Moderns that are heating up on ebay! 70 70

[MrWeen]

Last Avengers Story 2 is heating up...

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, paul747 said:

 

You are offended by the facts? The facts make you feel the need to be snarky?

[RockMyAmadeus]

7 hours ago, paul747 said:

They do print off of the final order number, they have a system! it is not a shot in the dark system. No one can claim x amount was printed, but It can definitely be speculated on.

Who said it was a "shot in the dark system" (whatever that means)...? Who said it "couldn't be speculated on"...? 

No one.

But "they do print off of the final order number"...ok. How? What is their "system"? Got any documentation? How do the Comichron numbers...which report only a MONTH BY MONTH sales tally (that is, if they sell more copies on the SECOND month, it's not reported in the sales numbers for the FIRST)...determine what the publisher decided to print...? How do you account for the massive sales that the publishers have of unsold copies from time to time, months after publication, and how do those unsold copies relate to the supposed "print run"...? And what about the sales of these copies outside of North America, where there is a not-insubstantial market for English language American comics...?

It's a bad argument. No one but the publishers and their printers know how many copies they print. Citing Comichron's SALES numbers and correlating them to PRINT runs makes as much sense as estimating the number of cars Ford makes in a model year by the number of sales of those cars in North America.

There's nothing wrong with estimating. But we ought to use the correct terminology and caveats to do so. Where is the controversy in that? When you don't, you confuse people who don't know better.

Edited September 23, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[500Club]

5 hours ago, paul747 said:

12 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Comichron reports north american sales, not print runs, which are industry secrets.

 

The record is broken because people keep playing the same  song.

Comichron  numbers are not synonymous with accurate print run data.   Stop pushing that selection on the jukebox.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, Readcomix said:

Thank you @RockMyAmadeus @Second Blight I did mix up what they were reporting, and I should have added the usual disclaimer language that the real numbers are not ones we can know with certainty. Paul747 gets at my real point better than I dd, which is based on what we can infer from these numbers, however loosely, it's likely not the most printed book out there either, though it would not be small by Modern standards even if that number were an exact one.

The book is...relative to the time period in which it was published...actually fairly common. We can assume that Marvel printed anywhere from 100-200K Direct market copies (all of which would theoretically still exist, barring attrition) and perhaps another 20-25k copies for the newsstand...very, very, VERY loosely extrapolated from what we know about the Amazing Spiderman SOO from 2011.

We do know that the book...separate from what was sold at the initial distribution period...was issued in "multi packs", which means a not-insubstantial portion of whatever they printed was not initially distributed.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[paul747]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Who said it was a "shot in the dark system" (whatever that means)...? Who said it "couldn't be speculated on"...? 

No one.

But "they do print off of the final order number"...ok. How? What is their "system"? Got any documentation? How do the Comichron numbers...which report only a MONTH BY MONTH sales tally (that is, if they sell more copies on the SECOND month, it's not reported in the sales numbers for the FIRST)...determine what the publisher decided to print...? How do you account for the massive sales that the publishers have of unsold copies from time to time, months after publication, and how do those unsold copies relate to the supposed "print run"...? And what about the sales of these copies outside of North America, where there is a not-insubstantial market for English language American comics...?

It's a bad argument. No one but the publishers and their printers know how many copies they print. Citing Comichron's SALES numbers and correlating them to PRINT runs makes as much sense as estimating the number of cars Ford makes in a model year by the number of sales of those cars in North America.

There's nothing wrong with estimating. But we ought to use the correct terminology and caveats to do so. Where is the controversy in that? When you don't, you confuse people who don't know better.

dude stop. You keep saying the same things, you goat people into heated discussions so you can write in circles, hence the broken record and to not get the "shot in the dark" analogy

 

 

