new grading guide dissapoints

[PovertyRow]

this was as large a book as we could do without turning off the heat in the office and sitting here in barrels.

 

Oh *I* see! You mean you COULD have made it larger at the expense of a few piddling comforts. Haven't you heard the artistic soul thrives on a bit of suffereing? Next you'll be complaining about no a/c or fans in the summer.

 

PS:

[drbanner]

Regarding the pictures, I think it would've been much better to show close-up pictures of the defects (close-ups were presented in the 1st grading guide but not this one???). There are multiple cases of arrows pointing to a defect that simply is not visible in the picture.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Well, there are *some* close-ups throughout the book, maybe not as many as the first one - I haven't counted them - but to be honest, despite the fact that some of you evidently think otherwise, I think we felt the color scans were just so nice and sharp that they were clear enough to represent most of the defects. I'm not saying this was active thinking on our part, it just seems to have come together that way.

 

But hey, if it was perfect, what would all of you have to talk about?

[FlComicFan]

Arnold, I pay all due respects to you and your staff for all the hard work entailed in putting this together. You put in the work I buy the darned thing. I am disspointed because he pics are too small to see defects especially on the critical areas between 9.0 and 10.0. Thats where the grading makes stupid differences in pricing and thats where the need is for clear precise scans showing us exactly the micro defects thst split a 9.8 and a 10.0 etc. Something as simple as a link to your website where huge blowups of these pics were available would have made the pics a valuable tool. Maybe the ball should be tossed into CGC's court. Hey Steve how about some large blowup scans on the CGC site of Gold, Silver, Bronze and Moderns in 9.0 to 10.0 with arrows showing the differences in grades?

[OldGuy]

"But hey, if it was perfect, what would all of you have to talk about?"

 

How good it is?

[Crackandpresstoan11]

Hey Steve how about some large blowup scans on the CGC site of Gold, Silver, Bronze and Moderns in 9.0 to 10.0 with arrows showing the differences in grades?

 

This will never happen for the same reason the grading guidelines will never be revealed. Any inconsistencies, and CGC would be pounced upon by the comic collecting community.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Ah, but as all students of human behavior will tell you, particularly when discussing the behavior of those who chat on the Internet, negativity is always more freely and elaborately expressed than positivity. In fact, some studies show that negative comments about a person, place or thing can outpace positive comments by an enormous percentage, and in many cases, those who *do* have something nice to say will never say it, discouraged by those who step up to the plate with a criticism.

 

Now this isn't to say criticism isn't valid or wanted. You can't improve if you don't hear the bad with the good. I thought the honeymoon might last another week or two , but by all means, bring it on.

[Guest]

other than the adds and the size of the pictures, I love it! I take it with me all the time and I believe it will help A LOT of people out there to grade MUCH better then they do now. I have no problem giving out high fives when I think they are warranted! Great Job on the book. My copy is so beat up already it would have a hard time being graded any better than a GOOD-

[sborock]

Tom-

In grading, as in life, there will always be some inconsitencies. We strive everyday here to be as consistant as possible. No matter what anyone one says, grading is not just a science it is also part art.

 

"Any inconsistencies, and CGC would be pounced upon by the comic collecting community. "

 

This is not true, most of the collecting community has already accepted CGC and don't go around nit-picking our grading. The people who do that usually have an anti-CGC agenda.

 

Here is a email I got today:

 

To Mr. Steve Borock, I want to let you and the staff know what an excellent job you all do. I use your service occassionally (about 75 books and counting). About 90% of them come back the grade I was expecting. I've been collecting for 20+years and just started buying on ebay. I've won 10 seperate auctions (none that are CGCed).I've received 5 of them so far. None are the grade as discribed. Scans don't show everything. Some are way over graded.Eample: Green Lantern #76 listed as: VF(excellent copy, minor wear).Reality copy: 15 stress marks on spine,2 long creases on front cover,and 1 inch tear on front cover. This should be VG+ at best. I'm dreading what the other 5 will be like. This is exactly why your service is needed in this hobby.I am now very hesitant to bid on any book not CGCed. I've heard similar stories and thought they were not true. I now know this does happen. Your service is especially needed for high grade/priced books, being off part of a grade can mean alot of money. If people want to pay multiples of guide for near mint CGCed books, that's thier choice. And the restoration check is vital to the grade. You provide an excellent service.

 

That was from Craig Higgins.

 

[cd4ever]

I concur with everything that dude says. I love CGC and the new life it's breathed into the hobby we all love so much. But like any daughter or son who is doing great in class, we will continually set the bar higher and higher so they never get lazy or think that what they are doing is 'good enough'. You guys are doing a great job. Now get out there and do better!

