Thor 165 v FF 67 0

[akaSteveRogers]

I class FF # 67 as "1st appearance and origin of Adam Warlock, minor appearance on last page".

 

I class Thor # 165 as "1st full appearance of Adam Warlock".

 

I think that both issues have great merit and that the classification of either one shouldn't detract from the desirability of the other. Too much emphasis is put on "what is the true 1st appearance". There is room for more than one stage to the beginning of a character.

 

+1

 

[seredynskib]

Yes, that’s precisely what I meant.

The story of Thor #165-166 is average, and not particularly original. It doesn’t even seem to be the work of the two same persons which realized the awesome sequence of stories in the Fantastic Four run which encases the origin of Warlock. To me, the full 64-67 run in some way is a single story. The sense of mystery begins to thicken as the FF are approached by the kree Sentry, and then freezed in the midst of the city by Ronan the accuser. The previous issues, featuring Blastaar and the comeback of the Sandman, also helped to build up the story up to that point.

 

Speaking of FF 64-67:

 

 

I really enjoyed reading these 4 issues. They are among the best that FF has to offer and that really is saying something...

Edited January 14, 2014 by seredynskib

[jimjum12]

I class FF # 67 as "1st appearance and origin of Adam Warlock, minor appearance on last page".

 

I class Thor # 165 as "1st full appearance of Adam Warlock".

 

I think that both issues have great merit and that the classification of either one shouldn't detract from the desirability of the other. Too much emphasis is put on "what is the true 1st appearance". There is room for more than one stage to the beginning of a character.

 

+1

 

 

...... so true...... and to anyone who has actually read FF 66-67, especially in the context of the times ( Courtship of Eddy's Father, Lucille Ball Show, Batman, Family Affair , etc. was the "cutting edge" entertainment), the Beehive was VERY heady stuff..... and the briefness and up-in-the-air nature of the ending of FF67 heightened the mystery and power of the character. It was far more than a simple cameo...... GOD BLESS.....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

Edited December 21, 2013 by jimjum12

[vaillant]

I just did a price cross check of these two books and FF 67 goes for almost double what Thor 165 goes for.

 

Thor: http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=121235&lotNo=12704

 

FF: http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=121127&lotNo=12237

 

So which is the first appearance of Warlock? The collecting community seems to regard FF 67 as the first, but CGC has Thor as the first full. Which is more sought after? Will this become another Hulk 180 v 181? Ugh... I can say that FF is definitely easier to find in high grade than Thor.

 

If you can manage to read FF#66-67 (or better, FF #65-67) and Thor #165-166 and you will be able to judge for yourself.

As I never tire to explain, the Thor story is of little relevance to Warlock’s development as a character. If you have to choose, a Marvel Premiere #1 is a lot more important than Thor #165.

[sonicyouth]

 

If you can manage to read FF#66-67 (or better, FF #65-67) and Thor #165-166 and you will be able to judge for yourself.

As I never tire to explain, the Thor story is of little relevance to Warlock’s development as a character. If you have to choose, a Marvel Premiere #1 is a lot more important than Thor #165.

 

I agree that FF 65-67 is a great read, and easily Stan Lee at his best,

but how you can say Warlock (Him) is not as relavent, important or developed in Thor 165 is baffling.

 

I mean, Him only appears as a cameo in a panel or so in FF67 (still, great book )

In Thor 165, you see his potential power, going toe to toe with Thor, in what is truly a delightful read, where Warlock's powers are explored... which for the late 60's is about as developed and intriguing as a Silver age story gets.

 

Without Thor 165,

 

and the awesome issue that is Thor 166, i seriously doubt Stan Lee would have asked Jim Starlin to revamp the character in '75.

 

Its really Strange Tales 178-181 where Starlin took the character Warlock and defined/buit upon it in ways that were easier to digest than Roy Thomas, who almost killed the character with bad story and mixed fan reaction (iirc) in Marvel Premiere #1. Thomas relied on the messiah trip way too much, and this wasn't where Stan Lee wanted to go with the character.

