Thor 165 v FF 67 0

[Mishmashman]

I just did a price cross check of these two books and FF 67 goes for almost double what Thor 165 goes for.

 

Thor: http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=121235&lotNo=12704

 

FF: http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=121127&lotNo=12237

 

So which is the first appearance of Warlock? The collecting community seems to regard FF 67 as the first, but CGC has Thor as the first full. Which is more sought after? Will this become another Hulk 180 v 181? Ugh... I can say that FF is definitely easier to find in high grade than Thor.

 

[budsbundy]

FF67 is the first appearance(hell, it's his origin too, how do you get more first appearance then that???)

 

And FF12 is the first hulk/thing battle IMO, I don't care what CGC has to say about either of them.

[KirbyJack]

The cover appearance will eventually win out.

 

Wolvie has a huge last page panel in Hulk #180, but 181 is a cover, so it's the 1st appearance.

Juggernaught appears only at the end of X-Men #12, but he's on the cover, so #12 it is.

 

Also, doesn't The Spectre wait until More Fun #53 to suit up? But he's on the cover of #52...not sure of that one.

 

[Tony S]

It is indeed a Hulk 180 / 181 situation.

 

Him - later called Warlock - only appears in the last page of FF 67. While in his cocoon he appears in several other pages - including one full page splash I think on page 10 of the story. But you don't see "HIM" - only the cocoon. It is indeed his origin. So it's an odd one to categorize perfectly.

 

 

Thor 165 is most certainly "Him" or Warlocks first full appearance. He's on the cover (a great cover at that - far more dramatic than FF 67) and appears throughout the story. The all black cover makes it far harder to find in high grade

 

 

Adding even further to the discussion - the very last panel of FF 66 closes with the "Coming of Him". So sort of like a "first mention" like the Mary Jane Watson character.

 

I don't think I have the energy for a debate on FF12 vs FF25 as to which is the first Hulk/Thing battle. No side is wrong here. It's a matter of what you define a battle. I think Overstreet and CGC were noting that the fight between the Thing and Hulk was an epic fight - a battle - in issue 25. Certainly a fight took place between Hulk and Thing in FF12 - as well as a fight with the rest of the FF and the Hulk. You want to call it a battle? OK. FF12 has so much going for it - is worth so much more money than 25. Why deny FF 25 has something special going on too?

 

I think of it this way. Two guys pounding away at each other in a parking lot altercation is a fight. The third and final boxing match between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier - "The Thrilla in Manila" - is a battle. That's all the distinction means in the OPG. Yes, they fought in FF 12. In FF 25 they went toe to toe, one on one, for nearly the entire book. The first of many great "Hulk vs xxx"

Edited December 3, 2012 by Tony S

[Mishmashman]

Finding Thor 165 in high grade is a chore indeed... Your copy looks beautiful, btw.

[vaillant]

I have never thought even remotely of Thor #165 as a "first" for Warlock, in any sense.

 

The FF #66-67 story is not simply an "origin": is one of the most accomplished Lee/Kirby stories, and in my opinion one of the best Fantastic Four stories ever, and it is entirely centered around Warlock and his "fathers", with Alicia playing one of the most important roles ever. The climax is built up all along the two issues, and the story is also a poignant reflection on the theme of scientific research and man’s thirst for knowledge and power, that in my opinion it can be considered, a lot more than other similar cases, a single story.

To me, it is not even comparable to Hulk #180-181, which is the first appearance of Wolverine, but the whole story is about the Wendigo, and little to nothing is revealed about him.

 

If we speak from a collecting perspective, the Thor issues may be tougher to find in grade, but I would not underestimate the FF #67, which you can find easily, but finding it with a white cover may be harder than finding the Thor in high grade.

[gaz973]

I class FF # 67 as "1st appearance and origin of Adam Warlock, minor appearance on last page".

 

I class Thor # 165 as "1st full appearance of Adam Warlock".

 

I think that both issues have great merit and that the classification of either one shouldn't detract from the desirability of the other. Too much emphasis is put on "what is the true 1st appearance". There is room for more than one stage to the beginning of a character.

[vaillant]

Yes, that’s precisely what I meant.

The story of Thor #165-166 is average, and not particularly original. It doesn’t even seem to be the work of the two same persons which realized the awesome sequence of stories in the Fantastic Four run which encases the origin of Warlock. To me, the full 64-67 run in some way is a single story. The sense of mystery begins to thicken as the FF are approached by the kree Sentry, and then freezed in the midst of the city by Ronan the accuser. The previous issues, featuring Blastaar and the comeback of the Sandman, also helped to build up the story up to that point.

