First Appearance of Spider-Man's Black Costume Anywhere?
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

and then was called a “ huckster “

That is incorrect. You were not called a huckster. What you've done here is called "internalization", whereby you take a comment directed at a certain group of people and assume that you have been included in that group, and that that comment is therefore directed at you, personally, when the context does not suggest that such an assumption is valid.

As a result, you were offended...without justification...and reacted by tossing out insults at the one you assume...incorrectly...insulted you.

Here's the context of the comment again:

11 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Just so you know...this topic has been discussed in great and alarming depth over many years, with the forces of reason trying to beat back the irrationality of the hucksters trying to redefine what a "first appearance" actually means,

That statement at the beginning..."just so you know"...means my comment was directed specifically to you; that I was telling you that there are hucksters doing these things.  The context of my comment makes it clear that I was not including you in that group...I was talking directly to you about that group. And it makes no sense to tell you about these hucksters if I was including you in that group.

There are people on this board...and in the general comics community...who aggressively keep trying to redefine decades of comics fandom definitions..definitions I didn't make up, by the way, but learned in my turn, as does everyone else...and their motives for doing so are obvious.

But you assumed bad faith on my part, which was a bad faith assumption on yours.

2 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

I get warned by the mods about my posts which they said didn’t follow cgc guidelines . It’s a info thread and clearly it’s a click thing I’m not part of . 

I'm sorry you got warned, and I was afraid that might happen. This community is often too quick on the draw. I'm a big boy, and can certainly handle just about anything people want to throw at me, and was not offended by your insults (hence my tongue-in-cheek response.) But it would be a mistake...a pretty big one...to imagine that you are the victim of some sort of clique. You assumed you had been insulted when you hadn't been, so you responded with insults of your own. That's on you. 

Will me taking the time to explain any of this matter to you? Will you assume a good faith effort to help you understand where a fellow collector is coming from? Maybe. Hopefully. But bitter history says probably not. 

2 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

Funny thing how that black and red suit exists today in many spider characters costume design

Yes, that's why it was concept art: the concept gets tweaked over the years, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

2 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

Marvel prob just didn’t want to pay for red inks bitd made it blank instead to save cash .  

No, that's not how it works. ;)

 

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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On 1/12/2013 at 2:31 AM, MrWeen said:

Marvel Team-Up 141 is one of my most prized Marvel comics for a few reasons. This book has a 75 cent Canadian Variant that is nearly impossible to find

Of all the nonsense posted in this thread, this might be the funniest.

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On 1/12/2013 at 4:24 PM, MrWeen said:

The Marvel Age issue had a prototype costume. Secret Wars 8 is the listed first. Yeah this is a preview book but I am interested in finding the first published appearance of the final design of the black costume and I think this is it. This issue of Amazing Heroes pre-dates the release of Secret Wars 8.

CGC disagrees with you  re:  listed first ..  asm 252 or team up 141  according to CGC slabs 

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I think preview items are cool, but not first appearances by any stretch. Not to derail, but what is the first appearance of Aunt May and Uncle Ben?

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1 hour ago, PeterPark said:

Not to derail,

Don't worry, the thread died over 6 years ago and was resting comfortably before some necromancer came along.

1 hour ago, PeterPark said:

but what is the first appearance of Aunt May and Uncle Ben?

Parker? Amazing Fantasy 15.

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8 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Don't worry, the thread died over 6 years ago and was resting comfortably before some necromancer came along.

Parker? Amazing Fantasy 15.

So is Strange Tales 97 or Tales of Suspense 7 previews? Or prototypes? Or something else...

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So when I colored spider-man black in my coloring book as a kid in the 70's it wasn't the first appearance of spider-man's black custom?!? It's an original and I still have it :roflmao:

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2 hours ago, PeterPark said:

I think preview items are cool, but not first appearances by any stretch. Not to derail, but what is the first appearance of Aunt May and Uncle Ben?

uncle-bens-white-rice.png&f=1

Poor Peter....

giphy.gif&f=1

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, PeterPark said:

So is Strange Tales 97 or Tales of Suspense 7 previews? Or prototypes? Or something else...

Ditko liked the look of the two characters he created, so he reused them in a different story, as different characters, with the same name.

Not previews, not prototypes; they were on Ditko's mind, so he used them. Or Stan liked them. Or Martin liked them (though that's unlikely.) Or Flo liked them. The point is, they were appropriate to the story. They didn't know they were creating icons.

Edited by RockMyAmadeus

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23 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

The first appearance of the black costume is ASM #252. Anything prior to that is marketing previews and promotional material. Since comic books are a storytelling medium, the first appearance of *anything* only counts if it's in the context of the story, which has been the traditional understanding since comics fandom began, or Action Comics #12 would be the first appearance of Batman.

And, even with all of that, all the previews talk about a black AND RED costume, which wasn't the final design...so it's not even the same costume.