 

 

So I argue that Thor 165-166 is actually the most important first and early appearances of Warlock (Him) by far.

 

I honestly think without those, we may have never seen Starlin's realized vision.

 

the works of Fantastic Four 64-68 are truly epic and set up a more consistant and breathable cosmic Marvel universe than the earlier Galactus/Surfer cosmic entry.

 

That body of Work (FF 45,46,48,49,64-68) basically set up the entirety of the marvel cosmic universe as we know it today.,, so im not disregarding it, I just think without Thor 165/166 there would have been no Thomas or Starlin Revamp!

 

As a cosmic character in the Marvel universe, Thor 165/166 does a tremendous job introducing Him and revealing a glimpse into his potential powers.

 

I think I'm with cgc on this one...

 

When i read Fantastic Four 66/67 I'm not reading about Adam Warlock, I'm reading about the beehive or whatever, I'm reading about the Fantastic Four!

 

when I read Thor 165/166 Im getting a complete 'superhero' story, a brief origin recap and great first battle featuring Adam Warlock and Thor!

 

that said I can see how both Fantastic Four 67 and Thor 165 are equally important.

 

One thing is true, Thor 165 has been tough to find in high grade, anything over 8.0 is virtually impossible to find.. where FF 67 is fairly common in high grade even right now,

 

 

 

 

[DavidTheDavid]

Wow, this book is already double over 12 month average GPA. Anyone else surprised? Is this the marketplace answering this thread?

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fauctions%2Fpreview%2Easp%3Fcode%3D2014jan%26pg%3D19%23Item_993844&id=993844

[vaillant]

@David: If you are referring to the Thor, it is also because it is considerably scarcer in grade

 

@sonicyouth: I might have to re-read Thor #165-166, but I don’t see much added to the character. The character was clearly developed by Roy Thomas and then by Jim Starlin (and the editors), but the whole substance of its conception is in the origin story. What does the Thor story add?

 

When you say:

 

– "Stan Lee asked Jim Starlin to revamp the character in '75" and

 

– "this wasn't where Stan Lee wanted to go with the character" (as referred to Roy Thomas)

 

where did you read this?

[gaz973]

Thor # 165/166 did develop the character of Warlock as he had barely appeared at that point. From his tiny appearance in the FF story (which I'm not trying to diminish the importance of) we knew what he was and where he came from and pretty much nothing else.

 

At that point, Warlock was nearly a blank canvas and could have been taken in nearly any direction. The Thor story wasn't very deep but it gave some direction and character that hadn't been there before.

[Lonzilla]

IMO Thor is more key than FF because of the 1st full appearance / cover, but Him was basically a throwaway character until Roy Thomas did his magic in Marvel Premiere #1. For me, MP #1 is the true 1st appearance of Adam Warlock (name, costume, soul gem; ok he didn't get named until MP #2 if you wanna nitpick)

[AGGIEZ]

IMO Thor is more key than FF because of the 1st full appearance / cover, but Him was basically a throwaway character until Roy Thomas did his magic in Marvel Premiere #1. For me, MP #1 is the true 1st appearance of Adam Warlock (name, costume, soul gem; ok he didn't get named until MP #2 if you wanna nitpick)

 

 

Ummmm, no…

 

 

[___]

I love debates like this, it's what makes the comic hobby so fun!

 

Speaking of debates:

 

What other ones are similar to this? I can't think of other marvel characters that had so many cameos (according to Cgc labels) ff66, 67, thor 163, 164, before 165.

 

Who defines what an actual cameo is? I still am a firm believer that just because it's limited to one page doesn't mean it's a cameo. A lot can happen in 4-8 panels. Now if it's a single splash page on last page with mininmal dialogue, yeah that's a cameo.

 

Hulk 180 vs 181 comparison. Does anyone have a list of other characters that there is or was a debate in true first appearance?

 

Edited January 20, 2014 by 1p36DSA

[Dr. Balls]

I've been a Warlock fan since the 90's. Even though FF 67 is Warlock in a cocoon and Thor 165 is Warlock in humanoid form - friends and I have always regarded Marvel Premiere #1 as the first true Adam Warlock as we know him, complete with Soul Gem and awesome hairdo.

