies]

(If you're actually referring to the Life-X-Tenders Plus - which are 9 mil sheets of copper which are bound to plastic & then bonded onto a sheet of archival-safe paper, no, I would never recommend putting anything thicker than a piece of micro-chamber paper inside a book.

Thank you for the clarification. We were referring to the Life-X-Tenders Plus. While we were doing some research on Archival Mat Board we came across this article from the folks at True Art Information. They said;

 

The most desirable board is one that does not age, remains at a pH of 7, is totally inert, is iron- and copper-free, is inedible to insects, remains free of mold and mildew, does not condense moisture, yet is absorbent.

Here's a link for your reference: http://www.trueart.info/archival_boards.htm

 

It makes sense if you think about it. What happens when the copper is oxidizing? We found this article on wikipedia interesting;

 

Copper forms a rich variety of compounds with oxidation states +1 and +2, which are often called cuprous and cupric, respectively. It does not react with water, but it slowly reacts with atmospheric oxygen forming a layer of brown-black copper oxide. In contrast to the oxidation of iron by wet air, this oxide layer stops the further, bulk corrosion. A green layer of verdigris (copper carbonate) can often be seen on old copper constructions, such as the Statue of Liberty, the largest copper statue in the world build using repoussé and chasing. Hydrogen sulfides and sulfides react with copper to form various copper sulfides on the surface. In the latter case, the copper corrodes, as is seen when copper is exposed to air containing sulfur compounds. Oxygen-containing ammonia solutions give water-soluble complexes with copper, as do oxygen and hydrochloric acid to form copper chlorides and acidified hydrogen peroxide to form copper(II) salts. Copper(II) chloride and copper comproportionate to form copper(I) chloride.

Here's a link to this article for your reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper

[BCW Supplies]

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

Mr. Kellum did not claim to be a "technical expert". If you read the e-mail again you will note that he said he was the Manager of Internet Sales.

 

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

Again, if you read the e-mail more closely you will note that Mr. Kellum is making a comparison for our friend ComicDoc. And, he most definitely attributes the information on Bienfang Acid Free Board to the Royal Art Salon (with quotation marks). You're right about one thing, though; you can find this information, almost verbatim, on artsupply.com. Of course, you can also find it at foamcoreheaven.com, mediaforprinting.com, chicagoairbrushsupply.com, thefind.com and villagesupplies.net.

 

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

When faced with evidence that clearly contradicts your opinion you simply deny it's validity. Otherwise, you might be compelled to explain how a board that you claim does not have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate can have an alkaline reserve of 4.36%.

[BCW Supplies]

Ownage.

I believe that your claim of "Ownage" is a little premature. We're just getting warmed up.

[namisgr]

Ownage.

I believe that your claim of "Ownage" is a little premature. We're just getting warmed up.

Once you claimed that the Gerber fullback was behaving "inert" by not changing pH (when in fact it was behaving like the strong buffering board it is touted to be), you lost any and all credibility.