This. A million times this. Previews, ads, editorials and marketing have their place in the esoterica of collecting, but in the lexicon of collecting, an appearance is in a story

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@Subby1938  I'm with you. It's pretty clear that the previews, ads, whatevers in Amazing Heroes, Comic Readers, etc, appeared in time before ASM 252 and if you had eyes in your head and light on the page you could've seen a black suit spidey in printed reality for a fleeting period during which he'd yet to manifest in a regularly published Marvel comic book. You'll find, however, tyrannical resistance from the community to allow "first appearance" to mean anything other than first in story appearance. I'm not trying to say in title firsts aren't rightfully more important, but they're not always first, and unless someone is trying to redefine the word "appearance", it's hard to argue with ink on the page.

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7 hours ago, Xenosmilus said:

So when I colored spider-man black in my coloring book as a kid in the 70's it wasn't the first appearance of spider-man's black custom?!? It's an original and I still have it :roflmao:

:takeit:

 

Would you be willing to do Signature Series? I'll find a facilitator...

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5 hours ago, sk.rank said:

@Subby1938  I'm with you. It's pretty clear that the previews, ads, whatevers in Amazing Heroes, Comic Readers, etc, appeared in time before ASM 252 and if you had eyes in your head and light on the page you could've seen a black suit spidey in printed reality for a fleeting period during which he'd yet to manifest in a regularly published Marvel comic book. You'll find, however, tyrannical resistance from the community to allow "first appearance" to mean anything other than first in story appearance. I'm not trying to say in title firsts aren't rightfully more important, but they're not always first, and unless someone is trying to redefine the word "appearance", it's hard to argue with ink on the page.

This is excellent propaganda. Kudos!

Quick clarification: the pictures posted in Amazing Heroes, Comic Readers, etc., were given to them by Marvel. They are copies of the art that ultimately appeared in Marvel Age #12...which was the black AND RED costume. That design was ultimately rejected for the one that appeared....for the first time anywhere, mind you...in the pages of ASM #252. A quirk of publishing saw those reproductions produced in black and white, but their publication in MA #12 indicates those pieces were black & red. And which, of course, doesn't even matter.

"Tyrannical resistance"...aka, common sense (and a flagrant misuse of the word "tyrannical"...a frequent charge made by people who don't like the fact that, in a free society, others can publicly and freely challenge them, so they charge those others with what they would, themselves, like to do.) 

One more time: in the 5 or so decades of organized comics fandom, appearances in comics have been defined as taking place within the context of a story. And it's not as if previews and ads are anything new; they've been appearing since the dawn of the comic book. Generations of collectors rejected the idea that a mere house ad, preview, or promotional piece would be considered a "first appearance."

Context, as ever, is king.

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Posted (edited)

I think the ignorance from this forum and thread is obvious in the way members talk to other members because they had diff point of view. Goes to show you how people are . Calling people names and making fun others statements on their most prized books really must make you guys feel good. I don’t come on here often because of this very behaviour . 

 

It has zero to do with bringing  a dead thread to life . I googled this topic I added info this happened. I know preview books are not licensed magazines etc but marvel Age was hence why CGC designated “ pre date ASM 252 “ . Heck I remember when Canadian edition didn’t exit on their labels so things def change . 

I’m  not here to argue and could care less about being made fun of I won’t accept bullying by anyone for having an opinion

Edited by Subby1938

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It's kinda funny...."tyrannical resistance" is almost an oxymoron. Those capable of engaging in actual tyranny rarely meet resistance, after all, and when they do, they tend to crush it. That's what makes them tyrannical...

:cloud9:

 

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Posted (edited)

Nobody cares about your opinion like you don’t care for yours ✌️

 

Edited by Subby1938

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2 minutes ago, Subby1938 said:

I think the ignorance from this forum and thread is obvious in the way members talk to other members because they had diff point of view. Goes to show you how people are . Calling people names and making fun others statements on their most prized books really must make you guys feel good. I don’t come on here often because of this very behaviour . 

 

So let it be written...

22 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Will me taking the time to explain any of this matter to you? Will you assume a good faith effort to help you understand where a fellow collector is coming from? Maybe. Hopefully. But bitter history says probably not. 

So let it be done.

3 minutes ago, Subby1938 said:

I won’t accept bullying by anyone for having an option 

No one is being "bullied", and carelessly throwing around that term on a comic book message board to mischaracterize those who do nothing but disagree with you, while you have every opportunity to respond as you wish, does a real disservice to those in the world who are actually being bullied. No one has called you any names, except perhaps "necromancer" for resurrecting a long dead thread, which isn't an insult.

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2 minutes ago, Subby1938 said:

Nobody cares about your opinion like you don’t care for yours ✌️

 

I don't care for my opinion...?

hm

That's an interesting theory!

PS. Flipping people off British style is definitely the sign of a reasoned, well framed argument.

:applause:

 

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