 

I don't believe that either books are 'cameos' of Warlock as he is centric to the story. The cocoon and HIM are appearances of Adam Warlock, before he had a name and his concept was really loose (almost prototype-ish). Wait until they bring him into the movies (and they will) and then it will get interesting...

[Shoomanfoo]

Well 2 great books that will only pick up more steam. 

I've been tracking and can say Thor 165 sells more frequently and for a bit more. 

There is no dispute on 1st full on this and the cover appearance. 

[Hamlet]

What fascinates me is that neither of these books were really sought after 9 years ago.  I bought nice VG copies of both on the boards for $5 each.  Granted, that was a very good deal at the time, but still.  

Did everyone suddenly become big Warlock fans, or is this all potential movie hype?

I suspect it is some of each, because they are both cool books, but I'm not sure I trust the run-up to be sustainable long-term.  

Kind of like the run up for FF 45.  That book went from run book to hot key a few years ago, and has settled down at about half the peak, which seems rational.  It's an important book that was ridiculously undervalued for a long time, but it got hyped a little too much.

Of course, the peak is only obvious in hindsight.  

[Shoomanfoo]

8 minutes ago, Hamlet said:

What fascinates me is that neither of these books were really sought after 9 years ago.  I bought nice VG copies of both on the boards for $5 each.  Granted, that was a very good deal at the time, but still.  

Did everyone suddenly become big Warlock fans, or is this all potential movie hype?

I suspect it is some of each, because they are both cool books, but I'm not sure I trust the run-up to be sustainable long-term.  

Kind of like the run up for FF 45.  That book went from run book to hot key a few years ago, and has settled down at about half the peak, which seems rational.  It's an important book that was ridiculously undervalued for a long time, but it got hyped a little too much.

Of course, the peak is only obvious in hindsight.  

Very true!

The appeal of these books now is on many levels. 

The movie hype has brought attention to the classic Kirby art and a good old fashioned storyline. 

Characters evolve and seems to be the case with Warlock. 

[Shoomanfoo]

On 12/23/2013 at 3:50 AM, sonicyouth said:

 

I agree that FF 65-67 is a great read, and easily Stan Lee at his best,

but how you can say Warlock (Him) is not as relavent, important or developed in Thor 165 is baffling.

 

I mean, Him only appears as a cameo in a panel or so in FF67 (still, great book )

In Thor 165, you see his potential power, going toe to toe with Thor, in what is truly a delightful read, where Warlock's powers are explored... which for the late 60's is about as developed and intriguing as a Silver age story gets.

 

Without Thor 165,

 

and the awesome issue that is Thor 166, i seriously doubt Stan Lee would have asked Jim Starlin to revamp the character in '75.

 

Its really Strange Tales 178-181 where Starlin took the character Warlock and defined/buit upon it in ways that were easier to digest than Roy Thomas, who almost killed the character with bad story and mixed fan reaction (iirc) in Marvel Premiere #1. Thomas relied on the messiah trip way too much, and this wasn't where Stan Lee wanted to go with the character.

 

 

So I argue that Thor 165-166 is actually the most important first and early appearances of Warlock (Him) by far.

 

I honestly think without those, we may have never seen Starlin's realized vision.

 

the works of Fantastic Four 64-68 are truly epic and set up a more consistant and breathable cosmic Marvel universe than the earlier Galactus/Surfer cosmic entry.

 

That body of Work (FF 45,46,48,49,64-68) basically set up the entirety of the marvel cosmic universe as we know it today.,, so im not disregarding it, I just think without Thor 165/166 there would have been no Thomas or Starlin Revamp!

 

As a cosmic character in the Marvel universe, Thor 165/166 does a tremendous job introducing Him and revealing a glimpse into his potential powers.

 

I think I'm with cgc on this one...

 

When i read Fantastic Four 66/67 I'm not reading about Adam Warlock, I'm reading about the beehive or whatever, I'm reading about the Fantastic Four!

