Are "acid-free" backing boards truly acid-free? Time to pH test & find out! 13 13

[FFB]

Where do you get the notion that "archival mat board" impregnated with 3% calcium carbonate won't absorb acid migrating from a comic? It will absolutely absorb and neutralize acids from a comic book.

According to Mike's study there was no change in the pH level of the E. Gerber boards at all. Therefore, either Mike's data is incorrect, or the E. Gerber board does not absorb any acid even after 2 years of use.

 

It is clear that you have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you wait until you get some of those paper experts on the phone before you post more incorrect information.

One of the industry professionals that we have contacted is a representative of E. Gerber. It was this representative who stated that E. Gerber full-backs and half-backs are made of Archival Mat Board. Further, the representative stated that E. Gerber makes no claim that their full-backs or half-backs will absorb the residual acid that migrates from the pages of a comic book. The only claim that they make is that it will not contribute to the deterioration of a comic book.

 

Wood pulp is naturally acidic but can be buffered with calcium carbonate to temporarily shift the pH balance to alkaline. However, it will return to being acidic and start to harm the your comic book in about five years. No matter how free of acid a paper or board may be immediately after its manufacture, over time the presence of residual chlorine from bleaching, aluminum sulfate from sizing, and pollutants in the atmosphere may lead to the formation of acid unless the paper or board has been buffered with an alkaline substance. As noted in Mike's study, both the E. Gerber and BCW boards have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate. Also noted in Mike's study is the fact that the 3% buffer of calcium carbonate is distributed throughout the board in the E. Gerber product, whereas the 3% buffer of calcium carbonate is concentrated in the form of a coating on the BCW product. Given that both products are made from wood pulp, how does the E. Gerber product absorb so much more residual acid that the change in the pH level is undetectable after 2 years of use?

 

Perhaps the statement by both E. Gerber and BCW that the E. Gerber board doesn't absorb any residual acid is technically incorrect. However, based on Mike's data, one could deduce that so little of the 3% buffer of calcium carbonate is in contact with the comic book that the change in the pH level of the surface of the E. Gerber board is virtually undetectable.

 

Please keep in mind that, as previously stated, we all have a common goal; to determine, beyond any reasonable doubt, the facts regarding the use of solid bleached sulfate for comic backing boards. It is not our intention to mislead our customers. We do not try to hide the fact that the board is solid bleached sulfate which is not suitable for long term storage of your comic books. This is why we recommend that you change your bags and boards every 3 to 5 years.

 

All this means is that, if it is even true, the E. Gerber "representative" you spoke to does not know what he or she is talking about. This would not surprise me. I called E. Gerber a few years ago to ask a question for one of the preservation threads I was posting in and found the E. Gerber customer service rep to be pretty ignorant about the products Gerber sells. I suppose that's why they work in customer service - because if they knew about paper science or chemistry, they'd be paper scientists or chemists.

[FFB]

Because, as EffEffBee said earlier, 3% of the total content of the Gerber board is calcium carbonate (and the rest of the board is an archival-safe mat board). The BCW board, on the other hand, is made from SBS and has merely a thin coating of calcium carbonate on just one side.

Both the E. Gerber board and the BCW board are 3% calcium carbonate by weight and both are made from wood pulp. If we were to perform TAPPI T 435 on both products we suspect that the result would be a pH level between 7 and 8 for both (which is a hypothesis your preliminary data supports). Assuming that we are correct, and the results come back as we expect, what would your conclusion be at that point?

 

What does it mean to say that the BCW Xtender is "coated" then? If it is "coated" with some kind of spray, then there is no way it is 3% calcium carbonate by weight.

 

Also, if these things are 10 mils thick, they should not be interleaved between the cover and interior, whether they're buffered, coated, or acidic time bombs. End of story.

[Bumble Kitty]

I had pizza for dinner tonight (I know, as I get older I shouldn't eat that stuff). If I wake up at 1 AM with heart burn, I'll head over to the bathroom and grab the Mylanta. I just hope it isn't manufactured by BCW Supplies, or I'll be hurting for several hours.

[BCW Supplies]

This horse doesn't want to drink, because it might cost him some business and make him look even dumber than he already does.

Perhaps now would be a good time to point out that we have not made a personal attack on any member of this forum. We only came to discuss the study that Mike has posted in a polite and professional manner. In return we have been subjected to a barrage of insults by certain members of this community.

