Moderns that are heating up on ebay! 70 70

[jcjames]

13 hours ago, FineCollector said:

Their sins are many, but their market is dependant on artificial rarity.  Most collectors dont build sets, they only want the rookie cards (usually short printed) and "special" ones (signed, numbered, piece of jersey, color variants, and combinations therein).  It's not uncommon to see someone open packs, put the special cards in top loads, and throw out the rest.  Every company makes multiple sets, and each set has it's own batch of special cards, so to make them more special, they number them to make them rarer. It's to the point where there are sets where every card is a special, and you pay hundreds of dollars per pack.  Obviously, the common specials become worthless, and people chase after the really special specials.

Thanks for that explanation - If that's not analogous of the modern variant mania of today, I don't know any better analogy.

 

[divad]

10 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

Back to my original (and final) comment on the matter

Magari! (If only!)

[paul747]

21 hours ago, rckstr1253 said:

Well i dont know anyone on here personally, nor do i have a horse in this race, but i do know a few years ago an ebay user did contact me with a proposition to buy about 10 or so black venom error comics.  When i asked how he acquired them after talking about how great a character venom was to us gro3qing up, he did confide in me that he knew a gentleman/collector who did indeed successfully remove the red chrome and had sent a bunch of them to cgc to be graded over the years.  All came back legit error comics, though he had made them.  The guy did show me pics of the 10 or so that he was going to sell me but i was turned off by how they werent legit errors.  With that said, id love to hear if anyone on here had tried removing the chrome and succeeded.

Book is a joke period, Should be worthless !

Edited March 24, 2019 by paul747

[MGH]

Yup .. lethal protector is nothing short of a forgettable , terribly written  mini series with not bad but not great artwork ..  good luck to those dropping thousands on rare misprints ..   

[paul747]

14 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The book isn't embossed.

Again if you're entirely unfamiliar with the book, the process used to make it, and the process to "create" fakes, how can you possibly say, with any degree of certainty, that the example you pointed to is an example of one...?

Dude! you know so much about this book and the process, Is it possible? , I mean I have been hearing it for years and there was something on the net a while back that I cant find. Seems like many, many people have mentioned or claimed that this happens , Are you saying that this has never happened? are you saying that its impossible? Do you know something that can put this "rumor" to bed?

[Second Blight]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Immortal-Hulk-1-Ashley-Witter-AOD-Variant-Limited-3000-Marvel-2018/113686626567?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649    SHILLED TO DEATH

Edited March 24, 2019 by Second Blight

[rckstr1253]

52 minutes ago, paul747 said:

Dude! you know so much about this book and the process, Is it possible? , I mean I have been hearing it for years and there was something on the net a while back that I cant find. Seems like many, many people have mentioned or claimed that this happens , Are you saying that this has never happened? are you saying that its impossible? Do you know something that can put this "rumor" to bed?

Yea i dont remember the specifics but the guy who was creating them lived in chicago and used a heat method to lift the chrome up without damaging the book.  Dont get me wrong, i do believe a lot of these black venom errors are legit printing errors, but i know what i saw and the Ebayer trying to sell me 10 or so error comics told me where they came from.   There is also a legit counterfeit printed black venom error as well.

[RockMyAmadeus]

51 minutes ago, paul747 said:

15 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The book isn't embossed.

Again if you're entirely unfamiliar with the book, the process used to make it, and the process to "create" fakes, how can you possibly say, with any degree of certainty, that the example you pointed to is an example of one...?

Dude! you know so much about this book and the process, Is it possible? , I mean I have been hearing it for years and there was something on the net a while back that I cant find. Seems like many, many people have mentioned or claimed that this happens , Are you saying that this has never happened? are you saying that its impossible? Do you know something that can put this "rumor" to bed?

Dude! What I know or don't know about this book isn't relevant, nor am I making any claims about it. Someone claimed that a book someone else was selling was fake, and that he knew how it was faked. When asked for proof, claimant was unwilling and unable to provide any. 

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "claimed that this happens." What is "this"? That these books are faked? Or that fakes are produced that fool CGC? 

The answer to the first is "yes, absolutely", and the answer to the second is a solid "no."

By all means, if you have evidence of this book being faked in a way that will fool CGC, share it. The community needs to be aware of these things, wouldn't you agree?

[paul747]

16 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Dude! What I know or don't know about this book isn't relevant, nor am I making any claims about it. Someone claimed that a book someone else was selling was fake, and that he knew how it was faked. When asked for proof, claimant was unwilling and unable to provide any. 

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "claimed that this happens." What is "this"? That these books are faked? Or that fakes are produced that fool CGC? 

The answer to the first is "yes, absolutely", and the answer to the second is a solid "no."

By all means, if you have evidence of this book being faked in a way that will fool CGC, share it. The community needs to be aware of these things, wouldn't you agree?

Whatever your an enigma wrapped in a riddle DUDE ! you always come across like you know the answer, but in reality your just the devils advocate, I get it.  I know nothing for a fact about this book !  but the strong possibility that these can be faked ! you made it sound like you knew the material and had knowledge about it being not likely.

