Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set
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I was thinking about posting this in the "these scores need fixing" thread, but thought I'd discuss it here so we can keep that thread streamlined.

 

The upcoming sale of a TMNT #1 in 9.8 had me thinking about the registry something dawned on me. The "epiphany" occurred when I checked to see if I'd get knocked out of 1st place if someone registered a 9.8 copy of #1. I'm currently just shy of 9,000 points (there's a link to the set in my sig line).

 

With the score adjustments that took place within this last year, TMNT #1 1st prints got a big point jump across all grades. Here are the current allotted scores for each grade:

 

9.2 - 2,000

9.4 - 4,000

9.6 - 6,700

9.8 - 11,000

 

At 11,000 points, someone who registers a 9.8 TMNT #1 would certainly take the top spot in the registry as it currently stands. I was ok with this as I know the importance of the book and I realize my set is incomplete, but I decided to play with the numbers a bit.

 

What I found out is that if I kept my #1 (a 9.4) and had a 9.8 in every other slot in the set (no easy feat, believe me) I STILL wouldn't have enough points to be in the #1 slot. :cry: Keep in mind that there are 85 slots in this set. Something about having 84 9.8's and 1 9.4 and STILL not being able to overtake a single (albeit awesome) book didn't sit well with me.

 

Are there any other sets that are like this? To give a frame of reference, a 9.8 of everything other than a #1 1st print would yield around 6,400 points...a little over half of the score of the #1 in the same grade.

 

Is this post mostly me just whining about a set of points that really don't mean anything in the long run? Absolutely. That said, I take great pride in my TMNT collection and my argument for a change would be that the reason for even having a TMNT #1-62 set (there's also a #1-4 set) is to showcase the entire run and I personally would find it a little disappointing if someone could take the top slot with a single book.

 

Of course I'm biased on this issue, so I wanted to open it up to board members so I could get some unbiased opinions on the matter. Should I pursue a score change so a single book couldn't take over the top spot of a relatively large set or should I keep my whining to myself, eat my sour grapes in silence, and appreciate the fact that a TMNT #1 9.8 even exists? Let me know. :popcorn:

 

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How exactly is the scoring of books determined? This has always been a bit of mystery to me.

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I know a lot of it has to do with price. Also rarity, significance to the set, rarity in grade, etc.

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You know Adam, that was one of the reasons that ultimately led to me dismantling my set. I was the person who originally requested the new set (apart from the 1-4 set). Back in the day, before fellas like you and others starting grading books en masse (which I was thankful for as I loved finally seeing these books graded), it was near impossible to find 9.8s of books. But I hunted and was proud to land these books when they arrived. Now, at the time I had a 9.2 #1 and with all of my other 9.8s held the top spot. Expanding the set out to 1-44 allowed me to have great growth. But then a single 9.6 #1 was registered, and boom, my top spot was lost. It didn't matter that I had 30 or so 9.8s, that single book was enough to win the set.

 

Like you, I figured that was just how it was and assumed that in other sets it happened as well. So I accepted it and was disheartened and ultimately lost interest in completing the set as since a 9.2 was THE perfect copy for me, I knew that no matter the work, my set would never be the best. And again like you, I knew that I was simply whining about a set of points that really don't matter so I just reflected on the fun I had put into the set and road off into the sunset. :)

 

Of course, that was all before a 9.8 had been offered publically. So you could just stop all the crying, win the book, and hold the title of #1 till the end of time! :insane:

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lol I have a 9.8 copy of Fight Comics #8 from 1940 that is only worth 5400 points. The next highest graded copy is a 5.5.

 

I don't think it is possible to have the points always make sense. But having one book worth more than the rest of the set combined is probably disproportionant.

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You know Adam, that was one of the reasons that ultimately led to me dismantling my set. I was the person who originally requested the new set (apart from the 1-4 set). Back in the day, before fellas like you and others starting grading books en masse (which I was thankful for as I loved finally seeing these books graded), it was near impossible to find 9.8s of books. But I hunted and was proud to land these books when they arrived. Now, at the time I had a 9.2 #1 and with all of my other 9.8s held the top spot. Expanding the set out to 1-44 allowed me to have great growth. But then a single 9.6 #1 was registered, and boom, my top spot was lost. It didn't matter that I had 30 or so 9.8s, that single book was enough to win the set.

