Are "acid-free" backing boards truly acid-free? Time to pH test & find out! 13 13

[Snake Eyes]

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

 

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

 

Thanks for filling in the blanks and responding to my post. Your taking the time to provide so much info is defintiely appreciated. I am thinking about switching over to Gerbers for my keeper books...it would be a pricey proposition but definitely considering it (thumbs u

[mikenyc]

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

 

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

 

Thanks for filling in the blanks and responding to my post. Your taking the time to provide so much info is defintiely appreciated. I am thinking about switching over to Gerbers for my keeper books...it would be a pricey proposition but definitely considering it (thumbs u

 

With all the drek you buy Heath, the Gerbers would be more valuable than the books!

[Snake Eyes]

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

 

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

 

Thanks for filling in the blanks and responding to my post. Your taking the time to provide so much info is defintiely appreciated. I am thinking about switching over to Gerbers for my keeper books...it would be a pricey proposition but definitely considering it (thumbs u

 

With all the drek you buy Heath, the Gerbers would be more valuable than the books!

 

ouch baby, very ouch

[mikenyc]

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

 

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

 

Thanks for filling in the blanks and responding to my post. Your taking the time to provide so much info is defintiely appreciated. I am thinking about switching over to Gerbers for my keeper books...it would be a pricey proposition but definitely considering it (thumbs u

 

With all the drek you buy Heath, the Gerbers would be more valuable than the books!

 

ouch baby, very ouch

 

I'm just looking for negative attention.

[TheLiamSturgess]

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

 

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

 

Thanks for filling in the blanks and responding to my post. Your taking the time to provide so much info is defintiely appreciated. I am thinking about switching over to Gerbers for my keeper books...it would be a pricey proposition but definitely considering it (thumbs u

 

With all the drek you buy Heath, the Gerbers would be more valuable than the books!

 

ouch baby, very ouch

 

I'm just looking for negative attention.

 

How self-aware of you!

[ImageMask]

We specialize in archival storage products and are a distributor for Gerber. The Gerber Mylites2 are a great complement to our pre-cut comic sized Microchamber interleaving paper (the .0025" thick, cotton version that CGC uses, rather than the thicker pulp based).

 

Halfbacks and Fullbacks make up less than 2% of our sales as we are handicapped by having to ship them twice, since Gerber doesn't drop ship. We regularly recommend customers buy larger board quantities direct from the factory, although we are not compensated for those sales.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BCW Supplies]

As promised, I asked Dana Kellum about the e-mail to ComicDoc. He said that he did not state that BCW Comic Extenders would prevent mold & mildew or refer to the Royal Art Salon (I assumed he did from ComicDoc's post, and that he was making a comparison between our product and Bienfang Acid Free Board). Dana stated that his e-mail was the part that reads;

 

Our Extenders are coated with calcium carbonate on both sides. I have our

products tested when they arrive here from the mills. I run three test

"Elmendorf tear test", a hot extraction pH test, and an Alkaline Reserve

Test. At the lab the samples are conditioned to standard TAPPI temperature

of 73 F and 50% relative humidity. During the last test done in Aug, 2006

we tested Our Standard Board (Current and Silver), Extenders (Silver), and a

competitive board from the major distributor of current comic books boards.

 

Acidity Alkalinity, Hot Extraction, TAPPI T-435 (pH)

BCW Silver Extender 8.35 pH

BCW Current Board 8.01 pH

Competitive Board 7.75 pH

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

Competitive Board 3.69 %

 

Alkaline reserve. Nearly all alkaline paper contains calcium carbonate as a

filler. The average paper contains at least 2% and occasionally as much as

30% filler by weight. The standard requires only 2%. This calcium carbonate,

an alkaline reserve, keeps the pH of paper and board from declining as time

goes on. Even alkaline papers will eventually become acidic, without an

alkaline reserve.

 

Ours cost $3.40 for 200 theirs $186.00 for 200...Gee maybe I should raise my

price. I would test some else board but they are to expensive.

ComicDoc, do you still happen to have the e-mail referenced above, and/or the subsequent e-mail where Mr. Kellum stated that he had put one in between each page of a book and corrected a mold / mildew problem? If so, please forward them to me at ken@bcwsupplies.com.