 

All this means is that, if it is even true, the E. Gerber "representative" you spoke to does not know what he or she is talking about. This would not surprise me. I called E. Gerber a few years ago to ask a question for one of the preservation threads I was posting in and found the E. Gerber customer service rep to be pretty ignorant about the products Gerber sells. I suppose that's why they work in customer service - because if they knew about paper science or chemistry, they'd be paper scientists or chemists.

Is this the way manufacturer's representatives are treated here? Judging by your comment about employees of E. Gerber, a company who's products you obviously hold above our own, it is.

[BCW Supplies]

I had pizza for dinner tonight (I know, as I get older I shouldn't eat that stuff). If I wake up at 1 AM with heart burn, I'll head over to the bathroom and grab the Mylanta. I just hope it isn't manufactured by BCW Supplies, or I'll be hurting for several hours.

Actually, we recommend against the use of Mylanta because it contains Aluminum hydroxide and may contribute to Alzheimer's disease.

[BCW Supplies]

What does it mean to say that the BCW Xtender is "coated" then? If it is "coated" with some kind of spray, then there is no way it is 3% calcium carbonate by weight.

The proper name of the product is BCW Comic Extenders. They are also made of solid bleached sulfate board and they are coated with calcium carbonate. But, they are coated on both sides. They have an alkaline reserve of 10% and a pH of 8.35.

 

Also, if these things are 10 mils thick, they should not be interleaved between the cover and interior, whether they're buffered, coated, or acidic time bombs. End of story.

To date we have not received a complaint about staples popping through the paper as Mike suggests. If anyone has evidence to the contrary we would like to hear from you. We should point out that Bill Cole's Thin X-Tenders are 9 mil in thickness. Do you recommend that collectors use this product? We can't imagine that 1/1,000 of an inch makes much difference.

[gcstomp]

BCW has done an admirable job of staying cool under fire in what is a faceless mob, empowered by group rumblings. Numerous jabs, calls of "what is your name", thinly veiled insults "you could be the BCW janitor". I have no doubt if a name was provided there would be a detective job done and postings of 6th grade truancy back in 1974 from a google search would be produced in 8 minutes flat, further muddying the waters.

 

Note, Hotflips, a very well known and respected member of the boards has wisely stayed out of the fray, in what can only be called a no win situation. Ultra Pro, Miller, BCW, Hotflips all produce a similar product in the 100 board per pack coated board that sells cheap, and is used in the poly bags that are also sold cheap. These supplies house the comics that fill long boxes all over the country, until such time that the collection is sold off, if moderns then very likey for less than the initial investment in the supplies themselves.

 

EGerber produces a different product, which sells at a multiple of the the cost point of the CB's. The different product not surprisingly has different results in the pH test.

[BCW Supplies]

So for all we know you could be the janitor at BCW.

We prefer the term Sanitation Engineer.

[BCW Supplies]

I have no doubt if a name was provided there would be a detective job done and postings of 6th grade truancy back in 1974 from a google search would be produced in 8 minutes flat...

That is uncanny. I actually was in 6th grade in 1974. I don't recall being truant, though.

[ciorac]

So for all we know you could be the janitor at BCW.

We prefer the term Sanitation Engineer.

 

Nice retort (thumbs u

[FFB]

What does it mean to say that the BCW Xtender is "coated" then? If it is "coated" with some kind of spray, then there is no way it is 3% calcium carbonate by weight.

The proper name of the product is BCW Comic Extenders. They are also made of solid bleached sulfate board and they are coated with calcium carbonate. But, they are coated on both sides. They have an alkaline reserve of 10% and a pH of 8.35.

 

Also, if these things are 10 mils thick, they should not be interleaved between the cover and interior, whether they're buffered, coated, or acidic time bombs. End of story.

To date we have not received a complaint about staples popping through the paper as Mike suggests. If anyone has evidence to the contrary we would like to hear from you. We should point out that Bill Cole's Thin X-Tenders are 9 mil in thickness. Do you recommend that collectors use this product? We can't imagine that 1/1,000 of an inch makes much difference.

 

I don't think anything thicker than Microchamber paper should be interleaved because it could create a wrinkle in the cover stock if the book is stored in a snug mylar sleeve.

 

I don't advocate using any Bill Cole products. I don't disavow them either. I am a Gerber customer.

