How many "small defects" can a 9.8 have?
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I was looking through some older post and saw that it was mentioned that 9.8 does not mean no defects, but small defects. I am curious as to how many small defects is one small defect too many?

 

Also, if anyone can post pictures of books that you think are right on the boarder of being 9.8 or not, please do. Since that would help train my eye for what to look for.

 

Thanks.

Edited by Open

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This was some advice that Etanick gave me a few weeks ago I don't think he will mind me reposting it:

 

"Here are my quick "rules" for 9.2 to 9.6 books as far as spine ticks.

 

if all else is flawless like razor sharp corners and edges.

 

spine ticks measure in 1/16" or so in size and they all break colors.

 

2 is allowable for 9.6

4 is allowable for 9.4

6 is allowable for 9.2

 

since size matter, it there is just one 1/2" cb crease by the spine then 9.4 max.

 

Yes, this is my own way to grade...no idea how CGC determines the grade.

 

I applied the rule above whenever I sub 9.2 to 9.8 books and got great results. often when I am wrong, it is on the low side. For example, I have had 9.6 with 3 to 4 spine ticks so the rules I created for myself is actually conservative."

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That doesn't help with 9.8 but it gives you some indication of what is acceptable for <9.8

Edited by The-Collector

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A 9.8 can have a spine tick but it has to be one that you can't see unless you reflect light off the surface at the right angle AND it can't break color.

If it breaks color, 99.9% of the time it won't get 9.8.

 

If the book is flawless and has extremely tiny bindery tears at the top and/or bottom of the spine, it can still squeak out a 9.8.

 

A 9.8 is nearly flawless. It can have a flaw or two but they have to be tiny, and by tiny I mean TINY.

 

Learning how to pick out 9.8's with regularity take a lot of painful submissions.

 

 

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agreed. Still don't know how they determine a 9.9 from a 10

A 9.8 can have a spine tick but it has to be one that you can't see unless you reflect light off the surface at the right angle AND it can't break color.

If it breaks color, 99.9% of the time it won't get 9.8.

 

If the book is flawless and has extremely tiny bindery tears at the top and/or bottom of the spine, it can still squeak out a 9.8.

 

A 9.8 is nearly flawless. It can have a flaw or two but they have to be tiny, and by tiny I mean TINY.

 

Learning how to pick out 9.8's with regularity take a lot of painful submissions.

 

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On modern blue label submissions I am usually pretty anal and try not to miss any details. If i find the tiniest flaw then I wont submit it. So far my results have great. I use a tactical led light since it's white and bright as hell; and check every inch at an angle as well with it. I also seem to get better results from covers with a lot of white or lighter colors as well.

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I was looking through some older post and saw that it was mentioned that 9.8 does not mean no defects, but small defects. I am curious as to how many small defects is one small defect too many?

 

Also, if anyone can post pictures of books that you think are right on the boarder of being 9.8 or not, please do. Since that would help train my eye for what to look for.

 

Thanks.

 

This is something I've posted before on the subject.

 

 

 

CGC has not printed their grading criteria anywhere but this is the closest thing I have seen to it. I've posted this chart many times. It comes from the Overstreet Grading Guide. I find it invaluable in learning how to grade comics.

 

Where'd you get that info from Roy? I've never heard that before. And really, that TKJ has 99% of the spine on the front cover at the bottom, I wouldn't have thought that would be allowed in 9.8 if they took miswrap into consideration.

 

Part of it is from me reverse engineering CGC's grading standards through 1000's of submissions, some of it from conversations with CGC employees and some of it from reading the Overstreet grading guide (2nd edition).

 

In the grading guide there is a chart and a graph that shows how many defects and what size of defects are allowed in grade.

 

If you look at the graph, it shows that you are allowed 1 "larger" or 2 "smaller" defects in NM/M grade of 1/16" - 1/8" in size. I took that to mean that you can have two 1/16" or one 1/8" defect on an otherwise perfect book and the book will grade a 9.8.

 

That would include a miswrap of up to roughly 1/8"

 

A miswrap larger than 1/8" to 1/4" would drop it to the 9.6 range.

 

If you look at 9.9, you'll note that only one defect of 1/16" in size is allowed on an otherwise perfect book...so a perfect book with a 1/16" miswrap would drop the book into a 9.9 grade.

 

A perfect book with no miswrap would not drop the grade.

 

GradingScale1.jpg

 

GradingScale2.jpg

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What would be the number one defect (or more) that would prevent a 9.8 for a modern? I've seen a lot of books with a small tear on the top of the spine that looked like it happened during the manufacturing process. Just curious as to what to look for other than the obvious defects (like large creases and spine ticks)? Scuffing? Cover indents? And thanks for the post Roy.