[RockMyAmadeus]

10 minutes ago, rckstr1253 said:

1 hour ago, paul747 said:

Dude! you know so much about this book and the process, Is it possible? , I mean I have been hearing it for years and there was something on the net a while back that I cant find. Seems like many, many people have mentioned or claimed that this happens , Are you saying that this has never happened? are you saying that its impossible? Do you know something that can put this "rumor" to bed?

Yea i dont remember the specifics but the guy who was creating them lived in chicago and used a heat method to lift the chrome up without damaging the book.  Dont get me wrong, i do believe a lot of these black venom errors are legit printing errors, but i know what i saw and the Ebayer trying to sell me 10 or so error comics told me where they came from.   There is also a legit counterfeit printed black venom error as well.

This is how rumors persist, gentlemen. Someone will read what you wrote, and then, down the road, will remember that someone, somewhere said it was possible, and they heard of a guy who had done it, etc etc etc....all the while providing absolutely zero evidence. "I know a guy who knew a guy" isn't evidence.

Here is a closeup of the title of the CGC 9.8 Venom black that sold at Heritage on Aug 2 of last year:

See the "ghost" of the foil, especially on the "O"? It's around the other letters, too. Notice how it's always on the left, but not the right? That's how it is on the entire cover.

Now. I am not a printer, nor have I ever worked for a printer, and know very little about the printing process. But common sense suggests that if someone tried to "lift" the foil that it would not be possible to leave perfect, consistently placed remnants like this.

Here's another, even more stark example, the CGC 10 sold on Feb 25, 2010:

Again, same orientation of the foil that is there. Are those separate pieces of foil? How would a counterfeiter be able to leave such a consistent remnant pattern?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying you can't claim it's possible, provide zero proof, and not expect to be challenged on it. If you have any actual evidence, it would be of great benefit to the entire comics community to see it.

[Jaydogrules]

2 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This is how rumors persist, gentlemen. Someone will read what you wrote, and then, down the road, will remember that someone, somewhere said it was possible, and they heard of a guy who had done it, etc etc etc....all the while providing absolutely zero evidence. "I know a guy who knew a guy" isn't evidence.

Here is a closeup of the title of the CGC 9.8 Venom black that sold at Heritage on Aug 2 of last year:

See the "ghost" of the foil, especially on the "O"? It's around the other letters, too. Notice how it's always on the left, but not the right? That's how it is on the entire cover.

Now. I am not a printer, nor have I ever worked for a printer, and know very little about the printing process. But common sense suggests that if someone tried to "lift" the foil that it would not be possible to leave perfect, consistently placed remnants like this.

Here's another, even more stark example, the CGC 10 sold on Feb 25, 2010:

Again, same orientation of the foil that is there. Are those separate pieces of foil? How would a counterfeiter be able to leave such a consistent remnant pattern?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying you can't claim it's possible, provide zero proof, and not expect to be challenged on it. If you have any actual evidence, it would be of great benefit to the entire comics community to see it.

Wrong again, dude. 

The remaindered foil is pretty much always random, as can be seen here on another faked one.

God only knows how many faked ones CGC has graded, I suspect, given the hundreds on the census and counting, that the number is not in-substantial.

-J.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, paul747 said:

Whatever your an enigma wrapped in a riddle DUDE ! you always come across like you know the answer, but in reality your just the devils advocate, I get it.  I know nothing for a fact about this book !  but the strong possibility that these can be faked ! you made it sound like you knew the material and had knowledge about it being not likely.

I am sorry that you're unfamiliar with the critical thought process, whereby one derives answers to questions they have by objectively analyzing the facts to arrive at a conclusion. If I "always come across" in some manner, I would suggest that that is your interpretation, reading into comments your own biases, rather than what is actually written on the screen. 

If you think there is a "strong possibility that these can be faked" in a manner that will fool CGC (which is the basis of this entire discussion), again..for the third time...I invite you to share such evidence. If you have no evidence, however, I would ask you to consider your obligation to your fellow collectors to not spread rumors that are unsubstantiated. 

[rckstr1253]

Well im not claiming they are all fake error made venoms....just that i know what i saw, and this guy had been able to make some black errors himself.  Like i said before, i believe most are just printing errors, but people do figure out ways to make thjngs happen, and i know i saw 10 or more black venom errors available for sale from 1 guy who told me how he acquired them. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

18 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

24 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

This is how rumors persist, gentlemen. Someone will read what you wrote, and then, down the road, will remember that someone, somewhere said it was possible, and they heard of a guy who had done it, etc etc etc....all the while providing absolutely zero evidence. "I know a guy who knew a guy" isn't evidence.

Here is a closeup of the title of the CGC 9.8 Venom black that sold at Heritage on Aug 2 of last year:

See the "ghost" of the foil, especially on the "O"? It's around the other letters, too. Notice how it's always on the left, but not the right? That's how it is on the entire cover.

Now. I am not a printer, nor have I ever worked for a printer, and know very little about the printing process. But common sense suggests that if someone tried to "lift" the foil that it would not be possible to leave perfect, consistently placed remnants like this.

