Moderns that are heating up on ebay!
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On 4/20/2019 at 12:24 PM, fastballspecial said:

Whats the misinformation? Those sites have a financial stake in the investment of the site and to monotonize it. 
I am not talking about small Facebook groups I belong to several of those as well.

Does the site charge money for services? Do they promote books
that sellers are selling that advertise within their site? Do they charge those sellers or will they in the future? Do
they charge for their services? Those are pretty basic questions. And before your say sure CGC is one of them.

I don't hate the sites I use them just like you. The difference is I harbor no disbelief that the sites don't have a conflict
of interest when listing or discussing some books. There have been repeated examples. To think otherwise is just naïve.  
We can continue to discuss this, but if you are looking from some ax that I have to grind there isn't one. I just don't
believe for one minute they are there to benefit me as the user as their business plan.

 

If you are talking about Key Collect then say that. If you are talking about the former G+ groups or Facebook, no, they do not have any financial interest. If they have a website they have to put out good information to get the clicks they want to monetize it. If they don't put out good info. people will stop visiting them.

How are you supposed to discuss market changes without being accused of impropriety?

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33 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

I understand that was probably what his post was about, but it was not mentioned. Why not call it out if that was it?

Yes, I've made some great friends from other sites/groups. It's more of a community and people don't hide behind an avatar. In all my years on here I've only ever met one person from this board.

You better be talking about me or my feelings are going to be hurt. lol

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Posted (edited)

Clearly, it's easier to paint with a broad brush than to challenge a specific site, group, entity, etc., it's also perceived as more polite.  I don't know, I tend to think we do a disservice by not specifically explaining why certain kinds of speculation/information is ill conceived and then at other times our community embraces certain content producers that have little to no substance whatsoever. That being said, for whatever reason, there are a lot of vicious attitudes and mean spirited comments that get tossed around.  Saturday night, I was talking to Mel V. from the cast of the Unpressable Defects and Comics Heating Up (I think that basically makes him the equivalent of a WWF masked villain on the CGC Boards)  and remarked that "if people talked the way they talked about one another and even to one another on the boards, mewe, FB, etc. in person - they'd be lucky if they got punched in the mouth." 

I appreciate that the trolling and cult of negativity is an internet phenomenon generally, but I'm afraid it is particularly ugly in our collector community.  I understand that when money and feelings get involved sometimes people show their a** and not their face, but I really think that the long timers on the boards should do a better job of championing civility and collegiality than we do. 

I remember when I started collecting again, a maybe nine months ago, there was a post on the CBSI boards that was like "what are some good speculation/investment opportunities?"  And I responded and provided two books that I was buying non-stop.  The first was Umbrella Academy and I'm still not done buying the second one so I'll keep that one to myself for the time being.  My reason that I articulated for buying Umbrella Academy were pretty straight forward.  I explained that Netflix is seasoned at making comic book related TV thanks to the marvel projects and comic book fans already go to Netflix for comic book related properties.  I also liked Umbrella Academy because it had cross over appeal from mainstream fans of My Chemical Romance and thought that there was an opportunity to get in and get out and make some money and hedge the bet.  I don't need to tell anyone how that spec worked out.  Suffice to say, I got NOTHING but negative replies. 

I'm not a real sensitive cat, so it wasn't any skin off my back, but this is the kind of strange knee jerk reactions people have to a lot of the spec stuff that's out there.  I'm as guilty as any one else.  Don't get me wrong. I'll hear some one talking about a book or read an article and by initial reaction is generally, "that's trash."  But I think it's just as important to reserve our negative judgments as it is to refrain from running and buying copies of Action 1002.  I guess, my point is that perhaps the goal should be to improve the quality of dialogue about comic book speculation and if we make that our aim, we'll always be doing justice to the hobby we all love. My 2c  

Edited by Nico Esq

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On 4/19/2019 at 4:07 PM, williamblood said:

sorry not him, but it is who i saw talk about this first.