 

Like you, I figured that was just how it was and assumed that in other sets it happened as well. So I accepted it and was disheartened and ultimately lost interest in completing the set as since a 9.2 was THE perfect copy for me, I knew that no matter the work, my set would never be the best. And again like you, I knew that I was simply whining about a set of points that really don't matter so I just reflected on the fun I had put into the set and road off into the sunset. :)

 

I'm sorry this happened to you and how you felt like you had to sell your set. Those uber-rare keys can be heartbreaking in every way in 9.8. Like you, I put alot of effort into my Modern Age Registry Set, a completely faithful focus that led to the sacrifice of other titles that came along. But, after a while, I realized I was building something more special in it's construction than a #1 spot in the Registry. I believe you were probably doing that too with your rare later 9.8 books. I'm beginning to see life in a bigger world outside the CGC Registry and have considered building a little forum on my love for the title I collect and to showcase the books I own. If you loved the TMNT books, like I know you did, you should have thought of doing that. That kind of generosity with fellow collectors and fans is worth more than some little piece document-sized paper. My 2c

 

P.S. I was always a fan of your posts involving this title. I have never read an issue, but you picqued my interest now and again. Do you collect anything now graded?

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I don't think it is possible to have the points always make sense. But having one book worth more than the rest of the set combined is probably disproportionant.

 

I think you're right about the points never being able to make sense 100% of the time. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the scores of a #1 1st print didn't take off until the score change that happened in the last year. I didn't realize it until now, but the score now puts the book out of range of the rest of the set. It wasn't always like that.

 

You know Adam, that was one of the reasons that ultimately led to me dismantling my set. I was the person who originally requested the new set (apart from the 1-4 set). Back in the day, before fellas like you and others starting grading books en masse (which I was thankful for as I loved finally seeing these books graded), it was near impossible to find 9.8s of books. But I hunted and was proud to land these books when they arrived. Now, at the time I had a 9.2 #1 and with all of my other 9.8s held the top spot. Expanding the set out to 1-44 allowed me to have great growth. But then a single 9.6 #1 was registered, and boom, my top spot was lost. It didn't matter that I had 30 or so 9.8s, that single book was enough to win the set.

 

Like you, I figured that was just how it was and assumed that in other sets it happened as well. So I accepted it and was disheartened and ultimately lost interest in completing the set as since a 9.2 was THE perfect copy for me, I knew that no matter the work, my set would never be the best. And again like you, I knew that I was simply whining about a set of points that really don't matter so I just reflected on the fun I had put into the set and road off into the sunset. :)

 

Of course, that was all before a 9.8 had been offered publicly. So you could just stop all the crying, win the book, and hold the title of #1 till the end of time! :insane:

 

Hey Danny! :hi:

 

It was a bit of a shock when you got rid of your graded TMNT collection about a year ago (I remember I was at Heroes Con when I got several texts telling me some amazing TMNT books were being sold and I needed to log on IMMEDIATELY lol )

 

I do have great fun putting this set together and honestly, you've helped me immensely so far. You've given me all kinds of information and even sold me a few of the books that I've needed for my set that eve to this day I've yet to find elsewhere. I'll definitely be finish the set regardless of my registry ranking, though it would be a bit disheartening to have every registry slot filled and lose to a guy that has a single book.

 

On the bright side, I've got a small batch of TMNT books that should be graded within the next 2 weeks that will help fill in most of the gaps in the set. You'll get a PM soon I'm sure. :)

 

I'm sorry this happened to you and how you felt like you had to sell your set. Those uber-rare keys can be heartbreaking in every way in 9.8. Like you, I put alot of effort into my Modern Age Registry Set, a completely faithful focus that led to the sacrifice of other titles that came along. But, after a while, I realized I was building something more special in it's construction than a #1 spot in the Registry. I believe you were probably doing that too with your rare later 9.8 books. I'm beginning to see life in a bigger world outside the CGC Registry and have considered building a little forum on my love for the title I collect and to showcase the books I own. If you loved the TMNT books, like I know you did, you should have thought of doing that. That kind of generosity with fellow collectors and fans is worth more than some little piece document-sized paper. My 2c

 

P.S. I was always a fan of your posts involving this title. I have never read an issue, but you picqued my interest now and again. Do you collect anything now graded?