 

People may be righteously fond of Galactus and Silver Surfer, but those stories are unparalled in the Lee/Kirby output, and the almost childlike fight between Thor and "Him" because of Sif is pretty dull compared to the Citadel of Science storyline.

[Tony S]

I have never thought even remotely of Thor #165 as a "first" for Warlock, in any sense.

 

The FF #66-67 story is not simply an "origin": is one of the most accomplished Lee/Kirby stories, and in my opinion one of the best Fantastic Four stories ever, and it is entirely centered around Warlock and his "fathers", with Alicia playing one of the most important roles ever. The climax is built up all along the two issues, and the story is also a poignant reflection on the theme of scientific research and man’s thirst for knowledge and power, that in my opinion it can be considered, a lot more than other similar cases, a single story.

To me, it is not even comparable to Hulk #180-181, which is the first appearance of Wolverine, but the whole story is about the Wendigo, and little to nothing is revealed about him.

 

If we speak from a collecting perspective, the Thor issues may be tougher to find in grade, but I would not underestimate the FF #67, which you can find easily, but finding it with a white cover may be harder than finding the Thor in high grade.

Except for your very first sentence, I don't disagree with anything you say above. I do see Thor 165 as Warlock's first full appearance. The last page of FF 67 is all we see of Warlock in that issue. But otherwise I agree with everything else you say.

 

As I said, it's a hard issue to nail down as far as decriptions. How many other characters have their full origin - heck even as you say the entire story much about them - that goes along with a cameo first appearance?

 

While the story in FF 67 most would agree is deeper and more complex, the cover on Thor 165 is simply gorgeous. The cover to FF 67 seems "busy".

 

If one is concerned about which book is the "true" first appearance, I suggest owning both....

 

Edited December 3, 2012 by Tony S

[Tony S]

I class FF # 67 as "1st appearance and origin of Adam Warlock, minor appearance on last page".

 

I class Thor # 165 as "1st full appearance of Adam Warlock".

 

I think that both issues have great merit and that the classification of either one shouldn't detract from the desirability of the other. Too much emphasis is put on "what is the true 1st appearance". There is room for more than one stage to the beginning of a character.

 

+1

[Juswuh]

The FF #66-67 story is not simply an "origin": is one of the most accomplished Lee/Kirby stories, and in my opinion one of the best Fantastic Four stories ever, and it is entirely centered around Warlock and his "fathers", with Alicia playing one of the most important roles ever. The climax is built up all along the two issues, and the story is also a poignant reflection on the theme of scientific research and man’s thirst for knowledge and power, that in my opinion it can be considered, a lot more than other similar cases, a single story.

 

Actually Kirby's original idea for the story was drastically altered by Stan Lee. Kirby intended the scientists of the "Beehive" to be good guys!

[rodan57]

The modifier, "full", allows dealers and fan boys* to break the book out (for different reasons) from surrounding issues.

 

* I mean this in the nicest way.

[Tony S]

The FF #66-67 story is not simply an "origin": is one of the most accomplished Lee/Kirby stories, and in my opinion one of the best Fantastic Four stories ever, and it is entirely centered around Warlock and his "fathers", with Alicia playing one of the most important roles ever. The climax is built up all along the two issues, and the story is also a poignant reflection on the theme of scientific research and man’s thirst for knowledge and power, that in my opinion it can be considered, a lot more than other similar cases, a single story.

 

Actually Kirby's original idea for the story was drastically altered by Stan Lee. Kirby intended the scientists of the "Beehive" to be good guys!

 

That is an interesting bit of comic book trivia. Thanks for sharing!

[r100comics]

 

Thor #165 all the way.

 

One of the best covers of the Silver Age and one of the toughest books to find in high grade.

[sonicyouth]

Thor #165 all the way.

 

One of the best covers of the Silver Age and one of the toughest books to find in high grade.

 

This.

 

well, I wouldn't call it the best... hehe but it is good!

 

potential marvel spoilers if you havent seen TDW!!!!::

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

possible various internet rumors that appear to be truthful are:

 

the GotG galaxy movie looks to be Ronan trying to steal the gem from Collector without audience knowing,but Ronan fails then Thanos defeats Collector/GotG final battle. Gotg/Collector will escape barely, collector (he's good guy but slightly shady since he lost his wife and kids) will mention the Enclave and what he procured from them but neither Fantastic four or Enclave is cast. Warlock is not cast either. just easter egg of his birth (but no actor) in the cocoon.

