Are "acid-free" backing boards truly acid-free? Time to pH test & find out! 13 13

[BCW Supplies]

Archival Mat Board is typically inert, and it has yet to be proven that the E. Gerber board is actually buffering. Even E. Gerber doesn't make the claim that their full-backs and half-backs absorb any residual acid. What is most telling is that grinin simply claims that the data that we presented is fabricated. It should be fairly obvious to anyone reading along that it wouldn't matter what we presented. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence absolute denial is the tactic.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

You are referring to this post by Comic Doc and an email he received from BCW's "technical expert and Manager of Internet Sales" Dana Kellum

Mr. Kellum did not claim to be a "technical expert". If you read the e-mail again you will note that he said he was the Manager of Internet Sales.

 

Dana should be very familiar to you, as you also have a habit of copying and pasting semi technical information without attribute.

Again, if you read the e-mail more closely you will note that Mr. Kellum is making a comparison for our friend ComicDoc. And, he most definitely attributes the information on Bienfang Acid Free Board to the Royal Art Salon (with quotation marks). You're right about one thing, though; you can find this information, almost verbatim, on artsupply.com. Of course, you can also find it at foamcoreheaven.com, mediaforprinting.com, chicagoairbrushsupply.com, thefind.com and villagesupplies.net.

 

 

 

Keep on Dancing!

 

For anyone who wants to read the whole post which I linked they can see that the conversation with Dana Kellum was specifically about the BCW boards. To try to convince those not willing to do the legwork that, you, er, Dana, out of the blue brought up a completely different manufacturer's board as a conversation piece, is indicative of the depths to which you will stoop to defend your point.

 

 

So, Dana, for a company and a person who is so at home making up information as you see fit, I find it highly likely that the "independent testing" and the 4.36% alkaline reserve (and pH for that matter), which you tout is also completely fabricated.

When faced with evidence that clearly contradicts your opinion you simply deny it's validity. Otherwise, you might be compelled to explain how a board that you claim does not have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate can have an alkaline reserve of 4.36%.

 

You need to rephrase that.

 

You have NO evidence that clearly contradicts my FACTS. I have not laid out opinions when talking about the science of Mikes Study in relation to the BCW boards and the buffered boards by Gerber. The data speaks for itself. The only one in denial is you.

 

I am going to repeat this, not because you don't understand it, because I know you do, but so that it does not get lost in the weight of your disinformation campaign:

 

Let me cut to the chase and summarize all of this for you.

 

Calcium Carbonate has a pH of about 9.5

 

The front of the NEW unused BCW board that is, according to BCW spray coated with Calcium Carbonate, tested out at a pH of 7 in Mikes Study.

 

This means that the coating that BCW applies has already lost almost ALL of its protective alkaline properties by the time it has been purchased.

 

Before it has even "seen" a comic book.

 

The super thin protective Coating on the BCW board will continue to get more and more acidic as it seeks equilibrium with the 24 point thick pH4 SBS board it is sprayed upon, even if a comic book is never placed upon it.

 

Now, go ahead with your dance. Ignore the Facts that I have laid out for you.

 

I think it is about time that we address this incredible disinformation campaign with the management team at BCW. I find it hard to believe that any company would risk their hard earned reputation on such flagrant misrepresentation of their product.

 

Can you give us the appropriate contact information Dana?

 

 

 

 

[BCW Supplies]

Hi Buddy

 

Our product

 

. Prevents yellowing

. Prevents acids, mold, & mildew

. Reacts to corrosive gases

 

 

According to the Royal Art Salon

 

"Bienfang Acid Free Board

This specialty Board is totally acid-free. This product features facing

paper with a ph between 7.7 and 8.5. It's also made with a calcium carbonate

buffer that provides many years of protection against pollutants that cause

paper to become weak, brittle or yellow with age."

 

Our Extenders are coated with calcium carbonate on both sides. I have our

products tested when they arrive here from the mills. I run three test

"Elmendorf tear test", a hot extraction pH test, and an Alkaline Reserve

Test. At the lab the samples are conditioned to standard TAPPI temperature

of 73 F and 50% relative humidity. During the last test done in Aug, 2006

we tested Our Standard Board (Current and Silver), Extenders (Silver), and a

competitive board from the major distributor of current comic books boards.