 

Hi Jerel! :hi:

 

Sorry to answer for Danny, but I figured I'd say something since I'm here.

 

When he decided to get rid of his graded books, he didn't drop the turtles altogether. He decided that he could either maintain his OA collection or his graded book collection, but doing both was getting to be too costly. At this time, I was really gaining ground on him in the registry and he seems to believe to I'll finish the registry someday (which I plan on doing), so he dropped the graded books and focused on some OA. If you get a chance, check out his TMNT OA collection. For a turtle-collector, there's some truly awesome stuff there.

 

Plus, he's still a regular on these boards and still knows more about the property than most other TMNT fans I know. He's the NewEnglandGothic of the TMNT. (thumbs u

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lol I have a 9.8 copy of Fight Comics #8 from 1940 that is only worth 5400 points. The next highest graded copy is a 5.5.

 

I don't think it is possible to have the points always make sense. But having one book worth more than the rest of the set combined is probably disproportionant.

 

It makes perfect sense in this case, though.

 

From a monetary point of view, a CGC 9.8 copy of TMNT #1 is worth much, much more than every other book in the set put together - there really is no contest :shrug:

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I think you're right about the points never being able to make sense 100% of the time. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the scores of a #1 1st print didn't take off until the score change that happened in the last year. I didn't realize it until now, but the score now puts the book out of range of the rest of the set. It wasn't always like that.

 

It was when Gemma was trying to implement some point changes to take into consideration value and scarcity updated information, along with boardie requests.

 

That's when we were discussing how this applied to other independent and big two Copper Age books.

 

Interesting enough, wasn't there only one TMNT 1 CGC 9.8 at the time of these changes? I just checked the census and saw there are two listed now.

 

:o

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Hey Danny! :hi:

 

It was a bit of a shock when you got rid of your graded TMNT collection about a year ago (I remember I was at Heroes Con when I got several texts telling me some amazing TMNT books were being sold and I needed to log on IMMEDIATELY lol )

 

I do have great fun putting this set together and honestly, you've helped me immensely so far. You've given me all kinds of information and even sold me a few of the books that I've needed for my set that eve to this day I've yet to find elsewhere. I'll definitely be finish the set regardless of my registry ranking, though it would be a bit disheartening to have every registry slot filled and lose to a guy that has a single book.

 

On the bright side, I've got a small batch of TMNT books that should be graded within the next 2 weeks that will help fill in most of the gaps in the set. You'll get a PM soon I'm sure. :)

 

I'm sorry this happened to you and how you felt like you had to sell your set. Those uber-rare keys can be heartbreaking in every way in 9.8. Like you, I put alot of effort into my Modern Age Registry Set, a completely faithful focus that led to the sacrifice of other titles that came along. But, after a while, I realized I was building something more special in it's construction than a #1 spot in the Registry. I believe you were probably doing that too with your rare later 9.8 books. I'm beginning to see life in a bigger world outside the CGC Registry and have considered building a little forum on my love for the title I collect and to showcase the books I own. If you loved the TMNT books, like I know you did, you should have thought of doing that. That kind of generosity with fellow collectors and fans is worth more than some little piece document-sized paper. My 2c

 

P.S. I was always a fan of your posts involving this title. I have never read an issue, but you picqued my interest now and again. Do you collect anything now graded?

 

Hi Jerel! :hi:

 

Sorry to answer for Danny, but I figured I'd say something since I'm here.

 

When he decided to get rid of his graded books, he didn't drop the turtles altogether. He decided that he could either maintain his OA collection or his graded book collection, but doing both was getting to be too costly. At this time, I was really gaining ground on him in the registry and he seems to believe to I'll finish the registry someday (which I plan on doing), so he dropped the graded books and focused on some OA. If you get a chance, check out his TMNT OA collection. For a turtle-collector, there's some truly awesome stuff there.