[BCW Supplies]

Yesterday I had a vendor in my office. His name is Jim Lallathin and as it turns out, he is a graduate of Miami University of Oxford and his degree is in Pulp and Paper Technology. I showed him Mike's study and explained that we have a difference of opinion regarding the conclusions that have been drawn from Mike's data. Specifically, about the differences between the E. Gerber Comic Backing Boards and BCW Comic Backing Boards. I explained to Mr. Lallathin that I had contacted E. Gerber and asked what type of board the Half-Backs and Full-Backs were made of, and I was told that it was Archival Mat Board. I happened to have samples of both E. Gerber Half-Backs and Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders in my office and Mr. Lallathin asked to see them. When I handed Mr. Lallathin the E. Gerber Half-Backs he immediately said "That's not Mat Board. That's VAT Board", and he went on to explain how it was made. As he was explaining the process he peeled the white coating off of the board and told me that the gray paper that is sandwiched in between the thin white paper coating is recycled paper, which is acidic. In fact, because it is recycled paper, there's no telling just how much acid is in it. Then, he went on to explain that the thin layer of bleached paper on either side had to have a high alkaline content because the recycled paper sandwiched in the middle is not stabilized. He also explained that because the board is made of recycled paper it is far less expensive than solid bleached sulfate. When we opened the package of Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders we found that they were exactly the same thing.

 

Now, I don't expect everyone here to take my word for it, so I have sent samples of the boards to the independent laboratory where we have our testing done and I'll share the results in this thread. Of course, some here might say that the samples I had tested weren't actually E. Gerber Half-Backs or Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders, so perhaps we can convince Mike to peel the white coating from an E. Gerber Half-Back and Bill Cole Thin-X-Tender, mark on it with his pHydrion pencil, and post pictures of them for us.

[lizards2]

I'd be interested in how you came to the conclusion that the interior is recycled paper, and not just unbleached paper.

 

[BCW Supplies]

Jim Lallathin is a 30 year veteran of the paper industry and he has a degree in Pulp and Paper Technology. I believe he knows what he is talking about. But, I'm going to have the board tested and provide the results. And, if it turns out that Mr. Lallathin is wrong I will post that, too. I realize that some folks here don't believe that I am interested in the truth, but I am. And, that's why I am spending so much time on this. It actually matters to me if we are providing a product that is not good for your books. That's why I have said repeatedly that if you use SBS board you want to change them out every 3 to 5 years. I have also said that MCP is the way to go, even though we don't offer it. I said that about MCP because, during my research, I have found that MCP has 200 times the capacity to absorb acid than SBS board.

 

I realize that many here believe that I am just trying to sell backing boards. But, please understand that we could easily add the same board to our line and the point would be moot. That isn't why I am investing my time.

[mschmidt]

Yesterday I had a vendor in my office. His name is Jim Lallathin and as it turns out, he is a graduate of Miami University of Oxford and his degree is in Pulp and Paper Technology. I showed him Mike's study and explained that we have a difference of opinion regarding the conclusions that have been drawn from Mike's data. Specifically, about the differences between the E. Gerber Comic Backing Boards and BCW Comic Backing Boards. I explained to Mr. Lallathin that I had contacted E. Gerber and asked what type of board the Half-Backs and Full-Backs were made of, and I was told that it was Archival Mat Board. I happened to have samples of both E. Gerber Half-Backs and Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders in my office and Mr. Lallathin asked to see them. When I handed Mr. Lallathin the E. Gerber Half-Backs he immediately said "That's not Mat Board. That's VAT Board", and he went on to explain how it was made. As he was explaining the process he peeled the white coating off of the board and told me that the gray paper that is sandwiched in between the thin white paper coating is recycled paper, which is acidic. In fact, because it is recycled paper, there's no telling just how much acid is in it. Then, he went on to explain that the thin layer of bleached paper on either side had to have a high alkaline content because the recycled paper sandwiched in the middle is not stabilized. He also explained that because the board is made of recycled paper it is far less expensive than solid bleached sulfate. When we opened the package of Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders we found that they were exactly the same thing.