 

How does your Extender have a 10% alkaline reserve? Didn't you originally say it was "coated" on both sides with a "3% calcium carbonate" spray? What does your alkaline reserve consist of, if not the calcium carbonate spray? If it is the spray coating, then where is the 10% figure coming from? No way is your board 10% calcium carbonate by weight.

 

If you have bleached sulfate as the core of the board, it is acidic in the middle. The question is whether or not you spray enough coating on it to neutralize the acid throughout the board so that the entire board is both (a) no longer acidic (pH equal to or above 7) and (b) contains enough of an alkaline reserve to be buffered against future acid attack so that it will maintain a pH above 7 even if you introduce an acidic comic book to the vessel holding the comic and the Extender.

 

Someone should do the test that Bob (namisgr) suggested, with equal amounts of each board placed into a weak acid. Keep them there for a set time and then test the pH. We know that Gerber has a 3% buffer. We'll see how yours measures up to that.

[BCW Supplies]

How does your Extender have a 10% alkaline reserve? Didn't you originally say it was "coated" on both sides with a "3% calcium carbonate" spray? What does your alkaline reserve consist of, if not the calcium carbonate spray? If it is the spray coating, then where is the 10% figure coming from? No way is your board 10% calcium carbonate by weight.

The coating is calcium carbonate. And, it is the same amount of coating on both sides as our BCW Comic Backing Board has on one side. We state that the BCW Comic Backing Boards have a 3% buffer of calcium carbonate, but in testing it was actually a little over 4%. Here are the results of the test;

 

Alkaline Reserve, ASTM D-4988-96 (%)

BCW Silver Extender 10.04 %

BCW Current Board 4.36 %

 

The buffer, or calcium carbonate, is 10% because there is twice as much coating and there is approximately 42% less solid bleached sulfate in the BCW Comic Extenders than there is in the BCW Comic Backing Boards. As you can see above, the test results show the alkaline reserve (calcium carbonate) of the BCW Silver Extender is 10.04%.

 

 

[selegue]

I had pizza for dinner tonight (I know, as I get older I shouldn't eat that stuff). If I wake up at 1 AM with heart burn, I'll head over to the bathroom and grab the Mylanta. I just hope it isn't manufactured by BCW Supplies, or I'll be hurting for several hours.

Actually, we recommend against the use of Mylanta because it contains Aluminum hydroxide and may contribute to Alzheimer's disease.

 

I just noticed this thread yesterday but haven't read it all the way through. Fascinating and at times surreal. Has anyone done the grind-up-and-titrate experiment yet to actually measure the buffer capacity?

 

Your understanding of biochemistry and cause/effect is about as deep as your understanding of pH buffers.

 

According to The Alzheimer's Society, the overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that studies have not convincingly demonstrated a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease.

 

Yes, I know there there are some people still clinging to the belief that aluminum exposure "causes" Alzheimer's disease, but the connection has been debunked. Some people believe in astrology too.

 

JPS

 

 

[greggy]

Uh oh...more nerdy scientists in the house.

[whisp]

What does it mean to say that the BCW Xtender is "coated" then? If it is "coated" with some kind of spray, then there is no way it is 3% calcium carbonate by weight.

The proper name of the product is BCW Comic Extenders. They are also made of solid bleached sulfate board and they are coated with calcium carbonate. But, they are coated on both sides. They have an alkaline reserve of 10% and a pH of 8.35.

 

Also, if these things are 10 mils thick, they should not be interleaved between the cover and interior, whether they're buffered, coated, or acidic time bombs. End of story.

To date we have not received a complaint about staples popping through the paper as Mike suggests. If anyone has evidence to the contrary we would like to hear from you. We should point out that Bill Cole's Thin X-Tenders are 9 mil in thickness. Do you recommend that collectors use this product? We can't imagine that 1/1,000 of an inch makes much difference.

 

I don't think anything thicker than Microchamber paper should be interleaved because it could create a wrinkle in the cover stock if the book is stored in a snug mylar sleeve.

 

I don't advocate using any Bill Cole products. I don't disavow them either. I am a Gerber customer.

 

How does your Extender have a 10% alkaline reserve? Didn't you originally say it was "coated" on both sides with a "3% calcium carbonate" spray? What does your alkaline reserve consist of, if not the calcium carbonate spray? If it is the spray coating, then where is the 10% figure coming from? No way is your board 10% calcium carbonate by weight.

 

If you have bleached sulfate as the core of the board, it is acidic in the middle. The question is whether or not you spray enough coating on it to neutralize the acid throughout the board so that the entire board is both (a) no longer acidic (pH equal to or above 7) and (b) contains enough of an alkaline reserve to be buffered against future acid attack so that it will maintain a pH above 7 even if you introduce an acidic comic book to the vessel holding the comic and the Extender.

 

Someone should do the test that Bob (namisgr) suggested, with equal amounts of each board placed into a weak acid. Keep them there for a set time and then test the pH. We know that Gerber has a 3% buffer. We'll see how yours measures up to that.

 

How thick is a comic page and the cover page? I don't have a micrometer.

[whisp]

This horse doesn't want to drink, because it might cost him some business and make him look even dumber than he already does.

Perhaps now would be a good time to point out that we have not made a personal attack on any member of this forum. We only came to discuss the study that Mike has posted in a polite and professional manner. In return we have been subjected to a barrage of insults by certain members of this community.

 

 

No surprise which members ether. Surprised they havn't been calling you a liar yet which seems to be one of their defenses when they are wrong.

[selegue]

Where do you get the notion that "archival mat board" impregnated with 3% calcium carbonate won't absorb acid migrating from a comic? It will absolutely absorb and neutralize acids from a comic book.

According to Mike's study there was no change in the pH level of the E. Gerber boards at all. Therefore, either Mike's data is incorrect, or the E. Gerber board does not absorb any acid even after 2 years of use. ...

 

Wow.

 

Jack

[selegue]

WOW! Thanks, Mike, I don't know how I missed this post earlier either!

 

I have to agree with BCW on this. Now, I'm not saying that Mike's post was garbage, in fact I found it super informing, and it's actually going to make me switch to BCW.

 

The fact that the pH level changed on the board's surface means that there was an addition of H+ (positively charged hydrogen molecules, which is what an acid is) absorbed by the calcium carbonate.

 

The carbonate is what's called a Lewis base, and donates electrons to 2 positively charged hydrogen molecules to neutralize each other, and forms a weak acid known as carbonic acid (pH slightly above 6 if I remember correctly). The more carbonate molecules are used up with the absorption of acid, the lower the pH of the buffer surface over time.

 

Here's one way you can verify for yourselves if you have any doubts. Mix a small amount of water and white vinegar, and spread over a piece of paper and allow to dry. Test the pH of the paper before using a backing board (also test the surface of a board if you'd like clearer results.) Place the dried vinegar paper in a bag and board and allow for some time to pass. (If you're in a hurry, you can store at a higher heat and wait less time). Now when you remove and test the pH, you should find that the vinegar paper's pH level increased, while the board's should have decreased, showing an exchange of acid. You could also do the same using baking soda, but using the back of the board and looking for opposite pH results.

 

Mike, awesome work.

 

Wow**2

 

JPS

[OldGuy]

This horse doesn't want to drink, because it might cost him some business and make him look even dumber than he already does.

Perhaps now would be a good time to point out that we have not made a personal attack on any member of this forum. We only came to discuss the study that Mike has posted in a polite and professional manner. In return we have been subjected to a barrage of insults by certain members of this community.

 

All this means is that, if it is even true, the E. Gerber "representative" you spoke to does not know what he or she is talking about. This would not surprise me. I called E. Gerber a few years ago to ask a question for one of the preservation threads I was posting in and found the E. Gerber customer service rep to be pretty ignorant about the products Gerber sells. I suppose that's why they work in customer service - because if they knew about paper science or chemistry, they'd be paper scientists or chemists.

Is this the way manufacturer's representatives are treated here? Judging by your comment about employees of E. Gerber, a company who's products you obviously hold above our own, it is.

 

While the E. Gerber products are what I chose to use, I buy them from a reseller. The last time I

tried to order direct from E. Gerber I had to talk to a supervisor in order to avoid an international shipping charge............to New Mexico.

[BCW Supplies]

Your understanding of biochemistry and cause/effect is about as deep as your understanding of pH buffers.

 

According to The Alzheimer's Society, the overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that studies have not convincingly demonstrated a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease.

 

Yes, I know there there are some people still clinging to the belief that aluminum exposure "causes" Alzheimer's disease, but the connection has been debunked. Some people believe in astrology too.

 

JPS

It was a joke. We really didn't think we were going to have to defend ourselves where the correlation between Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease is concerned. However, now that we understand the ground rules, we will refrain from making any off-topic statement which can lead to an argument.