 

Plus, he's still a regular on these boards and still knows more about the property than most other TMNT fans I know. He's the NewEnglandGothic of the TMNT. (thumbs u

 

Adam!! :headbang:

 

Your answer definitely sums up a major part of my process of moving out of CGC books. At the time I moved out of CGC, I had made major strides in collecting original artwork. And as anybody knows OA aint cheap! So when you came along Adam, doing amazing things in the registry, I knew that I could never do what you were on your way to doing. From day one, I've told you that I truly felt you could achieve 100% in the set in 9.8 and I still do. For me, with my limited time and energy, I decided to focus on my true passion, the artwork.

 

All of that said, I still have all TMNT titles raw, including every printing, crossover, variant, and just about anything else Turtles related (I'm talking about 600 or so DIFFERENT books here, plus some doubles) of which there are a number of titles that I'm not even sure anybody else knows about. So Gothic rest assured I still am here, am trying to do what you alluded to in your post, be somebody that can provide answers and help others learn as much about the title as possible. I'm also known as one of the few people who will sell items, including rare ones, at my cost. Just how I do things. And as far as if I collect any CGC books, I do still have some Turtles books, including the only double cover #1 2nd print that I've ever seen. :)

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It makes perfect sense in this case, though.

 

From a monetary point of view, a CGC 9.8 copy of TMNT #1 is worth much, much more than every other book in the set put together - there really is no contest :shrug:

 

Yep, I get it too. Value/dollars wise the rest of the set doesn't hold a candle. That said, the enormous difficulty of getting all of those other titles in 9.8 is no easy feat so it's just a shame that the end result is so disproportionate.

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lol I have a 9.8 copy of Fight Comics #8 from 1940 that is only worth 5400 points. The next highest graded copy is a 5.5.

 

I don't think it is possible to have the points always make sense. But having one book worth more than the rest of the set combined is probably disproportionant.

 

It makes perfect sense in this case, though.

 

From a monetary point of view, a CGC 9.8 copy of TMNT #1 is worth much, much more than every other book in the set put together - there really is no contest :shrug:

 

You're right on that count. Looking at the money, there is no contest that a #1 9.8 will blow away any other book in the run. I'm guessing it'd run at least 10x more than the second most expensive book in the run in the same grade.

 

There's no question that TMNT #1 in 9.8 should command a very high point value in the registry. In the eyes of many, it's the quintessential copper age book. However, we know that monetary value isn't the only thing that drives the point value of the books (although admittedly it is a strong factor).

 

Issues 16-62 and 3 of the #1 reprints all have generic point values (40 points for Universal 9.8) regardless of value, rarity, or significance to the run. There are a few issues in the run that have 20+ copies in 9.8 and can be found very easily on ebay at any given time. These are often books that have very little significance to the series. Conversely, there are some that are much less common and much more significant to the series (City at War comes to mind). I've got a handful of books that are lone census or at least lone 9.8's, which would technically make them more rare and should they go up for sale, I'm guessing some strong prices would be fetched. I'm not saying the prices would be on the same planet as #1 9.8 prices, but they would blow away the $30 common 9.8 books in the run. Regardless, all issues from #16-62 get the same point value.

 

Let's say that to help balance things out, the point values of the #1 1st prints don't need to change, but maybe the less common books get a bump from 40 to 80 in 9.8. This way, there's still no contest between a #1 in 9.8 (11,000 points) and any common issue in the run in the same grade (80 points). This would make it so someone with a complete set wouldn't get completely trounced by a single book, the #1 gets to maintain it's stratospheric point total (because frankly, it's an awesome book and it deserves one).

 

I'd like a little feedback on this idea (is it an ok idea or am I off my rocker?). Also, I haven't had much time to peruse the rest of the registry, but are there any other sets where there's a huge discrepancy between the point values of #1 and the rest of the run?

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It was when Gemma was trying to implement some point changes to take into consideration value and scarcity updated information, along with boardie requests.

 

That's when we were discussing how this applied to other independent and big two Copper Age books.