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

Competitive Board 7.75 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

Competitive Board 3.69 %

 

Alkaline reserve. Nearly all alkaline paper contains calcium carbonate as a

filler. The average paper contains at least 2% and occasionally as much as

30% filler by weight. The standard requires only 2%. This calcium carbonate,

an alkaline reserve, keeps the pH of paper and board from declining as time

goes on. Even alkaline papers will eventually become acidic, without an

alkaline reserve.

 

Ours cost $3.40 for 200 theirs $186.00 for 200...Gee maybe I should raise my

price. I would test some else board but they are to expensive.

 

Thanks

 

Dana Kellum

Manager Internet Sales

grinin, look at the e-mail again. In particular, the parts in bold. Dana clearly quoted the Royal Art Salon. And, just so that you are aware, the person posting on behalf of BCW Supplies is not Dana Kellum. Please feel free to give us a call. Better yet, come and visit. We will be happy to discuss this in person and show you what we do at BCW.

[Packback-migration]

And, just so that you are aware, the person posting on behalf of BCW Supplies is not Dana Kellum.

 

Then please make us aware of who it is.

[skypinkblu]

I'm not a scientist, I don't even play one on TV, but a number of the people who are posting here, ARE scientists, and I respect them and their opinions...

 

Frankly, I used to use BCW products for my cheaper books, used them for YEARS...I've just used the last of my supply, and after muddling through this thread, I will not be buying them again....

 

Even I, with no expertise in the subject can see where your statements are not making sense.

 

The bottom line is, if you are going to lose ME, I can't be the only one, and I'm not sure posting here is going to convert more people to your product.

 

Perhaps you should consider changing the product? :shrug:

[mikenyc]

Keep picking at the scab with these ridiculous posts. On principle, I will purposefully not buy your product.

 

 

[Green]

BCW boards are cheap. I thought everyone (even them) knew they sucked.

[mschmidt]

(If you're actually referring to the Life-X-Tenders Plus - which are 9 mil sheets of copper which are bound to plastic & then bonded onto a sheet of archival-safe paper, no, I would never recommend putting anything thicker than a piece of micro-chamber paper inside a book.

Thank you for the clarification. We were referring to the Life-X-Tenders Plus. While we were doing some research on Archival Mat Board we came across this article from the folks at True Art Information. They said;

 

The most desirable board is one that does not age, remains at a pH of 7, is totally inert, is iron- and copper-free, is inedible to insects, remains free of mold and mildew, does not condense moisture, yet is absorbent.

Here's a link for your reference: http://www.trueart.info/archival_boards.htm

 

It makes sense if you think about it. What happens when the copper is oxidizing? We found this article on wikipedia interesting;

 

Copper forms a rich variety of compounds with oxidation states +1 and +2, which are often called cuprous and cupric, respectively. It does not react with water, but it slowly reacts with atmospheric oxygen forming a layer of brown-black copper oxide. In contrast to the oxidation of iron by wet air, this oxide layer stops the further, bulk corrosion. A green layer of verdigris (copper carbonate) can often be seen on old copper constructions, such as the Statue of Liberty, the largest copper statue in the world build using repoussé and chasing. Hydrogen sulfides and sulfides react with copper to form various copper sulfides on the surface. In the latter case, the copper corrodes, as is seen when copper is exposed to air containing sulfur compounds. Oxygen-containing ammonia solutions give water-soluble complexes with copper, as do oxygen and hydrochloric acid to form copper chlorides and acidified hydrogen peroxide to form copper(II) salts. Copper(II) chloride and copper comproportionate to form copper(I) chloride.

Here's a link to this article for your reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper

 

You're kidding, right? :doh:

 

The Life-X-Tenders Plus are made up of highly reactive copper particles that are bonded into a polymer matrix - it's a variation of "Corrosion Intercept", a technology developed by Bell Labs that transforms the plastic into a protective barrier against corrosive gases, fungus and bacteria (and also reacts to neutralize any corrosive gasses it comes into contact with).

 

Some of the museums using this technology to protect their collections include the Guggenheim and the National Archives.

 

So, no, it's not the same type of copper used on the Statue of Liberty, and, no, it will never oxidize.