 

when I read Thor 165/166 Im getting a complete 'superhero' story, a brief origin recap and great first battle featuring Adam Warlock and Thor!

 

that said I can see how both Fantastic Four 67 and Thor 165 are equally important.

 

One thing is true, Thor 165 has been tough to find in high grade, anything over 8.0 is virtually impossible to find.. where FF 67 is fairly common in high grade even right now,

 

 

 

 

Alot of valid points. You hit the bases instead of just stating a broad opinion. 

Hims development and depiction as an immature man child kidnapping woman for courtship is a perfect dipiction of a man grow in a cacoon with no life experience. 

Just wait until the first meeting of Adam and the Gardians takes place... 

Thor VS. Adam! 

Just as his 1st appearance in comics. 

This is being set up already with the inclusion of Thor in the gaurdians. 

Even Disney hacks understand the significance of this meeting. 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Shoomanfoo

[Mr bla bla]

On 12/3/2012 at 7:05 AM, Mishmashman said:

I just did a price cross check of these two books and FF 67 goes for almost double what Thor 165 goes for.

 

Thor: http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=121235&lotNo=12704

 

FF: http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=121127&lotNo=12237

 

So which is the first appearance of Warlock? The collecting community seems to regard FF 67 as the first, but CGC has Thor as the first full. Which is more sought after? Will this become another Hulk 180 v 181? Ugh... I can say that FF is definitely easier to find in high grade than Thor.

 

Read the two books and that will give you a clear answer.

[SW3D]

This debate can go on forever, but I firmly believe Adam Warlock makes his first full appearance in Fantastic Four #67 (and its not a cameo).

Definition of a Cameo: "A small character part that stands out from other minor parts".

It's clear from reading FF 66 and FF 67, HIM/Warlock is the main focus of the two-part story: his role is a major role, not a minor role or cameo role; he is the impetus and very reason for the story (as told in two parts). In Part One: We have his Origin and Creation explained in FF 66 by The Enclave. In Part Two (FF 67): we explore Him/Warlock's interactions with Alicia Masters. Throughout FF 67, Him/Warlock appears in the Cocoon and telepathically communicates to Alicia Masters. From the Cocoon, HIM displays his awesome power and eventually emerges from the Cocoon in full splendor to confront his evil creators. The two-part story concludes open-ended, exactly as Stan Lee had intended, with a possibility of HIM's return in a future story. There is really no debating that this is Adam Warlock's first full appearance, as it does not satisfy the definition of a cameo since he is crucial to the entire plot.

Recap: 

FF #66: Origin of HIM; first appearance of the Enclave.

FF #67: First FULL Appearance of HIM (later becomes Adam Warlock); first appearance of The Cocoon. 

HIM's next appearance is Thor 165 and Thor 166, where he battles the goldrn Asgardian after kidnapping Sif. But there's not much to his development; it's the same character from FF 66/67. And, from my previous explanation, there is no reason to believe Thor 165 is Him/Warlock's first full appearance... that is clearly an error or misunderstanding. At best it's his 2nd appearance. Interestly, CBCS grading considers Thor 165 his third appearance overall, as they consider FF 66/67 his 1st and 2nd appearances respectively.

In Marvel Premiere #1, we see his next stage of development and this is arguably his most important stage of development where the High Evolutionary bequeaths the Soul Gem and bestows the appellation upon Him as Warlock. The newly named Warlock also crafts a costume to round-out his new superhero status. This is by far his most important key after FF #67, but it can be reasonably argued that this is when Warlock becomes Warlock, meaning it's the most vital stage of development in Warlock's history. I hold this issue as having much greater importance to the canon of Warlock than Thor 165. 

Recap: 

Marvel Premiere #1: 1st Appearance of HIM as Warlock; 1st Appearance of the Soul Stone; 1st Appearance of Warlock in Costume; Origin re-told.

Lastly...