 

Interesting enough, wasn't there only one TMNT 1 CGC 9.8 at the time of these changes? I just checked the census and saw there are two listed now.

 

:o

 

I remember seeing my registry jump a lot of points one day to find that Gemma was adjusting the points of many titles. More recently, it looks like she even got around to changing the values of the #3 and #4 variants to show that they're not common. Thanks Gemma!

 

As for the 2nd 9.8 #1, that's a very recent piece of news. 2 weeks ago, there was only 1 on the census. mschmidt posted that a 9.8 #1 would be put up for sale before it was reflected on the census. You can check the TMNT thread (you know, where the cool kids hang out and talk bad about Hellboy) for dates.

 

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You can check the TMNT thread (you know, where the cool kids hang out and talk bad about Hellboy) for dates.

 

lol

 

:gossip: I'll survive without it.

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Adam I totally hear where you are coming from. But I feel that is how the cookie happens to crumble with the TMNT #1. I don't know how feasible it is to reinvent the wheel for one book...one set.

 

I'm sure there are other sets like this or at least fairly comparable. But as you know a 9.8 in many key #1s even in Copper sets a bar. And Gemma does the absolute best to appease all of us and make the Registry up to snuff. Each Boardie has their own view of the Registry and what it means to them and their personal collecting. #1 doesn't necessarily translate to #1 when it comes to heart and sole.

 

Hey one book I feel your pain for less common is Groo #3 Pacific. Finding that book in a 9.8 was a long, time consuming, pricey endeavor. I HAPPILY offered $250 for one. Any sane person would consider that book a $20-$30 slab!! I couldn't find one for the life of me that grades out above a 9.6. So in my eyes Groo #3 Pacific is honestly worth so much more monetarily and scarcity wise than #1 it is comical. But that is not how it is interpreted in the algorithm. So imho, that's that and I go with it.

 

Where does a 9.6 #1 put you? Maybe a 9.8 can't come into fruition but a 9.6 needs to be your TMNT goal.

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Hey one book I feel your pain for less common is Groo #3 Pacific. Finding that book in a 9.8 was a long, time consuming, pricey endeavor. I HAPPILY offered $250 for one. Any sane person would consider that book a $20-$30 slab!! I couldn't find one for the life of me that grades out above a 9.6. So in my eyes Groo #3 Pacific is honestly worth so much more monetarily and scarcity wise than #1 it is comical. But that is not how it is interpreted in the algorithm. So imho, that's that and I go with it.

 

You definitely did an amazing job collecting a straight 9.8 Groo set. :cloud9:

 

Right after Wayne tracked one down for you, other Groo #3's started coming up on Comiclink and Heritage like magic. Groo #4 is another tough one from my searches.

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Thanks Nick!!

 

I lucked out with my #4, but without a doubt that is another toughy.

 

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Adam I totally hear where you are coming from. But I feel that is how the cookie happens to crumble with the TMNT #1. I don't know how feasible it is to reinvent the wheel for one book...one set.

 

Yeah, part of me considered this. Of course I'm biased, so I just wanted to put it out there to get some objective opinions on the matter. Yours is certainly noted. :) As for re-inventing the wheel, I think that for a run that started over 25 year ago, this set has undergone many renovations. It was originally a 1-15 set, then it went to 1-44, then 1-62, then included reprints of #1. On top of that, it has had a few score changes overall as the set evolved. This particular wheel has been reinvented several times to date.

 

I guess my main contention is that there's already a TMNT 1-4 set, which are typically the most-collected books in the run. By all rights, someone who owns a #1 9.8 should dominate that set. It shows who owns the highest graded copies of the most collectible books in the set. However, it seems to me that a TMNT 1-62 set should favor a complete set of books over a single, high-grade book.

 

I think it's important to note that Telerites already owns a #1 9.8 and could have come in and claimed the #1 spot in the 1-62 set at any time in the last few years but he hasn't. He's currently the #1 slot in the 1-4 set. I've never asked him why he's done this, but perhaps he feels the same way I do. (shrug) I don't compete in the 1-4 set just because I'd like to focus my collection on the full run and the same books are showcased there.