 

Here's a novel idea: Instead of trying to come up with more silly posts to try to discredit those of your competitors who actually manufacture products that are both truly acid-free & archival-safe, why don't you focus all that energy on removing the deceptive/misleading language from your website, your advertising material and your product packaging, and simply market your products for what they are? Non-archival-safe boards best suited for short-term use? I realize that doesn't sound quite as sexy as "Certified Acid Free - Independent Lab Tested", but, hey, at least it's true :thumbsup:

[InvstmntComcSuply]

BCW boards are cheap. I thought everyone (even them) knew they sucked.

 

This is another misconception (unless you only meant cheap as in sucked rather than as in inexpensive)

 

Silver Size Coated SBS Board Pricing from BCW

Pack(s) Pack Price

1 $9.00

5 $7.43

10 $5.46

 

Same Size 3% Buffered throughout Board Pricing from Gerber

Pack(s) Pack Price

1 $8.50

5 $7.20

20 $6.50

 

Thus the Gerber board is even LESS expensive than the BCW in the lower quantities.

There simply is NO reason to use such an inferior product when a far superior product is available at a similar price point

[The Amazing Chump]

This thread had already convinced me to convert my entire collection to Gerber FB's and Mylars (as soon as I come up with the scratch). Thank you for simultaneously reinforcing this opinion, and keeping this thread bumped to the first page...where it belongs.

[FFB]

 

[faster friends]

We should consider that the poster does NOT work for BCW and is just toying with everyone.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

And, just so that you are aware, the person posting on behalf of BCW Supplies is not Dana Kellum.

 

Then please make us aware of who it is.

 

[Green]

BCW boards are cheap. I thought everyone (even them) knew they sucked.

 

This is another misconception (unless you only meant cheap as in sucked rather than as in inexpensive)

 

Silver Size Coated SBS Board Pricing from BCW

Pack(s) Pack Price

1 $9.00

5 $7.43

10 $5.46

 

Same Size 3% Buffered throughout Board Pricing from Gerber

Pack(s) Pack Price

1 $8.50

5 $7.20

20 $6.50

 

Thus the Gerber board is even LESS expensive than the BCW in the lower quantities.

There simply is NO reason to use such an inferior product when a far superior product is available at a similar price point

Interesting. I get a similar product at my LCS for about half that. Guess i assumed these were comparible

[BCW Supplies]

Mike, thanks for the heads up. If Life-X-Tenders Plus truly work using Corrosion Intercept technology then it's a great product. And, it should work for more than the 10 years that Bill Cole states on his web site. Bill Cole's web site does state that Life-X-Tenders Plus use a technology developed by Bell Labs, but stops short of stating that it was Corrosion Intercept technology. Perhaps they didn't want to invite any competition.

 

One thing this thread has done is to prompt us to look beyond the obvious. We certainly understand how SBS board works to absorb the residual acid migrating from the pages of a comic book, but we didn't look any further than that. Please keep in mind that we have maintained all along that SBS boards are for short term storage of your comic books, and that we recommend that you change the bags and SBS boards every 3 to 5 years. We will continue offer SBS boards as a short term storage solution, and we agree that the web site and packaging could use some revision. It also appears that we could add a number of items to our line that are more effective for preserving comic books and other collectibles.

 

If you ever happen to be passing through Anderson, Indiana, please stop by and say hello. We'll even buy you lunch.

[Packback-migration]

Mike, thanks for the heads up. If Life-X-Tenders Plus truly work using Corrosion Intercept technology then it's a great product. And, it should work for more than the 10 years that Bill Cole states on his web site. Bill Cole's web site does state that Life-X-Tenders Plus use a technology developed by Bell Labs, but stops short of stating that it was Corrosion Intercept technology. Perhaps they didn't want to invite any competition.

 

One thing this thread has done is to prompt us to look beyond the obvious. We certainly understand how SBS board works to absorb the residual acid migrating from the pages of a comic book, but we didn't look any further than that. Please keep in mind that we have maintained all along that SBS boards are for short term storage of your comic books, and that we recommend that you change the bags and SBS boards every 3 to 5 years. We will continue offer SBS boards as a short term storage solution, and we agree that the web site and packaging could use some revision. It also appears that we could add a number of items to our line that are more effective for preserving comic books and other collectibles.

 

If you ever happen to be passing through Anderson, Indiana, please stop by and say hello. We'll even buy you lunch.

 

Great, I'll backpedal my bike to Anderson. Who should I ask for when I get there?