Rats, I was gonna ask if you would "unblock me" from the FACTS facebook pages.   I feel so rejected. :roflmao:

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23 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Speculation nearly destroyed the entire comic book industry in the 90s.

No, that is not hyperbole. People lost their businesses, their homes, their families, and in some cases, their lives. 

Marvel Comics came within a single judgment of ceasing publication in December of 1997.

This is not a negative comment to or about you. But if the majority of the speculation people don't know this...and they don't...then they're going to get these negative comments, and not understand why. Until and unless the speculators learn their history and be sensitive to that fact, it will continue.

If you want to know why there's such a negative reaction to speculation...that's the answer.

It was speculation by people not in the hobby. People coming in off the street buying a case of Superman #75. People looking to make a quick buck. Do you really think that will ever stop?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

It was speculation by people not in the hobby. People coming in off the street buying a case of Superman #75. People looking to make a quick buck. Do you really think that will ever stop?

Speculation was not confined to people "not in the hobby." Not even remotely. It was the people "in the hobby" who did the most damage, by far. It is completely inaccurate to say that the fault lay with "speculation by people not in the hobby." Nobody came in off the street and bought a case of Superman #75 (that wasn't possible.) Superman #75 didn't nearly kill the industry. Adventures of Superman #500 and its ilk DID.

Speculation then is the exact same thing as speculation today. Will it stop? Of course not. I am merely providing context for why there is negativity. Maybe...just maybe...if the speculation crowd understood this, they'd be more sensitive to it. And, perhaps, some people will be convinced to stop speculating.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Speculation was not confined to people "not in the hobby." Not even remotely. It was the people "in the hobby" who did the most damage, by far. It is completely inaccurate to say that speculation was "by people not in the hobby." Nobody came in off the street and bought a case of Superman #75 (that wasn't possible.) Superman #75 didn't nearly kill the industry. Adventures of Superman #500 and its ilk DID.

Speculation then is the exact same thing as speculation today. Will it stop? Of course not. I am merely providing context for why there is negativity. Maybe...just maybe...if the speculation crowd understood this, they'd be more sensitive to it. And, perhaps, some people will be convinced to stop speculating.

So they guy who didn't know anything about comics at the garage sale I went to may mis-remembered how he came across a case of Superman #75? Yea, let's go with that.
It's strictly about money. People don't care to listen to what you have to say when money is flowing in. The only thing that will drive them out is when that stops happening.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Speculation nearly destroyed the entire comic book industry in the 90s.

No, that is not hyperbole. People lost their businesses, their homes, their families, and in some cases, their lives. 

Marvel Comics came within a single judgment of ceasing publication in December of 1997.

This is not a negative comment to or about you. But if the majority of the speculation people don't know this...and they don't...then they're going to get these negative comments, and not understand why. Until and unless the speculators learn their history and be sensitive to that fact, it will continue.

If you want to know why there's such a negative reaction to speculation...that's the answer.

I was buying comics from Capital City and then Diamond in the 90s and certainly appreciate the reality of what happened then, the similarities to the current market, etc.  However, my analysis on speculation is different.  I think almost all retailers are comic book speculators.  Some are essentially Diamond franchisees (whether they know it or not) that basically distribute what's in the Diamond catalog and I don't know how they stay open.  I assume "not so long" and that they evolve or they don't.  The remainder of comic book retailers are speculators.  Retailers that bad mouth "flipping" and "speculators" are Cry babies (a) because those are the customers that actually spend the most money; (b) cry babies, who are butthurt that they can't keep up with their inventory; (c) don't really want to sell comics, they want to have museums to their own collection and call it a retail store; (d) self loathing; and/or (e) jealous that consumers are doing what they do and sometimes doing it better. 

That being said, I think the vast, vast majority of seasoned speculators go out of there way to support their local comic shop, appreciate that the LCS is the heart of the comic book industry, would rather spend money at a LCS than get their own Diamond account, DCBS account, etc., will even sometimes over pay to help out a struggling LCS.  I support two local comic shops.  I have pull lists for trash books at each, I buy my supplies there, I sometimes overpay on books because I know I can move them and recoup my money to help one of the owners who who is not that good at what he does (he borders on the kind of insanity I described above about the LCS owner who hates "speculators", but he does the best he can with what he has).  I think some of us are just a lot better at this (because of experience and various other factors). 