 

The Cocoon will sort of play out as a "Last Hope" for humanity and all sentient beings in the universe.

 

Thor 2 film end credits easter egg: a cocoon like thingie in Collector's room is a dead give away. The camera even focuses on the cocoon for a long while!

 

In the secret -script Ronan is Thanos son, and will be a major baddie turned good guy by the end of Avengers 3.

 

Thanos son, you say? what? well Ronan is Thanos son in Ultimate universe and Marvel Studios is utilizing Ultimate storylines blended with the classic Silver age storylines!

 

hence why you see all the copies of Fantastic four 67 and Thor 165 disappearing under the radar. folks with scripts sworn to secrecy are buying up these books!

 

its not bubble penguins, they havent arrived yet for these books!

 

We are probably going to get an epic cosmic perhaps earthbound battle of Warlock vs Thor on screen because the plot is already writing itself as Whedon envisioned. Warlock kidnaps Sif haha!!

 

 

 

Both FF 67 and Thor 165 are equally important but I think whatever CGC says is the first "FULL" appearance will always win long term!

 

those guys seem to know whats up!

Edited December 18, 2013 by sonicyouth

[SKYNET-migration]

I class FF # 67 as "1st appearance and origin of Adam Warlock, minor appearance on last page".

 

I class Thor # 165 as "1st full appearance of Adam Warlock".

 

I think that both issues have great merit and that the classification of either one shouldn't detract from the desirability of the other. Too much emphasis is put on "what is the true 1st appearance". There is room for more than one stage to the beginning of a character.

 

+1

 

Warlock also appears at Thor #164, or is that appearance still considered as a "cameo"?

[DavidTheDavid]

As a Warlock collector, I need them both regardless. Just picked up 166 recently and hoping to find 165 sooner or later.

[___]

if thor 165 didn't come almost 2 years after ff67 it would be more difficult for me but because of that ff67 wins hands down

 

this is also a discussion topic in the bronze forum

[___]

Thor #165 all the way.

 

One of the best covers of the Silver Age and one of the toughest books to find in high grade.

 

This.

 

well, I wouldn't call it the best... hehe but it is good!

 

potential marvel spoilers if you havent seen TDW!!!!::

 

 

Thanks for sharing, just gave me goose bumps reading this! As a marvel fan a dream come true if this really plays out like this in the big screen!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

possible various internet rumors that appear to be truthful are:

 

the GotG galaxy movie looks to be Ronan trying to steal the gem from Collector without audience knowing,but Ronan fails then Thanos defeats Collector/GotG final battle. Gotg/Collector will escape barely, collector (he's good guy but slightly shady since he lost his wife and kids) will mention the Enclave and what he procured from them but neither Fantastic four or Enclave is cast. Warlock is not cast either. just easter egg of his birth (but no actor) in the cocoon.

 

The Cocoon will sort of play out as a "Last Hope" for humanity and all sentient beings in the universe.

 

Thor 2 film end credits easter egg: a cocoon like thingie in Collector's room is a dead give away. The camera even focuses on the cocoon for a long while!

 

In the secret -script Ronan is Thanos son, and will be a major baddie turned good guy by the end of Avengers 3.

 

Thanos son, you say? what? well Ronan is Thanos son in Ultimate universe and Marvel Studios is utilizing Ultimate storylines blended with the classic Silver age storylines!

 

hence why you see all the copies of Fantastic four 67 and Thor 165 disappearing under the radar. folks with scripts sworn to secrecy are buying up these books!

 

its not bubble penguins, they havent arrived yet for these books!

 

We are probably going to get an epic cosmic perhaps earthbound battle of Warlock vs Thor on screen because the plot is already writing itself as Whedon envisioned. Warlock kidnaps Sif haha!!

 

 

 

Both FF 67 and Thor 165 are equally important but I think whatever CGC says is the first "FULL" appearance will always win long term!

 

those guys seem to know whats up!

[Bronx]

Great thread. Agree with every word valiant said. My opinion is FF 67 will be the more "valuable" comic. Don't underestimate the significance of the cocoon as an iconic symbol for comic book and now movie fans based on the Thor 2 Easter egg. Also agree with another commenter that any comic collector worth their salt should own both FF 67 and Thor 165 and FF 66. And make sure you read them too. Great stuff!