 

Now, I don't expect everyone here to take my word for it, so I have sent samples of the boards to the independent laboratory where we have our testing done and I'll share the results in this thread. Of course, some here might say that the samples I had tested weren't actually E. Gerber Half-Backs or Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders, so perhaps we can convince Mike to peel the white coating from an E. Gerber Half-Back and Bill Cole Thin-X-Tender, mark on it with his pHydrion pencil, and post pictures of them for us.

 

Let me get this straight ... your hypothesis is now that Gerber are lying through their teeth when they claim that their board is "genuine acid-free, cellular fiber" which "meets strict U.S. Government standards for archival storage"? That the Gerber board does not have a "3% calcium carbonate buffer throughout", but is rather an acidic vat-lined board with merely an alkaline coating on both sides?

 

(Because you can't really have it both ways - for a board to be truly acid-free, it needs to have a chemically inert core and be buffered throughout with an alkaline solution. If it has an acidic core & an alkaline coating (like the BCW board), it just isn't acid-free.)

 

And your sole proof is some paper vendor who just happened to show up in your office, and who was able to accurately identify this based on looks alone?

 

If this is true, I'd venture a guess and say that the Library of Congress and the National Archives - both of which use the E Gerber products - will be rather miffed. And I'm sure some heads will roll seeing that both those institutions have insanely strict requirements for any archival products that they use, and all their vendors need to supply independent test results to back up any claims they make about their products.

 

If it isn't, I'd say that both E Gerber & Bill Cole would have a rather strong libel case against you & your company - as you're essentially saying that all the claims they've made about their backing boards are fraudulent.

 

[comicdonna]

Ouch!

[MrBedrock]

Yesterday I had a vendor in my office. His name is Jim Lallathin and as it turns out, he is a graduate of Miami University of Oxford and his degree is in Pulp and Paper Technology. I showed him Mike's study and explained that we have a difference of opinion regarding the conclusions that have been drawn from Mike's data. Specifically, about the differences between the E. Gerber Comic Backing Boards and BCW Comic Backing Boards. I explained to Mr. Lallathin that I had contacted E. Gerber and asked what type of board the Half-Backs and Full-Backs were made of, and I was told that it was Archival Mat Board. I happened to have samples of both E. Gerber Half-Backs and Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders in my office and Mr. Lallathin asked to see them. When I handed Mr. Lallathin the E. Gerber Half-Backs he immediately said "That's not Mat Board. That's VAT Board", and he went on to explain how it was made. As he was explaining the process he peeled the white coating off of the board and told me that the gray paper that is sandwiched in between the thin white paper coating is recycled paper, which is acidic. In fact, because it is recycled paper, there's no telling just how much acid is in it. Then, he went on to explain that the thin layer of bleached paper on either side had to have a high alkaline content because the recycled paper sandwiched in the middle is not stabilized. He also explained that because the board is made of recycled paper it is far less expensive than solid bleached sulfate. When we opened the package of Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders we found that they were exactly the same thing.

 

Now, I don't expect everyone here to take my word for it, so I have sent samples of the boards to the independent laboratory where we have our testing done and I'll share the results in this thread. Of course, some here might say that the samples I had tested weren't actually E. Gerber Half-Backs or Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders, so perhaps we can convince Mike to peel the white coating from an E. Gerber Half-Back and Bill Cole Thin-X-Tender, mark on it with his pHydrion pencil, and post pictures of them for us.

 

Let me get this straight ... your hypothesis is now that Gerber are lying through their teeth when they claim that their board is "genuine acid-free, cellular fiber" which "meets strict U.S. Government standards for archival storage"? That the Gerber board does not have a "3% calcium carbonate buffer throughout", but is rather an acidic vat-lined board with merely an alkaline coating on both sides?

 

(Because you can't really have it both ways - for a board to be truly acid-free, it needs to have a chemically inert core and be buffered throughout with an alkaline solution. If it has an acidic core & an alkaline coating (like the BCW board), it just isn't acid-free.)

 

And your sole proof is some paper vendor who just happened to show up in your office, and who was able to accurately identify this based on looks alone?

 

If this is true, I'd venture a guess and say that the Library of Congress and the National Archives - both of which use the E Gerber products - will be rather miffed. And I'm sure some heads will roll seeing that both those institutions have insanely strict requirements for any archival products that they use, and all their vendors need to supply independent test results to back up any claims they make about their products.

