Bronze age comics that are heating up on eBay... 38 38

[PeterPark]

21 minutes ago, BoogieWoogie said:

Question: Do you think collectors will ever recognize and come to value the very rare early direct market? Marvel was putting out direct issues sporadically before they formalized their direct/newstand market and right now it doesn't look like these early rare directs command any sort of premium... will the new money in the market ever mature enough to care about these? The same principle that makes late newsstands valuable to some collectors applies to these early directs I think 

I just listed a book on ebay as a rare early direct edition. Some will. The newsstand craze doesn't help it though. Where did these percentages come from? It seems wild for it to be that one-sided as early as 1990. That shift is abrupt! Since these are only percentages, I'd be curious to know whether the newsstand distribution went up or down during that period. Comics were everywhere in the early 90's...but maybe there were just THAT MANY more direct market stores opening up to dwarf an otherwise dominant newsstand distribution.

It has been known for some time that early direct editions, sometimes mistaken as Marvel Whitmans, can be very scarce but, in my experience, issues that are harder to find are more ad hoc than built up through the experience of many. I also assume there are some silent (not-so-silent?) early direct hoarders here on this very board...

[BoogieWoogie]

1 minute ago, PeterPark said:

I just listed a book on ebay as a rare early direct edition. Some will. The newsstand craze doesn't help it though. Where did these percentages come from? It seems wild for it to be that one-sided as early as 1990. That shift is abrupt! Since these are only percentages, I'd be curious to know whether the newsstand distribution went up or down during that period. Comics were everywhere in the early 90's...but maybe there were just THAT MANY more direct market stores opening up to dwarf an otherwise dominant newsstand distribution.

It has been known for some time that early direct editions, sometimes mistaken as Marvel Whitmans, can be very scarce but, in my experience, issues that are harder to find are more ad hoc than built up through the experience of many. I also assume there are some silent (not-so-silent?) early direct hoarders here on this very board...

I'll announce myself now 

The chart is from a blog. I've seen enough similar ones that I just grabbed the first image in GIS that fit. I find that when I search through all listings of a given 70s issue that has a direct variant they appear to pop up well less than 10% of the time and usually aren't noted as direct copies. I have a few that I believe are 9.8 candidates that I'm going to have my presser press...

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, PeterPark said:

Where did these percentages come from?

Nowhere relevant. They are 100% pure B.S.

[Pantodude]

49 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Nowhere relevant. They are 100% pure B.S.

Aw, come on now.  You might mislead a noob hanging on your every word for guidance.  The charts are legit, as they essentially mirror the charts offered in a newsletter by milehighcomics and charts by rarecomics based on CBCS census data.   Unless that info is also BS, here's a link with those charts (you'll need to scroll at least half the way down).   https://rarecomics.wordpress.com/category/direct-edition-vs-newsstand-edition-comic-books/  All other articles on this issue say the same thing with their own charts, presumably based on the same population data.   

Edited April 16, 2021 by Pantodude

[Lazyboy]

3 minutes ago, Pantodude said:

47 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Nowhere relevant. They are 100% pure B.S.

Aw, come on now.  You might mislead a noob hanging on your every word for guidance.  The charts are legit, as they essentially mirror the charts offered in a newsletter by milehighcomics and charts by rarecomics

Like I said...

[Jeffro.]

2 hours ago, Pantodude said:

3 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Nowhere relevant. They are 100% pure B.S.

Aw, come on now.  You might mislead a noob hanging on your every word for guidance.  The charts are legit, as they essentially mirror the charts offered in a newsletter by milehighcomics and charts by rarecomics based on CBCS census data.   Unless that info is also BS, here's a link with those charts (you'll need to scroll at least half the way down).   https://rarecomics.wordpress.com/category/direct-edition-vs-newsstand-edition-comic-books/  All other articles on this issue say the same thing with their own charts, presumably based on the same population data.   

Responding to the bolded part. How do we know whether it is or is not? You repeat something enough times and enough people read it, it sometimes becomes "fact" regardless of whether it is or not. We need more critical examination of this data, not blind acceptance. Too many people just believe what they read.

[Pantodude]

36 minutes ago, Jeffro. said:

Responding to the bolded part. How do we know whether it is or is not? You repeat something enough times and enough people read it, it sometimes becomes "fact" regardless of whether it is or not. We need more critical examination of this data, not blind acceptance. Too many people just believe what they read.