[sborock]

Thanks! Everyday Mark, Paul, Myself, and all of the people here are always tring to think of new ways to improve CGC. Most of the people here really take pride in what we do, it's not just "another job" to us.

[chrisco37]

I think you guys are being pretty hard on the OGG and Arnold, in particular. The guide states, as Arnold has numerous times, that the guide is not THE definative grading tool. I think FF said before, it is a reference. He's right! The grading guide is at least a reference point for all of us to be on the same page.

 

I agree, some things could have been done differently. Some more defect close-ups would have been nice, but overall, the guide is very good. Excellent explanations of the allowable defects in grade. I think everyone is jumping the gun a little with the pictures. Yeah, they could have been bigger, but with the number of you person_without_enough_empathying about the "high price" (if you can't afford $22 for a grading guide, you shouldn't be collecting HG comics), think about how much more the guide would have cost if there were bigger pictures. You shouldn't be grading your comics just by comparing them to the pictures provided anyway. Read what defects are allowed in grade and how many. The pictures are only pictures. We all know you have to actually examine a comic to determine the grade (scans and pics are great, but there is only one way to truly tell. Seeing it in person).

 

What Arnold has given us is a reference point. I'm sure that Arnold will take alot of what we have said into consideration when he and Bob go to make the next OGG. And it will be improved. But, to call the book disappointing or is not right. Arnold and Bob are trying to improve the hobby and deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

I'm sure it was really an easy book to produce, shown by their half- efforts in providing small pictures. (Sarcasm, obviously).

 

Sorry about the rant, jsut had to get that out there.

 

Chris

[FlComicFan]

the real issue is does it show the difference between 9.0 through 10.0 and I still dont see it. There was not reson to put another grading guide out till CGC popped up (its been 12 years since the first one) I read Chuck Rozanski's column this week in the CBG and he says its selling very poorly indicating maybe only the upper echelon of collectors are even interested in such a publication. What do the top collectors want most is to see these defects shown and how they affect the critical grades between 9.0 and 10.0 If I overgrade or undergrade a 1/2 a grade below VF no big deal (unless you are buying some mega key) Misgrade or get screwed on a difference say between 9.0 and 9.4 its a different ballgame.

 

I am not here to bash CGC or the Overstreet Grading Guide but in fairness publish us some grading standards and show us the defects that make or break books in those super high grades. Cant do that that get us some blowup pics up on the website of Silver, Gold Bronze books before they are encased with the grades you have assigned them so we can see what the deal is. Mr Borock please dont spout the grading is an art not a science when I am paying multiples of guide ( we dont choose to pay the multiples its either pay or stop collecting high grade) because of tiny differences of one grade. I am well aware a comic is not a coin it has many intricacies that make grading it tough. I just would like to see some make or break points for the super high grades. I respect both you and your company and what you are trying to do. Overgrading is rampant among both the uneducated and the veteran dealers who simply should know better so the need for the grading service is certainly there and you have filled it admirably. What I dont respect is slabbing moderns with differences between them so miniscule that I have yet to have someone point out the difference between the 9.9, 9.8, 9.6's I've seen. People are going to be real upset when this bubble busts on that stuff and it will. It did to great extent with sportcards and caused great harm there driving away many collectors who simply didnt know any better. Sincerely Yours, Chet

 

PS why exactly cant you publish the grading standards of CGC? Not trying to be a smartass I would just like to know?

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Im with you on this one......we NEED the grading standards on the 9.0-10.0 grades to be Clearly specified. Ive done a lot of sending in-cracking out-grading-studying flaws-other stuff to try to figure out their grading standards and everytime I think I have it nailed down...BAMMM...I find a book that COMPLETELY contradicts another as far as the grade goes. There has to be some kind of guideline we can all follow so that Im not completely mystified when my books come back.

[C3Galaxia-migration]

I thought the grading guide was very useful and thought that the pictures between 9.0 and 10.0 where quite clear with the exception of only a few and those were already defects I knew how to spot. There are definitions of most defects, examples of each in at least several pictures and definitions on what is allowed in a certain grade. Not to mention they throw in some good data on the estimate number of defects allowed in each grade and good descriptions of severities. And the new grading guide wasn't just released because CGC came around. Read the book and it will explain why a new grading guide was released. I think this book does a good job in explaining how CGC and Overstreet perform their grading. As we concluded in another thread, regardless of how much money is being spent on a book, the grading of that book will still be a combination of both art and science (this doesn't mean let emotions get in the way). Anyone who doesn't take the time to learn the way grading works shouldn't be in the hobby for investment purposes. This goes the same for coins and cards.