Here's another, even more stark example, the CGC 10 sold on Feb 25, 2010:

Again, same orientation of the foil that is there. Are those separate pieces of foil? How would a counterfeiter be able to leave such a consistent remnant pattern?

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying you can't claim it's possible, provide zero proof, and not expect to be challenged on it. If you have any actual evidence, it would be of great benefit to the entire comics community to see it.

Wrong again, dude. 

The remaindered foil is pretty much always random, as can be seen here on another faked one.

God only knows how many faked ones CGC has graded, I suspect, given the hundreds on the census and counting, that the number is not in-substantial.

-J.

 

 

 

Notice what Jaydogrules has done, here. He's offered an example of one he plainly claims has been faked, in comparison with two examples that were graded by CGC (both of which show the consistent foil pattern of the real versions.) He's conflated the fake with the genuine, and either cannot tell the difference between the two, and so claims that the foil pattern (the key factor in determining fake from real) is irrelevant, or he knows very well the difference, and is trying to muddy the water by saying "see? The foil patterns are all over the place!"

To which I say "yes, obviously, on a fake, the foil pattern would be all over the place. No doubt about it."  And on the genuine ones, the foil pattern is NOT all over the place, or "pretty much random" as Jaydogrules puts it.

The foil pattern is one of the key indications, if not THE key, to distinguishing a faked copy from a genuine one. 

This is how rumors persist.

I would ask where Jaydogrules got his example, and how it was achieved, but he refuses to ask direct questions, which is unfortunate. I agree with him, that the example he provided is a fake, and would never be graded as genuine by CGC.

Here is another example of a genuine copy, from the Jan 5, 2003 Heritage auction:

Now, notice that the foil on this one is oriented to the right. That's different from above, but notice that the orientation pattern is still consistent...that is, you don't see right AND left oriented foil remnants.

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Jaydogrules]

1 hour ago, paul747 said:

Dude! you know so much about this book and the process, Is it possible? , I mean I have been hearing it for years and there was something on the net a while back that I cant find. Seems like many, many people have mentioned or claimed that this happens , Are you saying that this has never happened? are you saying that its impossible? Do you know something that can put this "rumor" to bed?

You are correct that was a video of a guy doing it on YouTube, long since deleted, utilizing a method very close to the one I linked a couple pages back.

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Even considering Jaydogrules' example, that is an interesting foil pattern, and I'm not quite convinced that that one is really a fake...

Remember, foil can be offset incorrectly in a number of ways, like this example:

and this:

 

 

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Notice what Jaydogrules has done, here. He's offered an example of one he plainly claims has been faked, in comparison with two examples that were graded by CGC (both of which show the consistent foil pattern of the real versions.) He's conflated the fake with the genuine, and either cannot tell the difference between the two, and so claims that the foil pattern (the key factor in determining fake from real) is irrelevant, or he knows very well the difference, and is trying to muddy the water by saying "see? The foil patterns are all over the place!

To which I say "yes, obviously, on a fake, the foil pattern would be all over the place. No doubt about it." 

The foil pattern is one of the key indications, if not THE key, to distinguishing a faked copy from a genuine one. 

This is how rumors persist.

I would ask where Jaydogrules got his example, and how it was achieved, but he refuses to ask direct questions, which is unfortunate. I agree with him, that the example he provided is a fake, and would never be graded as genuine by CGC.

Here is another example of a genuine copy, from the Jan 5, 2003 Heritage auction:

Now, notice that the foil on this one is oriented to the right. That's different from above, but notice that the orientation pattern is still consistent...that is, you don't see right AND left oriented foil remnants.

 

No one has said that ALL the errors are faked.  I think you miss the point.  The point is that the foil CAN be removed and copies CAN (and have) been faked. To varying degrees, depending on the extent of the degradation of whatever embossing process was originally used.  

I'm not saying the foil can be removed on EVERY copy either.  I'm saying that it CAN be removed on many copies.  And I know for a fact that CGC has graded faked ones because I know someone who sacrificed a couple dozen copies or so of what he thought were good "candidates", and made 6 of them and got them ALL graded over a year or so period.  No one, not even CGC, is able to tell which ones are real and which ones were made 20 years later.

Which is why none should be graded IMO.

-J.

[paul747]

29 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I am sorry that you're unfamiliar with the critical thought process, whereby one derives answers to questions they have by objectively analyzing the facts to arrive at a conclusion. If I "always come across" in some manner, I would suggest that that is your interpretation, reading into comments your own biases, rather than what is actually written on the screen. 

If you think there is a "strong possibility that these can be faked" in a manner that will fool CGC (which is the basis of this entire discussion), again..for the third time...I invite you to share such evidence. If you have no evidence, however, I would ask you to consider your obligation to your fellow collectors to not spread rumors that are unsubstantiated. 

Really, I think you like to type! Go play in the wind man! I think a lot of people would get the impression that you type in circles.  Your should be called twist me amadeus

Edited March 24, 2019 by paul747

[RockMyAmadeus]

8 minutes ago, paul747 said:

Really, I think you like to type! Go play in the wind man! I think a lot of people would get the impression that you type in circles.  Your should be called twist me amadeus

Feel better...?

[paul747]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Feel better...?

No. I hate being negative.