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While we're at...does it include "a bad print run?" Inquiring minds want to know from the one's that possess the 9.8 calibrated eyeball.

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I'd say that if you don't feel comfortable grading a raw book a 9.8, if you can see a defect it's not a 9.8.

 

 

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I'd say that if you don't feel comfortable grading a raw book a 9.8, if you can see a defect it's not a 9.8.

 

This is what I originally thought. However, with the handful of cgc book I have seen and those that I now own. I have noticed slight defects (usually more then one) in just about all 9.8 books. If you consider that I am new to the hobby and as such you would think that I would be less likely to notice these things. So either I discovered a hidden talent or I don't understand how high grading works (my guess is for the later)

Edited by Open

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I was looking through some older post and saw that it was mentioned that 9.8 does not mean no defects, but small defects. I am curious as to how many small defects is one small defect too many?

 

Also, if anyone can post pictures of books that you think are right on the boarder of being 9.8 or not, please do. Since that would help train my eye for what to look for.

 

Thanks.

 

This is something I've posted before on the subject.

 

 

 

CGC has not printed their grading criteria anywhere but this is the closest thing I have seen to it. I've posted this chart many times. It comes from the Overstreet Grading Guide. I find it invaluable in learning how to grade comics.

 

Where'd you get that info from Roy? I've never heard that before. And really, that TKJ has 99% of the spine on the front cover at the bottom, I wouldn't have thought that would be allowed in 9.8 if they took miswrap into consideration.

 

Part of it is from me reverse engineering CGC's grading standards through 1000's of submissions, some of it from conversations with CGC employees and some of it from reading the Overstreet grading guide (2nd edition).

 

In the grading guide there is a chart and a graph that shows how many defects and what size of defects are allowed in grade.

 

If you look at the graph, it shows that you are allowed 1 "larger" or 2 "smaller" defects in NM/M grade of 1/16" - 1/8" in size. I took that to mean that you can have two 1/16" or one 1/8" defect on an otherwise perfect book and the book will grade a 9.8.

 

That would include a miswrap of up to roughly 1/8"

 

A miswrap larger than 1/8" to 1/4" would drop it to the 9.6 range.

 

If you look at 9.9, you'll note that only one defect of 1/16" in size is allowed on an otherwise perfect book...so a perfect book with a 1/16" miswrap would drop the book into a 9.9 grade.

 

A perfect book with no miswrap would not drop the grade.

 

GradingScale1.jpg

 

GradingScale2.jpg

Thank you Vintage, I remember reading this in one of your post. It was very helpful, but from what I have seen (in my limited experience) there are high graded books (NM/M) that have more than the 1 large and or 2 small defects. (shrug)

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I'd say that if you don't feel comfortable grading a raw book a 9.8, if you can see a defect it's not a 9.8.

 

This is what I originally thought. However, with the handful of cgc book I have seen and those that I now own. I have noticed slight defects (usualy more then one) in just about all 9.8 books. If you consider that I am new to the hobby, you would think that I would be less likely to notice these things. So either I discovered a hidden talent or I don't understand how high grading works (my guess is for the later)

 

Maybe you should apply for a job with CGC as a grader! lol

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I'd say that if you don't feel comfortable grading a raw book a 9.8, if you can see a defect it's not a 9.8.

 

This is what I originally thought. However, with the handful of cgc book I have seen and those that I now own. I have noticed slight defects (usualy more then one) in just about all 9.8 books. If you consider that I am new to the hobby, you would think that I would be less likely to notice these things. So either I discovered a hidden talent or I don't understand how high grading works (my guess is for the later)

 

Maybe you should apply for a job with CGC as a grader! lol

There not too far from me. Maybe its all the cgc waste they pour into my drinking water...

Edited by Open

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On modern blue label submissions I am usually pretty anal and try not to miss any details. If i find the tiniest flaw then I wont submit it. So far my results have great. I use a tactical led light since it's white and bright as hell; and check every inch at an angle as well with it. I also seem to get better results from covers with a lot of white or lighter colors as well.
I like the tactical LED too, it shows every flaw and I imagine that CGC examines the book under similar lighting.

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I'd say that if you don't feel comfortable grading a raw book a 9.8, if you can see a defect it's not a 9.8.