Again, I talked to Mel about this single idea: in the speculation community there are sheep and there are wolves and I much like Jules in Pulp Fiction - I'm trying real hard to be a shepherd.  I think that is the message we should push when it comes to speculating on comics.    

tumblr_n3xpu8KNF11tyqfa9o6_400.gif

Edited by Nico Esq

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1 minute ago, ygogolak said:

So they guy who didn't know anything about comics at the garage sale I went to may mis-remembered how he came across a case of Superman #75? Yea, let's go with that.

How did he "come across" said case...? Do you know? Or are you just assuming he walked in "off the street" as someone who "didn't know anything about comics" and bought a case of Superman #75 brand new...?

You need to understand how and why such a situation would be possible in order to come to any meaningful conclusion about it.

4 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

It's strictly about money. People don't care to listen to what you have to say when money is flowing in. The only thing that will drive them out is when that stops happening.

First, I'm not nearly as cynical as you. Second, you need to understand what I said, and why I said it: the issue was the negativity, and why it exists, not whether or not speculation can be stopped. You're arguing against a point that no one made.

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1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

How did he "come across" said case...? Do you know? Or are you just assuming he walked in "off the street" as someone who "didn't know anything about comics" and bought a case of Superman #75 brand new...?

You need to understand how and why such a situation would be possible in order to come to any meaningful conclusion about it.

First, I'm not nearly as cynical as you. Second, you need to understand what I said, and why I said it: the issue was the negativity, and why it exists, not whether or not speculation can be stopped. You're arguing against a point that no one made.

He told me he ordered a case from a shop. Then he showed them to me.

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4 minutes ago, Nico Esq said:

I was buying comics from Capital City and then Diamond in the 90s

Wait, how old are you? That picture that 1Cool posted of you, you didn't look older than 30...

6 minutes ago, Nico Esq said:

I think almost all retailers are comic book speculators.  Some are essentially Diamond franchisees (whether they know it or not) that basically distribute what's in the Diamond catalog and I don't know how they stay open.  I assume "not so long" and that they evolve or they don't.  The remainder of comic book retailers are speculators.  Retailers that bad mouth "flipping" and "speculators" are (a) , because those are the customers that actually spend the most money; (b) cry babies, who are butthurt that they can't keep up with their inventory; (c) don't really want to sell comics, they want to have museums to their own collection and call it a retail store; (d) self loathing; and/or (e) jealous that consumers are doing what they do and sometimes doing it better.  That being said, I think the vast, vast majority of seasoned speculators go out of there way to support their local comic shop, appreciate that the LCS is the heart of the comic book industry, would rather spend money at a LCS than get their own Diamond account, DCBS account, etc., will even sometimes over pay to help out a struggling LCS.  I support two local comic shops.  I have pull lists for trash books at each, I buy my supplies there, I sometimes overpay on books because I know I can move them and recoup my money to help one of the owners who who is not that good at what he does (he borders on the kind of insanity I described above about the LCS owner who hates "speculators", but he does the best he can with what he has.  I think some of us are just a lot better at this (because of experience and various other factors). 

I don't disagree with much of this, in principle, and it's a good insight into the retailer perspective...but I'm talking about the entire industry as a whole, which we've discussed at length before. It's the readership that keeps the industry alive at all; without readers, publication ends (regardless of format.) It's why pulp magazines aren't published any more: people stopped reading them. Readers have to have access to books, and if it become difficult because of the presence of speculators, hovering over the rack and sucking up copies that could go to readers....that's where you run into the problem. 

And just so we're all clear, it's new issues I'm referring to, not back issues. I think people should speculate the hell out of back issues. By then, everyone's had their fair shot at obtaining the material. But new issues are the lifeblood of the entire industry, and without the new...the old can't hang on (see: stamps, Beanie Babies, Hummel figurines, everything made by the Franklin Mint.) It's vital to preserve, nurture, and grow the new issue market. 