I hear you.  There are posts by boardies discussing this.  But I don't doubt it, as a general proposition.  I amassed complete and almost complete runs of IH, ASM, and Iron Man years ago, thousands of raws when no one cared about this, and there were very, very few newsstand versions  (relative to direct) of these books from the late 1980s and early 1990s, particularly in high-grade, whether key or not.  I think a lot of folks on these boards can attest to their own similar experiences.   Over the years, a simple eyeball test for raw or slabs for sale on eBay or any other venue was also consistent with the relative paucity of newsstands vs directs for books issued during that timeframe.  If you have ever tried to buy an ASM238, ASM252, or ASM300 the past few years, the relative scarcity of the newsstands should have been obvious, too.  

Whether or not particular issues should cost more simply because they are newsstand, that is a different issue that likely depends on whether you are talking about a key, and may include assumptions about the relative number of surviving high-grade copies.  Anyway, it is what it is.  I'm just the messenger.   

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Pantodude

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, Pantodude said:

If you have ever tried to buy ... ASM252 ... the past few years, the relative scarcity of the newsstands should have been obvious, too.

Well, it's clear that you just blindly believe the Newsstand hype.

 

[Pantodude]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

Well, it's clear that you just blindly believe the Newsstand hype.

Oh boy.  "Blindly" despite my own observations over decades of the relative scarcity of newsstands compared to directs (in the wild or slabbed) for many, many Spidey, Hulk, and Iron Man books, but also other issues from the mid-80s to early 90s?   And then the consistent accounts here on these boards and all over the internet?  You gotta go with SOMETHING, so I went with that.  Sheesh.  At the end of the day, I really don't care.  Like I said, it is what it is, and prices are what they are for certain books.   It all makes cents, and I am ok with that so long as I can plan accordingly.     If the consensus says they are less common, I will respect them as such.  

Seriously though.  It's YOUR turn.  Enough with the conclusory remarks and pony up some articles, blogs, or charts that say otherwise?   If you're correct, that would be cool, and folks (me included) would like to know.  So don't disappoint!   I await your studious response with bated breath.   

[Pantodude]

5 hours ago, Pantodude said:

If you have ever tried to buy an ASM238, ASM252, or ASM300 the past few years, the relative scarcity of the newsstands should have been obvious, too.  

Just wanted to clarify something.  According to the charts above, ASM238 (1983) and ASM252 (1984) were actually more numerous as newsstands than direct when printed.  But common sense suggests that the comic books sold at a newsstand, by less careful staff on damage-causing spinner racks or shelves exposed to the weather, were more likely to get beat up before they were even purchased.  And then once purchased by mom's who tucked away comics w/ groceries,  or dads who tucked away comics in their briefcases on the way home from work, or kids who tucked away comics in their backpacks on the way home from school (if they even cared to tuck them away!), the comics likely suffered additional damage before even getting home.  And then at home, even more damage while they were read/handled.   Compare this to the direct comic books sold at specialty or comic book stores, which were much more likely to survive in high grade.  Direct versions were sold by comic book enthusiasts to comic book enthusiasts, who likely carefully packaged their books before leaving the store and then bagged and boarded their books at home.  This is why the consensus is that, even for the newsstands printed in the early to mid-1980s, the survivability of newsstands in high grade was much, much lower than directs.  

So while the better examples of relatively uncommon high grade books are ASM300 (1988) and ASM375 (1993), ASM238 (1983) and ASM252 (1984) also carry the presumption that they are less common in higher grade as newsstands compared to direct.    

Edited April 17, 2021 by Pantodude

[Albert Thurgood]

1 hour ago, Pantodude said:

 

Seriously though.  It's YOUR turn.  Enough with the conclusory remarks and pony up some articles, blogs, or charts that say otherwise?   

You may not have much luck asking a self-confessed lazyboy to do some work...

[Lazyboy]

4 minutes ago, Pantodude said:

Oh boy.  "Blindly" despite my own observations over decades of the relative scarcity of newsstands compared to directs (in the wild or slabbed) for many, many Spidey, Hulk, and Iron Man books, but also other issues from the mid-80s to early 90s?   And then the consistent accounts here on these boards and all over the internet?  You gotta go with SOMETHING, so I went with that.  Sheesh.  At the end of the day, I really don't care.  Like I said, it is what it is, and prices are what they are for certain books.   It all makes cents, and I am ok with that so long as I can plan accordingly.     If the consensus says they are less common, I will respect them as such.  