 

I'm sure there are other sets like this or at least fairly comparable. But as you know a 9.8 in many key #1s even in Copper sets a bar. And Gemma does the absolute best to appease all of us and make the Registry up to snuff. Each Boardie has their own view of the Registry and what it means to them and their personal collecting. #1 doesn't necessarily translate to #1 when it comes to heart and sole.

 

Gemma does a great job and honestly, I'm not sure how she does it all. Thanks Gemma! :foryou:

I'm going to take a little time and look at the registry. I want to find a few sets that have comparable discrepancies to make myself feel a little better. I want to look at some of the more comparable 3rd party titles like Crow, Hellboy, and Usagi, but I also want to look at the heavy hitters like Amazing Fantasy/ASM and Action Comics.

Regardless, not being #1 in the registry won't hinder my passion for gathering the set in 9.8. :cool:

 

Hey one book I feel your pain for less common is Groo #3 Pacific. Finding that book in a 9.8 was a long, time consuming, pricey endeavor. I HAPPILY offered $250 for one. Any sane person would consider that book a $20-$30 slab!! I couldn't find one for the life of me that grades out above a 9.6. So in my eyes Groo #3 Pacific is honestly worth so much more monetarily and scarcity wise than #1 it is comical. But that is not how it is interpreted in the algorithm. So imho, that's that and I go with it.

 

I know what you went through, believe me. :cry: Still going through it. lol However, the biggest discrepancy in the Groo set is between your #1 (176 points) and your #3 (112 points), meaning #3 is worth about 64% of the point value of #1. In the TMNT set, some of the hard to find issues are worth 40 points, or 0.3% of the point value of #1. I know these are 2 different animals entirely,

 

Impressive registry set by the way. :applause: It can be tough to find these non-mainstream titles, let alone in high grade. Well-done!

 

Where does a 9.6 #1 put you? Maybe a 9.8 can't come into fruition but a 9.6 needs to be your TMNT goal.

 

You're right, a TMNT #1 9.6 would put me over the mark. It's just hard to believe that it'd take a 9.6 and a near-complete run (70+ issues) to compete with a 9.8. Perhaps you're right, maybe a 9.6 should be my focus. hm

 

 

 

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Why is it that the vast majority of Turtle fans on the Boards are some nicest dammn people?!?!? I again hear where your take is on the matter and why you feel so. I wanted to get back to Adam asap, but I gotta be brief my son is waking up soon from his nap.

 

I noticed the same thing about Jeff awhile back not doing that. Cause I didn't know how cool it was of me being in the complete set since I only have 5 books in the set and 4 as you know are the first four!! That just shows what type of collector and person Jeff is - Good People.

 

I'd be anxious to hear how many books you find similiar to the TMNT #1 scenario. Maybe there aren't that many. As for my Groo #3 compared to Groo #1......yeah when you explicate it like that.....I have no ground to stand on!!! I guess scarcity wise to #1 is the only comparison I got!!

 

As for upgrading to a 9.6.....I think that could be the way to go. We are talking Copper Age books and not Gold, Silver or even Bronze. So it is not like you are hunting and paying for a Spidey #1 9.8. (Granted....this particular Copper book is a priced like a nice SA book for the most part!!)

A 9.6 is I feel is a VERY good representation for a KEY Copper book. (A 9.4 is a good one too though, especially for the book at hand - lol!) Believe me I know that it can be a pricey endeavor for TMNT #1 9.6 can be, but at least you have a 9.4 to work with for a sale, that helps big time. (Unless you are keeping that)

 

I wish you luck and anxious to hear what you find out about #1s in relation to others. I would thinj Gold sets might be more along the lines of what your encountering.

 

 

Take care Adam.

Eric

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OK I got the plan to fix all of this. All of us turtle nuts get together and chip in on the 9.8. If we get 7 of us together it wont be more than like 3 or 4 grand a piece. Pocket change!

 

Then we just split us who gets to have it in their registry set on each day of the week. Adam get get Monday, Ill take Tuesday, Danny Wed, Pete, Thurs, etc. etc.

 

Everyone wins!!!

 

:jokealert:

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