 

If it isn't, I'd say that both E Gerber & Bill Cole would have a rather strong libel case against you & your company - as you're essentially saying that all the claims they've made about their backing boards are fraudulent.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking.

That and "Can a company spokesman really be that stupid?"

[Aman619]

Or, he can't be that stupid, so maybe the settling conclusion that BCE is the only one selling something different than what they are marketing, isn't exactly true.

 

Wouldn't the library of congress most likely take Gerber Products at it's word that their products are advertised.. Like the rest of us do? Fo most of their stuff, and take special precautions with only their finest specimens?

 

My sense is that the archival products industry is rife with partial truths and that BCW can't be much worse than the rest , truly inert archival materials are expensive leading to cost cutting and misleading marketing. Welcome to business 101.

[MrBedrock]

Or, he can't be that stupid, so maybe the settling conclusion that BCE is the only one selling something different than what they are marketing, isn't exactly true.

 

Wouldn't the library of congress most likely take Gerber Products at it's word that their products are advertised.. Like the rest of us do? Fo most of their stuff, and take special precautions with only their finest specimens?

 

My sense is that the archival products industry is rife with partial truths and that BCW can't be much worse than the rest , truly inert archival materials are expensive leading to cost cutting and misleading marketing. Welcome to business 101.

I don't doubt any of that for a second.

But a company spokesman...for any company...would and should not make a public statement without first having the facts. Anything else is speculation and could cause more harm then good for the company. BCW's spokesman's statements and mudslinging are not helping his cause.

[lizards2]

Or, he can't be that stupid, so maybe the settling conclusion that BCE is the only one selling something different than what they are marketing, isn't exactly true.

 

Wouldn't the library of congress most likely take Gerber Products at it's word that their products are advertised.. Like the rest of us do? Fo most of their stuff, and take special precautions with only their finest specimens?

 

My sense is that the archival products industry is rife with partial truths and that BCW can't be much worse than the rest , truly inert archival materials are expensive leading to cost cutting and misleading marketing. Welcome to business 101.

I don't doubt any of that for a second.

But a company spokesman...for any company...would and should not make a public statement without first having the facts. Anything else is speculation and could cause more harm then good for the company. BCW's spokesman's statements and mudslinging are not helping his cause.

 

He has definitely helped Hotflips latest sale - their Gerber products are selling like hotcakes.

[mschmidt]

Or, he can't be that stupid, so maybe the settling conclusion that BCE is the only one selling something different than what they are marketing, isn't exactly true.

 

Wouldn't the library of congress most likely take Gerber Products at it's word that their products are advertised.. Like the rest of us do? Fo most of their stuff, and take special precautions with only their finest specimens?

 

My sense is that the archival products industry is rife with partial truths and that BCW can't be much worse than the rest , truly inert archival materials are expensive leading to cost cutting and misleading marketing. Welcome to business 101.

 

You're giving the BCW rep way too much credit here.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that you any archival product used by either the LoC or the National Archives is tested up the wazoo to ensure that it does what it's supposed to do - their goal is not to count pennes, but to ensure long-term preservation of anything they store (case in point: they spent $5 million building & designing the new display cases for the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights).

[thirdgreenham]

Or, he can't be that stupid, so maybe the settling conclusion that BCE is the only one selling something different than what they are marketing, isn't exactly true.

 

Wouldn't the library of congress most likely take Gerber Products at it's word that their products are advertised.. Like the rest of us do? Fo most of their stuff, and take special precautions with only their finest specimens?

 

My sense is that the archival products industry is rife with partial truths and that BCW can't be much worse than the rest , truly inert archival materials are expensive leading to cost cutting and misleading marketing. Welcome to business 101.

 

You're giving the BCW rep way too much credit here.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that you any archival product used by either the LoC or the National Archives is tested up the wazoo to ensure that it does what it's supposed to do - their goal is not to count pennes, but to ensure long-term preservation of anything they store (case in point: they spent $5 million building & designing the new display cases for the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights).

 

Well, you might as well do the test he's suggesting. I mean, you've done so much work so far, this is just a quick little test. Let's see the results you find. (thumbs u

 

Andy

[Aman619]

Or, he can't be that stupid, so maybe the settling conclusion that BCE is the only one selling something different than what they are marketing, isn't exactly true.