Let's look at the CGC Registry points for each comic:

FF #66: 9.8 Universal: 2,760

FF #67: 9.8 Universal: 3,312

Thor #165: 9.8 Universal: 1,280

Marvel Premiere #1: 9.8 Universal: 1,600

So the CGC has adjusted the registry points for Adam Warlock keys in accordance with the importance of these issues as they contribute to his canon, with FF 67, FF 66, and MP 1 individually getting more points than Thor 165.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude FF 67 is the most important Adam Walock key above all. 

These are my thoughts and opinions, substantiated in part by comic sources. 

It's okay to disagree... and let's be respectful about it. 

Happy Collecting!

SW3D

 

[Mr bla bla]

4 hours ago, SW3D said:

This debate can go on forever, but I firmly believe Adam Warlock makes his first full appearance in Fantastic Four #67 (and its not a cameo).

Definition of a Cameo: "A small character part that stands out from other minor parts".

It's clear from reading FF 66 and FF 67, HIM/Warlock is the main focus of the two-part story: his role is a major role, not a minor role or cameo role; he is the impetus and very reason for the story (as told in two parts). In Part One: We have his Origin and Creation explained in FF 66 by The Enclave. In Part Two (FF 67): we explore Him/Warlock's interactions with Alicia Masters. Throughout FF 67, Him/Warlock appears in the Cocoon and telepathically communicates to Alicia Masters. From the Cocoon, HIM displays his awesome power and eventually emerges from the Cocoon in full splendor to confront his evil creators. The two-part story concludes open-ended, exactly as Stan Lee had intended, with a possibility of HIM's return in a future story. There is really no debating that this is Adam Warlock's first full appearance, as it does not satisfy the definition of a cameo since he is crucial to the entire plot.

Recap: 

FF #66: Origin of HIM; first appearance of the Enclave.

FF #67: First FULL Appearance of HIM (later becomes Adam Warlock); first appearance of The Cocoon. 

HIM's next appearance is Thor 165 and Thor 166, where he battles the goldrn Asgardian after kidnapping Sif. But there's not much to his development; it's the same character from FF 66/67. And, from my previous explanation, there is no reason to believe Thor 165 is Him/Warlock's first full appearance... that is clearly an error or misunderstanding. At best it's his 2nd appearance. Interestly, CBCS grading considers Thor 165 his third appearance overall, as they consider FF 66/67 his 1st and 2nd appearances respectively.

In Marvel Premiere #1, we see his next stage of development and this is arguably his most important stage of development where the High Evolutionary bequeaths the Soul Gem and bestows the appellation upon Him as Warlock. The newly named Warlock also crafts a costume to round-out his new superhero status. This is by far his most important key after FF #67, but it can be reasonably argued that this is when Warlock becomes Warlock, meaning it's the most vital stage of development in Warlock's history. I hold this issue as having much greater importance to the canon of Warlock than Thor 165. 

Recap: 

Marvel Premiere #1: 1st Appearance of HIM as Warlock; 1st Appearance of the Soul Stone; 1st Appearance of Warlock in Costume; Origin re-told.

Lastly...

Let's look at the CGC Registry points for each comic:

FF #66: 9.8 Universal: 2,760

FF #67: 9.8 Universal: 3,312

Thor #165: 9.8 Universal: 1,280

Marvel Premiere #1: 9.8 Universal: 1,600

So the CGC has adjusted the registry points for Adam Warlock keys in accordance with the importance of these issues as they contribute to his canon, with FF 67, FF 66, and MP 1 individually getting more points than Thor 165.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude FF 67 is the most important Adam Walock key above all. 

These are my thoughts and opinions, substantiated in part by comic sources. 

It's okay to disagree... and let's be respectful about it. 

Happy Collecting!

SW3D

 

This ... FF67

[Shoomanfoo]

On 1/17/2014 at 4:36 PM, Lonzilla said:

IMO Thor is more key than FF because of the 1st full appearance / cover, but Him was basically a throwaway character until Roy Thomas did his magic in Marvel Premiere #1. For me, MP #1 is the true 1st appearance of Adam Warlock (name, costume, soul gem; ok he didn't get named until MP #2 if you wanna nitpick)

Ummmm what???? Just speechless smh