Seriously though.  It's YOUR turn.  Enough with the conclusory remarks and pony up some articles, blogs, or charts that say otherwise?   If you're correct, that would be cool, and folks (me included) would like to know.  So don't disappoint!   I await your studious response with bated breath.   

You just mentioned ASM 252 as an example of the scarcity of Newsstands. The fact that you would ever even think about doing that proves how little you understand about the subject.

The problem with you wanting sources on the real Newsstand numbers is that they don't exist because intelligent people know the real numbers aren't available and don't just invent numbers and say they're real. Only the overhyping invent numbers, to try to sell their

Your experience is your experience. Yes, Newsstands are likely to be less available in general, but the subject is far more complex than that.

[Pantodude]

9 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

You just mentioned ASM 252 as an example of the scarcity of Newsstands. The fact that you would ever even think about doing that proves how little you understand about the subject.

Oh boy.  Our posts must have crossed because I just wrote this before yours:

Just wanted to clarify something.  According to the charts above, ASM238 (1983) and ASM252 (1984) were actually more numerous as newsstands than direct when printed.  But common sense suggests that the comic books sold at a newsstand, by less careful staff on damage-causing spinner racks or shelves exposed to the weather, were more likely to get beat up before they were even purchased.  And then once purchased by mom's who tucked away comics w/ groceries,  or dads who tucked away comics in their briefcases on the way home from work, or kids who tucked away comics in their backpacks on the way home from school (if they even cared to tuck them away!), the comics likely suffered additional damage before even getting home.  And then at home, even more damage while they were read/handled.   Compare this to the direct comic books sold at specialty or comic book stores, which were much more likely to survive in high grade.  Direct versions were sold by comic book enthusiasts to comic book enthusiasts, who likely carefully packaged their books before leaving the store and then bagged and boarded their books at home.  This is why the consensus is that, even for the newsstands printed in the early to mid-1980s, the survivability of newsstands in high grade was much, much lower than directs.  

So while the better examples of relatively uncommon high grade books are ASM300 (1988) and ASM375 (1993), ASM238 (1983) and ASM252 (1984) also carry the presumption that they are less common in higher grade as newsstands compared to direct. 

So when you say, "Newsstands are likely to be less available in general, but the subject is far more complex than that," it seems pretty straightforward to me in the context of high grade books, which is what I was writing about.  

Edited April 17, 2021 by Pantodude

[Brock]

Once again, the unstoppable “You can use logic” meets the immovable “You can’t prove a negative”.

[ThothAmon]

Newsstands vs. drects. Issue is closed move on.  

[Pantodude]

1 hour ago, ThothAmon said:

Newsstands vs. drects. Issue is closed move on.  

I'm ok with that.  To recap, no one, including the lazy one (true to his name), cited anything rebutting the widely-held understanding that newsstand versions,  from the 1980s generally but especially the late 80s and early 90s, are significantly less common in high grade than direct versions of the same issue REGARDLESS of who is right about the relative size of print runs at ANY time (newsstands vs direct).  In other words, who cares about the accuracy of the charts!   Surviving copies of keys in high grade.  That's what people are paying for.  That was the main point.  And now, it is also the unrebutted point.  Move on I shall, gladly.  

Edited April 17, 2021 by Pantodude

[bluehorseshoe]

19 hours ago, Pantodude said:

Aw, come on now.  You might mislead a noob hanging on your every word for guidance.  The charts are legit, as they essentially mirror the charts offered in a newsletter by milehighcomics and charts by rarecomics based on CBCS census data.   Unless that info is also BS, here's a link with those charts (you'll need to scroll at least half the way down).   https://rarecomics.wordpress.com/category/direct-edition-vs-newsstand-edition-comic-books/  All other articles on this issue say the same thing with their own charts, presumably based on the same population data.   

Is this where everyone else quit reading this post as well?

[Pantodude]

Moved to a quote below.  

Edited April 17, 2021 by Pantodude

[Pantodude]

ASM 252 and 300 continue to be on fire in high grade, particularly newsstand versions, btw.  

Edited April 17, 2021 by Pantodude

[Pantodude]

22 minutes ago, bluehorseshoe said:

Is this where everyone else quit reading this post as well?

You are referring to the charts again?  That milehigh info was consistent with my experience.  Anyway you know it’s a red herring, right?  Did you miss the memo about how the charts are largely irrelevant to the real issue here—whether premiums for newsstand versions of keys COULD be justified for high-grade books from the 1980s and early 1990s?  Sheesh.  

Edited April 17, 2021 by Pantodude