[BCW Supplies]

By the way, if you do happen to stop by, you can bring namisgr with you. He seems like a decent sort, but leave grinin at home.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

We certainly understand how SBS board works to absorb the residual acid migrating from the pages of a comic book

 

Mikes study showed the Brand spanking new BCW Solid Bleached Sulphate board has a pH of 4 with an already compromised super thin pH 7 coating. What scientific principle are you going to dispel today, that will have your board "absorb the residual acid migrating from the pages of a comic book"?

 

Cue the music. Start your

 

 

 

[BCW Supplies]

We received a call from Drew (grinin) today. Drew's reason for calling was to verify that it is indeed a representative of BCW that is posting on the forum as BCW Supplies. I had a chance to discuss the issues at hand with Drew at length and we were on the phone for an hour and a half. First, allow me to say that if Mike and namisgr do stop by for a visit they can bring Drew with them. During the conversation there were several things that Drew and I agreed on, and there were a few things that we agreed to disagree on until such time as we can determine how to prove the point one way or the other.

 

I believe that the first thing that we agreed on is that BCW Supplies should provide the name of the person posting on behalf of the company. My name is Ken O'Brien and I am the Director of Sales & Marketing for BCW Diversified, Inc. I am a twenty year veteran of the collectibles industry, and my background is in plastics. Another thing that we agreed on was that I should state clearly that we at BCW Diversified, Inc. are not conservationists. And finally, Drew and I agreed that we should work together for the benefit of everyone concerned rather than to continue to argue the various points contained within this thread.

 

During the conversation there were a few comments that I made which Drew urged me to address. His concerns were primarily regarding the comments that were either made or implied with respect to products offered by E. Gerber and Bill Cole. The first comment that Drew wanted me to address was the conclusion that I suggested regarding E. Gerber full-backs and half-backs not absorbing any residual acid because they are made of Archival Mat Board. That being said, there is no argument about the material that E. Gerber full-backs and half-backs are made from. Typically, Archival Mat Board is inert because collectors and conservationists do not want the board to react with the artifact in any way. However, E. Gerber half-backs and full-backs are buffered, and it is logical to assume that they absorb residual acid to some degree. I did actually correct myself on this particular point, but I believe Drew, and perhaps others following along, may have missed it. Neither one of us are sure to what degree the E. Gerber Archival Mat Boards absorb the residual acid that migrates from a comic book, but we have agreed that we should work together to determine what testing methods should be used to demonstrate the degree to which E. Gerber Archival Mat Boards absorb acid. Another of Drew's points of contention was the implication that Bill Cole's Life-X-Tenders Plus may cause damage to comic books because they contain copper which is typically undesirable in conservation. However, I did address this when Mike pointed out that Bill Cole's Life-X-Tenders Plus utilize Corrosion Intercept technology.

 

One of the points that we discussed is my conclusion, based on the data in Mike's study, that the acid from the SBS board does not migrate to the comic book. This conclusion is based on the fact that the pH level of the uncoated side of the new BCW Comic Backing Board was unchanged after two years of use. Further, that my conclusion is supported by Mr. Blackburn's statement that "a stabilized acid base process sheet of paper will not absorb any significant level of alkaline content from the coating." Drew's contention is that there is a change in the pH level of the uncoated side of the used BCW Comic Backing Board but that it is not detectable with a pHydrion pencil. In addition, Drew contends that that the SBS board does not absorb any significant level of residual acid from a comic book because most of the calcium carbonate coating has been saturated by the board itself. My response was that, if he were correct, the SBS board would turn yellow while still sealed in the package. To support his position, Drew stated that the pH level of calcium carbonate is 9.5 to 9.75, and that the pH level of the coated surface of the BCW Comic Backing Board was 7.0. His reasoning was that if the calcium carbonate didn't absorb some of the acid from the SBS board then he would expect the coated surface to also be at the 9.5 to 9.75 level. In all fairness, Drew was going from memory and he was fairly close. Upon checking I found that calcium carbonate has a pH level of 9.0. However, during our discussion about the nature of the coating on the SBS board (which I will address in a moment), Drew stated that he didn't believe that the coating was comprised of pure calcium carbonate. If he is correct, that might explain why the pH level of the coated board is 7.0 (as indicated by the data presented in Mike's study) rather than pH 9.0.