And local stores that can't compete have no business hogging space in the retail market.

 

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6 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

He told me he ordered a case from a shop. Then he showed them to me.

He knew nothing about comics, but he knew enough to ORDER a case...two months before publication, before Man of Steel #18 was out, before there was any mainstream press about it...of Superman #75...from a shop...even though he knew nothing about comics?

You can see the huge, gaping hole in this story, right...?

I have a case of Superman #75, too. Guess when I bought them? (Hint...a longgggg time after they were published.)

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1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

He knew nothing about comics, but he knew enough to ORDER a case...two months before publication, before Man of Steel #18 was out, before there was any mainstream press about it...of Superman #75...from a shop...even though he knew nothing about comics?

You can see the huge, gaping hole in this story, right...?

I have a case of Superman #75, too. Guess when I bought them? (Hint...a longgggg time after they were published.)

I never said it was first print. It was the 4th print.

1 minute ago, FlyingDonut said:

That's 100% on you. I've met 50 or so people from this board. If you think this is not a community, I don't know what to tell you.

My bad, I've actually talked to you before. Count is up to 3 now.

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1 minute ago, ygogolak said:

I never said it was first print. It was the 4th print.

My bad, I've actually talked to you before. Count is up to 3 now.

I'm so incredibly hurt, in my soul, that you didn't count me.  lol

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Again: Superman #75 was never the issue. DC sold out. The book was sold out in less than a day, nationwide. They reprinted the book 3 more times in the span of a month or two. The demand was there. If you got more than one copy of Superman #75 as a consumer when it came out, you were very, very, VERY lucky. It was, and remains, a unique event in the history of comics.

It was what came after that was the problem: people DID order cases of AOS #500 and Turok #1 and Superman #78 and Man of Steel #22 and Action #687. and AOS #501, and Ninjak #1, and Batman #500, utterly failing to realize that Superman #75 was a once-in-a-lifetime event, a perfect storm of consequences, never to be repeated. There was no market for those other books. People foolishly got stuck with cases of books no one wanted. And that pileup was the tipping point: it was all downhill after that.

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11 minutes ago, ygogolak said:

He told me he ordered a case from a shop. Then he showed them to me.

If someone told you he ordered a case of Superman 75s from a comic shop in 1992, he's lying. There's no other way to say it. That is, without question, a lie. There was no speculation on Superman 75 before the book came out because nobody knew what was happening. That was the reason why Superman 75 was insane.

He may have (1) a case of Superman 500s - like many many many other people - or (2) he may have bought a case of Superman 75s after the crash, which was very possible. If he had a case of Superman 75s on November 18, 1992, he had $20,000 in his pocket. If he had a case of Superman 75s on November 17, 1995, he had $200 in his pocket..

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5 minutes ago, ygogolak said:
7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

He knew nothing about comics, but he knew enough to ORDER a case...two months before publication, before Man of Steel #18 was out, before there was any mainstream press about it...of Superman #75...from a shop...even though he knew nothing about comics?

You can see the huge, gaping hole in this story, right...?

I have a case of Superman #75, too. Guess when I bought them? (Hint...a longgggg time after they were published.)

I never said it was first print. It was the 4th print.

:facepalm:

You got me, gogo. I fell for it. Good play. lol

 

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1 minute ago, FlyingDonut said:

If someone told you he ordered a case of Superman 75s from a comic shop in 1992, he's lying. There's no other way to say it. That is, without question, a lie. There was no speculation on Superman 75 before the book came out because nobody knew what was happening. That was the reason why Superman 75 was insane.

He may have (1) a case of Superman 500s - like many many many other people - or (2) he may have bought a case of Superman 75s after the crash, which was very possible. If he had a case of Superman 75s on November 18, 1992, he had $20,000 in his pocket. If he had a case of Superman 75s on November 17, 1995, he had $200 in his pocket..

See my previous statement. I never said it was 1st print.

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