 

[Guest]

ummmmm okay.... anyhow, I love the grading guide. The problem I have is with the inconsistency ofCGC graded books in the very high upper-end of the grading scale. I have books thats hould have been graded a 9.6 that got 9.8s and vice versa. This conclusion comes from countless hours of studying CGCs grading practices by sending in and seeing the books of several high grade collectors before they were sent in. For the most part CGC is consistant, but sometimes the grades these books recieve leave me scratching my head. Like I have already said before, every time I seem to zero in on how these books are graded, CGC throws me a curveball and its driving me nuts Oh well, maybe one day they will release their standards,or as C.I. calls it: "The secret recipe"

[maven_johnson-migration]

<< PS why exactly cant you publish the grading standards of CGC? Not trying to be a smartass I would just like to know? >>

 

You will never see the CGC Grading Standards because once you do then their party is over. What's to stop you, me, Mile High or any other schmuck with a magnifying glass from doing the same thing they do, for less.

 

I have never understood the fee scale for CGC. I understand that if you want it quicker you should pay more, but why should I pay top fees for a high priced comic even if I don't want, and can't get it back timely. Does my $2000 comic get more atttention at $70 than my $800 comic charged $45? Even though I'm willing to wait the extra 10 business days, why should I pay more?

 

And how is it ethical to charge a percent of value on Walk thru's? Hmm, we need to ramp up fees - hey everybody let's up these all 1 full grade! I'm not implying they do this, but the door is certainly there, unlocked and open!

 

CGC is not the panacea everyone makes it out to be, but it does offer some fegree of certainty. I just got 2 raw Silver Age comics off eBay described as mint (the images were two small to really tell), and they were FN, and VF-. The seller e-mailed back that he thought they looked good for their age (one did, one didn't) but admitted he knew nothing about comics grading. We did work out a partial refund.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[Bugaboo-migration]

I have never understood the fee scale for CGC. I understand that if you want it quicker you should pay more, but why should I pay top fees for a high priced comic even if I don't want, and can't get it back timely. Does my $2000 comic get more atttention at $70 than my $800 comic charged $45? Even though I'm willing to wait the extra 10 business days, why should I pay more

I believe the reason cgc uses this sort of pricing is because higher dollar comics "can" get more value out of cgc grading.

 

When I used to work for a computer data company (sold raw computer data for hospital systems (like drug pricing data.....contraindications....etc.....not the actual programs themselves). Anyway......a large hospital would be charged more for the same exact data than a smaller hospital. Why? Because the larger hospital got more value and use out of the data. Same thing with a Pharmacy......a single pharmacy store owner would pay less than an owner who owned 3 stores for the same data.

 

If you have a $100 comic graded.....if it get's a good grade....it's value may increase to....let's say....$200. However.......If you have a $10,000 comic graded.......it could increase it's value to.....let's say....$15,000 or more. You tend to get more of a benifit out of their grading services for larger dollar comics.....hence......the higher charge. Just my opinion.

[FlComicFan]

"If you have a $100 comic graded.....if it get's a good grade....it's value may increase to....let's say....$200. However.......If you have a $10,000 comic graded.......it could increase it's value to.....let's say....$15,000 or more. You tend to get more of a benifit out of their grading services for larger dollar comics.....hence......the higher charge. Just my opinion"

 

Thats the problem right there in one quote. The super high grade comics that are sitting in slabs now existed before CGC and were the same grade thay just had not been given the CGC stamp of approval which seems to have almost overnight changed the pricing of the comic market (at least currently) exponentially like a virus.

 

If you had you book submitted and it got a 9.4 if the market said the book was only worth guide or say a premium of 50% just how many books do you think would get submitted to CGC?

 

I dont see a flood of mid grade or low grade Gold/Silver Age books pouring in even those that are valued $1000+ Most Gold titles I collect dont even have 1 issue graded by CGC. Turn that around and look at Bronze or Silver and you see dozens and all are super high grade with the exception of those submiteed by people who didnt recognise the books flaws or missed some critical flaw CGC found or says is there.

 

I'm curious what is going to happen once the majority of the high grade stuff from pre 1975 stops coming in to be graded. There has to be a finite supply to some degree especially on the pre 1965 stuff before any specualtors existed. Whats CGC going to do for revenue then? Will a fine Gold book suddenly be worth 2 x guide because its CGC slabbed and then eveybody will start sending in all their mid grade Gold?

 

As for Moderns anyone buying and selling 9.9 copies of books right of the newstand you may as well go on Home Shopping Channel and buy some of the ready made collectibles they sell.

[Darthdiesel]

When I used to work for a computer data company (sold raw computer data for hospital systems

 

We all know you sold out their private information like their social security numers, phone numbers, addresses and their medical conditions ( so that future employers would know ahead of time if they were going to be hiring a high potential deadbeat)...just admit it, Bug