But "they do print off of the final order number"...ok. How? What is their "system"? Got any documentation? DO YOU? would it make any business sense to you to double the final order number? they started the system because they where getting killed on profit. please man ask someone! How do the Comichron numbers...which report only a MONTH BY MONTH sales tally (that is, if they sell more copies on the SECOND month, it's not reported in the sales numbers for the FIRST)...determine what the publisher decided to print...?DID I SAY THEY DID? How do you account for the massive sales MASSIVE as far as titles, but many of the books in these sales are only hundreds of copies ! fact . that the publishers have of unsold copies from time to time,Well i think and have heard that they order a damage percentage and a percentage over the final order cut-off to cover other things and that those numbers also correlate to case pack counts. If they don't use the damage percentage and don't sell them on the diamond system after x amount of time they become surplus over stock.please please prove that's not correct. months after publication, and how do those unsold copies relate to the supposed "print run"... I don't recall stating this? Actually i did not bring up any of this you have! but since you asked i would say that i would definitely consider the extra books as part of the print run And what about the sales of these copies outside of North America, where there is a not-insubstantial market for English language American comics...? Who knows , all i have said is that there is a system and its not guessing! (not a shot in the dark) I think the industry guys will tell you foreign sales are usually a pretty basic percentage of us sales. Have you ever asked anyone any of these questions? do you know?

It's a bad argument. Your the only one arguing ! No one but the publishers and their printers know how many copies they print. Citing Comichron's SALES numbers and correlating them to PRINT runs makes as much sense as estimating the number of cars Ford makes in a model year by the number of sales of those cars in North America. Who did that? me?

There's nothing wrong with estimating. But we ought to use the correct terminology and caveats to do so. Where is the controversy in that? When you don't, you confuse people who don't know better. THAT'S NOT YOUR CALL! Tell us everything you know bro! Tell us Boss, the right language. Also while you are at your internet typing why don't you contact some people that actually do know some of these things so you can stop speculating on arguments. Honesty writing and arguing points with you is just not worth anything, its such a waste of time.

I was also referring to bright something about the shot in the dark comment, when he claimed that MANY MANY more where printed. But of course it became about you.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by paul747

[shiro9]

After the many years of this garbage do people not understand it's like a guideline type of thing???  It gives you an general idea type of thing.

Back on track.  Buy Saga 1, its the only book with a future.  Thanks

[Second Blight]

6 hours ago, MrWeen said:

Last Avengers Story 2 is heating up...

Another Ben Parker that's not related to the Ben Parker in Spider-man #1

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, paul747 said:

dude stop. You keep saying the same things, you goat people into heated discussions so you can write in circles, hence the broken record and to not get the "shot in the dark" analogy

 

 

But "they do print off of the final order number"...ok. How? What is their "system"? Got any documentation? DO YOU? would it make any business sense to you to double the final order number? they started the system because they where getting killed on profit. please man ask someone! How do the Comichron numbers...which report only a MONTH BY MONTH sales tally (that is, if they sell more copies on the SECOND month, it's not reported in the sales numbers for the FIRST)...determine what the publisher decided to print...?DID I SAY THEY DID? How do you account for the massive sales MASSIVE as far as titles, but many of the books in these sales are only hundreds of copies ! fact . that the publishers have of unsold copies from time to time,Well i think and have heard that they order a damage percentage and a percentage over the final order cut-off to cover other things and that those numbers also correlate to case pack counts. If they don't use the damage percentage and don't sell them on the diamond system after x amount of time they become surplus over stock.please please prove that's not correct. months after publication, and how do those unsold copies relate to the supposed "print run"... I don't recall stating this? Actually i did not bring up any of this you have! but since you asked i would say that i would definitely consider the extra books as part of the print run And what about the sales of these copies outside of North America, where there is a not-insubstantial market for English language American comics...? Who knows , all i have said is that there is a system and its not guessing! (not a shot in the dark) I think the industry guys will tell you foreign sales are usually a pretty basic percentage of us sales. Have you ever asked anyone any of these questions? do you know?

It's a bad argument. Your the only one arguing ! No one but the publishers and their printers know how many copies they print. Citing Comichron's SALES numbers and correlating them to PRINT runs makes as much sense as estimating the number of cars Ford makes in a model year by the number of sales of those cars in North America. Who did that? me?

There's nothing wrong with estimating. But we ought to use the correct terminology and caveats to do so. Where is the controversy in that? When you don't, you confuse people who don't know better. THAT'S NOT YOUR CALL! Tell us everything you know bro! Tell us Boss, the right language. Also while you are at your internet typing why don't you contact some people that actually do know some of these things so you can stop speculating on arguments. Honesty writing and arguing points with you is just not worth anything, its such a waste of time.

I was also referring to bright something about the shot in the dark comment, when he claimed that MANY MANY more where printed. But of course it became about you.

 

1. There's a difference between an "argument" and "arguing." They mean different things. 

2. Your response is not measured, rational, or reasonable. As an example, I did not post a picture of a "broken record" in response to your comment to someone else. You did to me. Yet, you claim I "goated" you...? You did precisely what you accuse me of doing. I could say much more, but it's not tolerated.

3. It is important for everyone to understand things properly. As @500Club stated, continuing to repeat wrong information confuses people who don't know better. 

Take care.

Edited September 23, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

23 minutes ago, shiro9 said:

After the many years of this garbage do people not understand it's like a guideline type of thing???

Yes. People do not understand it's like a guideline type of thing, because the people who repeat misinformation don't say "this is a guideline type of thing." Surely you're aware that there are new people reading this board on a daily basis, who don't know these things...right?

Why are people willing to accept the garbage of stating things that aren't true, correct, accurate?

There's nothing wrong with saying "Comichron reports sales of..." 

Edited September 23, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Readcomix]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The book is...relative to the time period in which it was published...actually fairly common. We can assume that Marvel printed anywhere from 100-200K Direct market copies (all of which would theoretically still exist, barring attrition) and perhaps another 20-25k copies for the newsstand...very, very, VERY loosely extrapolated from what we know about the Amazing Spiderman SOO from 2011.

We do know that the book...separate from what was sold at the initial distribution period...was issued in "multi packs", which means a not-insubstantial portion of whatever they printed was not initially distributed.

 

 

Agreed; I'm extrapolating similarly and working from those same general assumptions. I think the character has the potential to have similar demand to characters who have debuted in books that likely exist in as great or greater quantities, which is why I like it in the long run. I just think it's a case where demand has potential to further outstrip a decent supply. As a $100 range NM raw, I suppose it's already doing that to some degree. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 hours ago, 500Club said:

The record is broken because people keep playing the same  song.

Comichron  numbers are not synonymous with accurate print run data.   Stop pushing that selection on the jukebox.

This. 

[paul747]

50 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

1. There's a difference between an "argument" and "arguing." They mean different things. 

2. Your response is not measured, rational, or reasonable. As an example, I did not post a picture of a "broken record" in response to your comment to someone else. You did to me. Yet, you claim I "goated" you...? You did precisely what you accuse me of doing. I could say much more, but it's not tolerated.

3. It is important for everyone to understand things properly. As @500Club stated, continuing to repeat wrong information confuses people who don't know better. 

Take care.

STOP, you want my number you can say whatever you want bro.

Edited September 23, 2019 by paul747

[paul747]

43 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Yes. People do not understand it's like a guideline type of thing, because the people who repeat misinformation don't say "this is a guideline type of thing." Surely you're aware that there are new people reading this board on a daily basis, who don't know these things...right?

Why are people willing to accept the garbage of stating things that aren't true, correct, accurate?

There's nothing wrong with saying "Comichron reports sales of..." 

JohnJacksonMiller-migratio

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Posted March 2, 2012

Note as well that the Diamond figure is probably going to be only 80-85% of the overall circulation. The drilldowns for Spider-Man, for example, include another 10,000 or so subscribers and an additional 10,000 or so copies sold on newsstands.

 

 This is a reasonable quote. from someone that's in touch with the business.   i would bet many print runs are not much over 20 percent of final order cutoff. just a guess sue me !

[paul747]

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Who said it was a "shot in the dark system" (whatever that means)...? Who said it "couldn't be speculated on"...? 

No one.