 

With regard to the coating, both Drew and Mike have stated in this thread that the coating is not the buffer. I have maintained all along that the coating is the buffer. Drew and Mike's assertion is that the coating may be buffered, but the coating is not the buffer. Further, Drew commented that my statement was "not an industry accepted definition." However, during my conversation with Drew on the phone today I explained that my reference comes from the Guidelines for Information About Preservation Products that is published by the National Information Standards Institution. In the glossary they state;

 

alkaline reserve. The presence in paper of an alkaline earth salt that can neutralize acids and thereby prevent acid reactions that degrade paper, usually 2 to 3% (3 to 5% is also common) precipitated calcium or magnesium carbonate by weight of paper. This reserve absorbs and neutralizes acids as they are introduced and remains effective as long as unreacted alkaline salts are present. (7)

buffer. See alkaline reserve.

Here's a link so that you may all download your own copy of the Guidelines for Information About Preservation Products; http://www.niso.org/apps/group_public/download.php/6512/Guidelines%20for%20Information%20About%20Preservation%20Products.pdf

 

Here are the results from the independent laboratory where we had our boards tested;

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

The pH level of the BCW Current Comic Board is actually 8.01 (much closer to that of calcium carbonate than Mike's data indicates). And, the alkaline reserve, or buffer, is actually 4.36%.

 

And finally, what about the claim that the description of BCW Comic Backing Boards is misleading? Also taken from the glossary of the Guidelines for Information About Preservation Products;

 

acid free. In chemistry, materials that have a pH of 7.0 or higher. Sometimes used incorrectly as a synonym for alkaline. Acid-free materials may be produced from virtually any cellulose fiber source (cotton and wood, among others), if measures are taken during manufacture to eliminate active acid from the pulp. However free of acid a paper or board may be immediately after manufacture, over time the presence of residual chlorine from bleaching, aluminum sulfate from sizing, or pollutants in the atmosphere may lead to the formation of acid unless an alkaline substance is added to the paper or board. (1)

At the conclusion of our conversation I expressed to Drew that what was most concerning to me was that he claimed that our test data was fabricated. I explained that if we are to work together to determine the truth of the matter we must develop a relationship based on trust. Without the element of trust that we are working on a common goal I could post the results of the lab tests for all to download only to be accused of doctoring the paperwork and we would be right back to arguing which would not benefit anyone.

 

I truly believe that by the end of the conversation Drew understood that we are not here to mislead anyone. We are here for the same reason that he an Mike are here; to determine, beyond any doubt, the truth about SBS as it relates to comic backing boards. And, that we each believe in the conclusions that we have drawn from the data that Mike has presented. And further, that we need to work together to determine what tests are required to prove one hypothesis or the other for the benefit of everyone concerned.

[mschmidt]

Hi Ken,

 

Good to hear you had a constructive discussion with Drew - he's one of the most knowledgeable people around here when it comes to conservation products.

 

A couple of points from my side ...

 

1) In regards to the coated vs buffered discussion, I'd say that the "Guidelines for Information About Preservation Products" you quoted above support the position we've had all along - that your boards are coated, not buffered. This is the key quote:

 

"alkaline reserve. The presence in paper of an alkaline earth salt"

 

Your boards are made from SBS and are not imbued with an alkaline reserve - the alkaline reserve is merely a coating that's added to one side of the board at a later stage (and which does not permeate the board). The Gerber board, however, is infused throughout with the alkaline reserve - it has the "presence [...] of an alkaline earth salt" that yours doesn't.

 

2) As for the tests you've done, I honestly don't see how they contradict the rough findings displayed in this thread.

 

According to your results, the hot extraction test showed a pH of around 8.00 for the BCW current board - which, in industry parlance, is known as being "acid-free at time of manufacture".

 

However, I would gladly bet money that if you did a hot extraction test on a board from the same batch a couple of months after manufacture you'd see a drop in the pH value - which, in turn, would prove what we've said all along about the calcium carbonate coating being absorbed by the board.

 

The fact that the test showed a 4.36% alkaline reserve is nice, but, again, this alkaline reserve isn't spread throughout the board ... unlike the 3% buffer in the Gerber board, your alkaline reserve is concentrated on a much smaller area, on just one side of the board.

 

3) Lastly ... as one side of your board is clearly acidic, I still don't see how you can call your boards "acid-free" :shrug: