joe_collector Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 An educated market will eventially correct this as the number of high grade copies go up and the novelty of the slab goes down... Sure, and not to mention all the ticked off people who submitted their "bought off the newstand copy", received a CGC 9.6, and are now forced to watch their comic become "common" as more 9.0-9.4 copies are pressed to higher grades. In many ways, this rampant pressing (and clean-and-pressing) has made a mockery of the CGC "high grade scarcity" business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Go for it. Best of luck to you. Hope you don't get any books with "undisclosed pressing". Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 An educated market will eventially correct this as the number of high grade copies go up and the novelty of the slab goes down... Sure, and not to mention all the ticked off people who submitted their "bought off the newstand copy", received a CGC 9.6, and are now forced to watch their comic become "common" as more 9.0-9.4 copies are pressed to higher grades. In many ways, this rampant pressing (and clean-and-pressing) has made a mockery of the CGC "high grade scarcity" business model. I agree. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" rings true--for someone to gain, another must lose. It's all in a balanced equation. Market correction is inevitable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Go for it. Best of luck to you. Hope you don't get any books with "undisclosed pressing". Like I said, I've taken myself out of the CGC market for at least the foreseeable future. If people are manufacturing CGC 9.4-9.8 copies on their book presses, I can't see me paying less now, than I will a year or two in the future. By that time, there will be multiple copies for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Yeh, cause the only people who press their books are the people who submit to CGC.. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Go for it. Best of luck to you. Hope you don't get any books with "undisclosed pressing". Like I said, I've taken myself out of the CGC market for at least the foreseeable future. If people are manufacturing CGC 9.4-9.8 copies on their book presses, I can't see me paying less now, than I will a year or two in the future. By that time, there will be multiple copies for everyone. That's actually a good strategy, and one I'm becoming very familiar with... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I agree. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" rings true--for someone to gain, another must lose. It's all in a balanced equation. Market correction is inevitable... "Patience is a virtue" rings true as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I agree. "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" rings true--for someone to gain, another must lose. It's all in a balanced equation. Market correction is inevitable... "Patience is a virtue" rings true as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Yeh, cause the only people who press their books are the people who submit to CGC.. Yeah, well if I buy a set of VF/NM Bronze books for $2 a copy, then I'm not too worried about a few of them being "pressed". It's the "high dollar CGC crowd" that's gonna take the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I consider that pressing whether he sells it as a VF+/sends it to CGC or not. The important thing to my mind is whether the book's condition was improved as a result of some outside action. Here's a simple test: Question #1: Was a defect removed or minimized in some way through some external force or action? _____Yes _____No If you answered "No," then it is not restoration. If you answered "Yes," then go to #2. Question #2: How can you say that this is not restoration, you boob?? _____I can't seriously say that. It is restoration. _____But I want to make more money!!!! Whaaahhhhhhh!!!! _____It can't be detected, therefore it's not restoration even though it is restoration -- except it's not restoration. My head is spinning from all of this circular thinking. Is this considered "pressing"? If you sell it as VF+ or send it to CGC and get an 8.5 grade, then yes. If you keep it forever and take it to your grave, then we could refer to it as "closet pressing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Yeh, cause the only people who press their books are the people who submit to CGC.. Yeah, well if I buy a set of VF/NM Bronze books for $2 a copy, then I'm not too worried about a few of them being "pressed". It's the "high dollar CGC crowd" that's gonna take the bullet. I agree. I like my books CGC'd though, now I'm having second thoughts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_collector Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I agree. I like my books CGC'd though, now I'm having second thoughts.... Nah, I'm keeping what I got, since I don't buy "non-essentials", but I am going to watch how the market progresses and see how far south prices run as "pressed high-grade" supply increases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntboy Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I consider that pressing whether he sells it as a VF+/sends it to CGC or not. The important thing to my mind is whether the book's condition was improved as a result of some outside action. Here's a simple test: Question #1: Was a defect removed or minimized in some way through some external force or action? _____Yes _____No If you answered "No," then it is not restoration. If you answered "Yes," then go to #2. Question #2: How can you say that this is not restoration, you boob?? _____I can't seriously say that. It is restoration. _____But I want to make more money!!!! Whaaahhhhhhh!!!! _____It can't be detected, therefore it's not restoration even though it is restoration -- except it's not restoration. My head is spinning from all of this circular thinking. who you calling a boob??!! to take an oft referenced illustration; suppose i take my worst comics and place them on the bottom of a thousand comic pile (ok it ain't all the way to jupiter but you get the point). in 30 years time some of the ones with the lighter impact creases and non-color breaking creases may be improved from long and constant pressure. (that ain't what/why Church did what he did but the similarity exists, even though his may not have been improved or required improvement). so, are you actually saying that if i knowingly stack my comics this way and live to my mid eighties, i'll have a small pile of "restored" books on the bottom of my 10 foot pile??? because defects were removed/improved through some external force?? sorry - i do not buy this.............and for this reason, i tend to agree with the current CGC thinking that pressing is not restoration. and i would say to JC that i'd be happy to own a pressed 9.4 book that i like. and since it ain't detectable anyway, i'll never know. deep down inside i'd prefer a virgin book but that's what i'll be thinking it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE_BEYONDER Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 Here why I don't consider pressing restoration. The main logical reason people say pressing is restoration is that it takes a DEFECT (i.e. a non-color breaking crease), and through pressing, improves the appearance of the book (removing the non-color breaking crease so it is invisible to the naked eye). To counter that argument, I have always deemed Restoration to be adding or subtracting material from a book to improve the appearance. Pressing doesn't add or subtract material. That still isn't good enough for the PRESSING Fanatics. So!!!! Example: 1) You take a book out of it's mylar. While putting the book back into the mylar, a corner gets caught and is COMPLETELY bent back. 2) Once you see the book in the mylar, you see the folded corner and obviously can now see the pages at the corner. Of course this looks TERRIBLE. 3) You take the book back out of the mylar and FLIP the CORNER PIECE back down. This probably leaves a small crease line at the corner but of course the appearance of the book looks a lot better than when the corner was folded back. IS THIS RESTORATION? I'm sure EVERYONE of us has done that before, and would do it again in a heartbeat. I haven't yet read any responses to this thread, but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 You have my permission to change your name to "BoobBoy," Harry! I won't even charge you royalties! There are really two issues here: 1) Is pressing "restoration" if it is used to remove a defect? 2) If it is, is "pressing" as bad as color touch, trimming, piece replacement, etc.? To my mind, #1 is a definite yes if you are removing a defect. To my mind, #2 is a "not necessarily, and probably not" especially if, as you say, it merely occurs because of the way you store your comics in a pile. Personally, I think that you are far more likely to wind up with spine roll or some other defect (what if the stack falls over??? ) and that the "defect removal" will be minimal, if any, if you are pressing by stacking your comics really high. But there is a big difference between stacking comics in a pile such that some non-color-breaking bends are incidentally removed, and sending a VF silver age book to Matt Nelson, who applies heat, pressure, and humidity to the book to iron out some bends and sharpen blunted corners. This kind of "restoration" may not be easily detectible, and if it is, many people may not care that it occurred, but the book is being restored. I think that most of the disagreement about this topic comes not from whether pressing technically constitutes restoration, but whether it really matters to most collectors whether a book has been pressed or not. To me, it matters. To you, it doesn't. And that's all that really counts, right? I consider that pressing whether he sells it as a VF+/sends it to CGC or not. The important thing to my mind is whether the book's condition was improved as a result of some outside action. Here's a simple test: Question #1: Was a defect removed or minimized in some way through some external force or action? _____Yes _____No If you answered "No," then it is not restoration. If you answered "Yes," then go to #2. Question #2: How can you say that this is not restoration, you boob?? _____I can't seriously say that. It is restoration. _____But I want to make more money!!!! Whaaahhhhhhh!!!! _____It can't be detected, therefore it's not restoration even though it is restoration -- except it's not restoration. My head is spinning from all of this circular thinking. who you calling a boob??!! to take an oft referenced illustration; suppose i take my worst comics and place them on the bottom of a thousand comic pile (ok it ain't all the way to jupiter but you get the point). in 30 years time some of the ones with the lighter impact creases and non-color breaking creases may be improved from long and constant pressure. (that ain't what/why Church did what he did but the similarity exists, even though his may not have been improved or required improvement). so, are you actually saying that if i knowingly stack my comics this way and live to my mid eighties, i'll have a small pile of "restored" books on the bottom of my 10 foot pile??? because defects were removed/improved through some external force?? sorry - i do not buy this.............and for this reason, i tend to agree with the current CGC thinking that pressing is not restoration. and i would say to JC that i'd be happy to own a pressed 9.4 book that i like. and since it ain't detectable anyway, i'll never know. deep down inside i'd prefer a virgin book but that's what i'll be thinking it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 You have my permission to change your name to "BoobBoy". Actually I thought his name was renamed to LTL--Lightly Toasted Lad after he got his comic-keys refund? Copyright infringement! Lawsuit pending.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfilosa Posted April 1, 2004 Author Share Posted April 1, 2004 As I have stated many times: I only consider a book to be restored if some material has been added to or subtract from a book. Since pressing doesn't do either one of these thing, then by my standards it's not restoration (and honestly no one will change my mind). And since were on that subject, how come erasing a pencil mark is not considered restoration? In my mind some material has been removed from the book. OK, now lets all have some fun, stop the pressing argument and buy some cool books for our collections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowout Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 The important thing to my mind is whether the book's condition was improved as a result of some outside action. I don't even care about that, let people improve their books all they want. All I want to see is FULL DISCLOSURE of any process that has been carried out. Then let the potential buyer decide whether or not they can live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timely Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 Scotch tape is not considered restoration either, in my mind it's ameteur restoration...of the worse kind. However, the reason CGC does not consiser it restoration goes back to comic history and acceptability. Until about 1975 the only way anyone repaired a book was with scotch tape. Some "pros" of the day dabbled with elmer's glue, but 99% of it was tape repairs. Most collectors in the 70's and 80's had no choice but to accept the fact that long ago when a tear was made someone was there with a roll of tape to mend it. They were not really trying to restore the book, they just wanted the to make sure the rip did not get any longer. I do not care for tape and would prefer a properly done tear seal, of course that is defined as restoration. These are tough subjects to deal with in the collecting community, no doubt! Timely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sterlingcomics Posted April 1, 2004 Share Posted April 1, 2004 All I want to see is FULL DISCLOSURE of any process that has been carried out. I hear ya man, but I don't think its gonna happen, since a given comic's heritage has already been lost (except for maybe a pedigree that could be tracked from owner to owner). Even if a seller says 'NO PRESSING', he doesn't know what the previous 10 owners have done to it. CGC not recognizing it, and the trouble with even detecting it. Good luck there. I'd rather wish for world peace--it's more likely to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