But "they do print off of the final order number"...ok. How? What is their "system"? Got any documentation? How do the Comichron numbers...which report only a MONTH BY MONTH sales tally (that is, if they sell more copies on the SECOND month, it's not reported in the sales numbers for the FIRST)...determine what the publisher decided to print...? How do you account for the massive sales that the publishers have of unsold copies from time to time, months after publication, and how do those unsold copies relate to the supposed "print run"...? And what about the sales of these copies outside of North America, where there is a not-insubstantial market for English language American comics...?

It's a bad argument. No one but the publishers and their printers know how many copies they print. Citing Comichron's SALES numbers and correlating them to PRINT runs makes as much sense as estimating the number of cars Ford makes in a model year by the number of sales of those cars in North America.

There's nothing wrong with estimating. But we ought to use the correct terminology and caveats to do so. Where is the controversy in that? When you don't, you confuse people who don't know better.

You responded to this! this was not about you. the broken record is straight facts !

[RockMyAmadeus]

24 minutes ago, paul747 said:

JohnJacksonMiller-migratio

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Posted March 2, 2012

Note as well that the Diamond figure is probably going to be only 80-85% of the overall circulation. The drilldowns for Spider-Man, for example, include another 10,000 or so subscribers and an additional 10,000 or so copies sold on newsstands.

 

 This is a reasonable quote. from someone that's in touch with the business.   i would bet many print runs are not much over 20 percent of final order cutoff. just a guess sue me !

No one is disagreeing with this, because it's not the issue. 

The issue is saying "According to Comichron, the print run is...."

John Jackson Miller states, clearly and unequivocally, that what he records, and what Diamond reports, are North American sales numbers. The words "sales", "sales estimates", and "North American sales" are prominently featured all over the web site.

If you would like to have a reasonable discussion,, without all the emotionally charged language, I am more than happy to have that discussion with you. But your angry posts because you're offended at a simple comment I made to someone else are a direct violation of this board's terms of use, and unwelcome.

[RockMyAmadeus]

27 minutes ago, paul747 said:

5 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Who said it was a "shot in the dark system" (whatever that means)...? Who said it "couldn't be speculated on"...? 

No one.

But "they do print off of the final order number"...ok. How? What is their "system"? Got any documentation? How do the Comichron numbers...which report only a MONTH BY MONTH sales tally (that is, if they sell more copies on the SECOND month, it's not reported in the sales numbers for the FIRST)...determine what the publisher decided to print...? How do you account for the massive sales that the publishers have of unsold copies from time to time, months after publication, and how do those unsold copies relate to the supposed "print run"...? And what about the sales of these copies outside of North America, where there is a not-insubstantial market for English language American comics...?

It's a bad argument. No one but the publishers and their printers know how many copies they print. Citing Comichron's SALES numbers and correlating them to PRINT runs makes as much sense as estimating the number of cars Ford makes in a model year by the number of sales of those cars in North America.

There's nothing wrong with estimating. But we ought to use the correct terminology and caveats to do so. Where is the controversy in that? When you don't, you confuse people who don't know better.

You responded to this! this was not about you. the broken record is straight facts !

I responded to @Readcomix...not you. Nobody said this was "about me." As @500Club and others have said, your comments are inappropriate and inaccurate.

[Jaydogrules]

39 minutes ago, paul747 said:

JohnJacksonMiller-migratio

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Posted March 2, 2012

Note as well that the Diamond figure is probably going to be only 80-85% of the overall circulation. The drilldowns for Spider-Man, for example, include another 10,000 or so subscribers and an additional 10,000 or so copies sold on newsstands.

 

 This is a reasonable quote. from someone that's in touch with the business.   i would bet many print runs are not much over 20 percent of final order cutoff.[.b] just a guess sue me !

Actually, publishers have been printing to 5% or even less over actual orders for some time now, so yes, using Comichron as an estimate of print runs is both reasonable and valid.

-J.

[Awax]

[steveinthecity]

20 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Actually, publishers have been printing to 5% or even less over actual orders for some time now, so yes, using Comichron as an estimate of print runs is both reasonable and valid.

-J.

Just curious where the 5% number comes from?  I've been wondering about certain print runs(particularly Archie) for several years now.  Mostly to better understand the smaller publishers business models and how to best guesstimate total copies printed vs. sell through.