 

Wouldn't the library of congress most likely take Gerber Products at it's word that their products are advertised.. Like the rest of us do? Fo most of their stuff, and take special precautions with only their finest specimens?

 

My sense is that the archival products industry is rife with partial truths and that BCW can't be much worse than the rest , truly inert archival materials are expensive leading to cost cutting and misleading marketing. Welcome to business 101.

 

You're giving the BCW rep way too much credit here.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that you any archival product used by either the LoC or the National Archives is tested up the wazoo to ensure that it does what it's supposed to do - their goal is not to count pennes, but to ensure long-term preservation of anything they store (case in point: they spent $5 million building & designing the new display cases for the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights).

 

 

You guys know a heck of a lot more than I do about the chemistry etc in this matter. I'm reading the body language.

 

Also, I did take pains to separate the millions they spend on their most important documents in my post. But do they use the same "spend whatever it takes" approach with the rest of their collections? I'd think they'd see much of those supplies as a welcome chance to save some bucks with "over the counter" generic medicines. As it were.

[FFB]

Yesterday I had a vendor in my office. His name is Jim Lallathin and as it turns out, he is a graduate of Miami University of Oxford and his degree is in Pulp and Paper Technology. I showed him Mike's study and explained that we have a difference of opinion regarding the conclusions that have been drawn from Mike's data. Specifically, about the differences between the E. Gerber Comic Backing Boards and BCW Comic Backing Boards. I explained to Mr. Lallathin that I had contacted E. Gerber and asked what type of board the Half-Backs and Full-Backs were made of, and I was told that it was Archival Mat Board. I happened to have samples of both E. Gerber Half-Backs and Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders in my office and Mr. Lallathin asked to see them. When I handed Mr. Lallathin the E. Gerber Half-Backs he immediately said "That's not Mat Board. That's VAT Board", and he went on to explain how it was made. As he was explaining the process he peeled the white coating off of the board and told me that the gray paper that is sandwiched in between the thin white paper coating is recycled paper, which is acidic. In fact, because it is recycled paper, there's no telling just how much acid is in it. Then, he went on to explain that the thin layer of bleached paper on either side had to have a high alkaline content because the recycled paper sandwiched in the middle is not stabilized. He also explained that because the board is made of recycled paper it is far less expensive than solid bleached sulfate. When we opened the package of Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders we found that they were exactly the same thing.

 

Now, I don't expect everyone here to take my word for it, so I have sent samples of the boards to the independent laboratory where we have our testing done and I'll share the results in this thread. Of course, some here might say that the samples I had tested weren't actually E. Gerber Half-Backs or Bill Cole's Thin-X-Tenders, so perhaps we can convince Mike to peel the white coating from an E. Gerber Half-Back and Bill Cole Thin-X-Tender, mark on it with his pHydrion pencil, and post pictures of them for us.

 

Let me get this straight ... your hypothesis is now that Gerber are lying through their teeth when they claim that their board is "genuine acid-free, cellular fiber" which "meets strict U.S. Government standards for archival storage"? That the Gerber board does not have a "3% calcium carbonate buffer throughout", but is rather an acidic vat-lined board with merely an alkaline coating on both sides?

 

(Because you can't really have it both ways - for a board to be truly acid-free, it needs to have a chemically inert core and be buffered throughout with an alkaline solution. If it has an acidic core & an alkaline coating (like the BCW board), it just isn't acid-free.)

 

And your sole proof is some paper vendor who just happened to show up in your office, and who was able to accurately identify this based on looks alone?

 

If this is true, I'd venture a guess and say that the Library of Congress and the National Archives - both of which use the E Gerber products - will be rather miffed. And I'm sure some heads will roll seeing that both those institutions have insanely strict requirements for any archival products that they use, and all their vendors need to supply independent test results to back up any claims they make about their products.

 

If it isn't, I'd say that both E Gerber & Bill Cole would have a rather strong libel case against you & your company - as you're essentially saying that all the claims they've made about their backing boards are fraudulent.

 

 

That "paper vendor" is talking out of his heinie. The LoC extensively tests all of the products that it uses before it uses them. If it had an acidic core, we'd know it already.

 

And then my favorite line:

 

"recycled paper, which is acidic."