 

This is what I originally thought. However, with the handful of cgc book I have seen and those that I now own. I have noticed slight defects (usually more then one) in just about all 9.8 books. If you consider that I am new to the hobby and as such you would think that I would be less likely to notice these things. So either I discovered a hidden talent or I don't understand how high grading works (my guess is for the later)

 

Thank you Vintage, I remember reading this in one of your post. It was very helpful, but from what I have seen (in my limited experience) there are high graded books (NM/M) that have more than the 1 large and or 2 small defects. (shrug)

 

The size of the defects is relative to what is considered "normal" for a new comic.

 

You have to remember that comics were not printed to be "perfect 10's". They were printed as throwaway children's books. Some defects you can not get away from.

 

For example, when a staple pierces a book there is a little fluff/tearing/creasing involved as the staple pushes through the paper.

 

How much of that fluff/tearing/creasing involved is going to be relative to all the other books out there.

 

We generally know what a properly stapled book should look like based on that. Deviance from what is considered "normal" is going to eventually detract from the grade.

 

For example, you could take a CGC 10.0 and find huge defects if you look at it through a microscope. So stuff like chips, bindery rips, creases, etc are all going to be relative in size.

 

If I had to explain it in detail, what you're really looking for on a 9.8 candidate is no glaring defects on the book when you look at it through roughly 20/20 vision at a reasonable half-arm's length under ample lighting.

 

If you look hard and close enough you will always find a defect a book.

 

The key is to tune into what CGC is looking for. Those that don't know what CGC is looking for may as well try to eliminate all defects.

 

Does that make sense?

 

 

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What throws me off is production defects. I hear often that CGC doesn't down grade for these unless they are severe.

 

The question that I keep wondering about is the bindary tears at the corners of the spine. If a modern book is perfect but for those tears will CGC give a 10, 9.8 or lower if the tears are worse than usual. I don't think I have seen one modern that didnt have at least one corner with that defect.

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I'd say that if you don't feel comfortable grading a raw book a 9.8, if you can see a defect it's not a 9.8.

 

This is what I originally thought. However, with the handful of cgc book I have seen and those that I now own. I have noticed slight defects (usually more then one) in just about all 9.8 books. If you consider that I am new to the hobby and as such you would think that I would be less likely to notice these things. So either I discovered a hidden talent or I don't understand how high grading works (my guess is for the later)

 

Thank you Vintage, I remember reading this in one of your post. It was very helpful, but from what I have seen (in my limited experience) there are high graded books (NM/M) that have more than the 1 large and or 2 small defects. (shrug)

 

The size of the defects is relative to what is considered "normal" for a new comic.

 

You have to remember that comics were not printed to be "perfect 10's". They were printed as throwaway children's books. Some defects you can not get away from.

 

For example, when a staple pierces a book there is a little fluff/tearing/creasing involved as the staple pushes through the paper.

 

How much of that fluff/tearing/creasing involved is going to be relative to all the other books out there.

 

We generally know what a properly stapled book should look like based on that. Deviance from what is considered "normal" is going to eventually detract from the grade.

 

For example, you could take a CGC 10.0 and find huge defects if you look at it through a microscope. So stuff like chips, bindery rips, creases, etc are all going to be relative in size.

 

If I had to explain it in detail, what you're really looking for on a 9.8 candidate is no glaring defects on the book when you look at it through roughly 20/20 vision at a reasonable half-arm's length under ample lighting.

 

If you look hard and close enough you will always find a defect a book.

 

The key is to tune into what CGC is looking for. Those that don't know what CGC is looking for may as well try to eliminate all defects.

 

Does that make sense?

 

absolutely. No book Is perfect, and a lot depends on how obvious the flaws are. There's no real concrete formula for figuring out which books should probably be 9.8's because all books are different. An example would be NM98 and pressman xmen 303. A small color breaking spine stress will glow like a spotlight on the 303 because of the monotoned gold color scheme, causing a more likely drop in grade whereas the NM spine is extremely busy, and tiny stresses are nowhere near as obvious. For this reason, I've seen many 9.8's with a couple of very small stresses on the said books with a more cluttered spine pattern. They're also easy on bindery defects. Corners are murder. Good luck getting a 9.8 with a blunted corner. Even a really tiny corner imperfection will probably knock it out of 9.8 range. Any tiny dents will mark you down to at least a 9.6, and this is the key reason why there are so many more 9.8's. All of those non color breaking defects will now disappear with pressing. It's simple math. The fewer defects, the better shot you have at a 9.8. I think for anyone who's unsure of their grading or are just new to the hobby, study as many 9.8's you have available to look at, and you'll probably have to sub a few, and learn the hard way like most of us did.

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