FF #1 vs. AF #15

[blowout]

Just thought I'd thow this out to the forum as it is something that really bugs me.

 

Here is a quote from odin88 from another thread which started me off.

 

"FF #1 is still the mother of all silver age Marvels & should sit higher on the hierarchy than AF 15 or ASM 1 IMHO. "

 

I hear so many people saying this about FF #1. It is the market that determines the price/popularity of comic books, and however many people cry about it, there just isn't a big market for Fantastic Four books anymore. I can only see this difference widening too........Spidey is a media icon and has a huge fan base and the FF are not popular.....well, only in the minds of silver age collectors.

 

Prepare for the gap between AF #15 and FF #1 to get wider and wider as the years go on. The significance of FF #1 is diminishing with time whilst Spideys popularity continues to grow.

 

Am I out of line here?

I think the price for AF #15 SHOULD be higher than that of FF #1.

 

 

[Eternal]

as well i wonder what a FF movie would do to the price. I hear one is in the planning.

[fantastic_four]

Show me the examples of Amazing Fantasy 15 selling for more than Fantastic Four #1 !

 

Tough to do...and why? There are barely any FF #1s around in grade to hit the market. The few that do quite often do go for prices equal to, slightly less than, or greater than AF 15. The only CGC 9.4 copy of Fantastic Four #1 I've seen sold for more than the last AF 15 CGC 9.4 publicly sold!

 

Overall Fantastic Four #1 is in less demand than AF15, but because it's so tough to find, it goes for prices rather similar to those garnered for AF15.

[aardvark88]

When I was a little kid I bought 70s FF, Avengers, Defenders, What If, etc. I did not like Spidey at all during the 70s. Too much hi-school angst. Not enough cosmic adventures like in J Buscema's FF or Avengers.

At the time Ostreet ranked FF 1 as the mother of all silver Marvels. To this day, I still value my own copy of FF 1 over ASM 1 or AF 15. There are still MANY hardcore FF collectors out there, it is just that ASM has had a gr8 run after Todd's ASM 298 (1988), Venom, Hobgoblin, & last year's movie media FRENZY.

[aardvark88]

Keep in mind that FF collectors also must have ASM 1 b/c it has FF on the front cover & inside x-over story.

[hammer-migration]

For several years, the hobby's thoughts were reflected in the Overstreet when Det. 27 was actually priced IN EXCESS of Action 1, although in reality, that was an impossibility. HOW could that be, aside from the immediate popularity of the Batman movie successes? Action 1 was ALWAYS the KING of DC Superhero books, from the time it supplanted Marvel 1 roughly 20 years ago, as #1.

The same scenario exists with FF1 vs. AF15. Spiderman 1's, even in VF/NM and better and NOT rare. Many sales transpire on that issue monthly and proportionately push up the price of AF15s by gravity (which ALSO appear quite frequently in VF+ or better, although not AS commonly as Spiderman 1). How many FF1 offerings in VF/NM and better has anyone seen in the past two years? How about relative to sales on Spiderman 1 and AF15? Not many, huh?

An FF1 in similar grade to an AF15 would bring just as much, if not MORE than an AF15, and if not, it would be very close, a gap that would close even smaller as the years go by, with eventually FF1 pulling ahead in the future.

 

The value heirarchy on the Marels should be similar as the one existant on the Golden age "Big Three":

 

1) Action 1

2) Marvel 1

3) Det. 27

 

Silver:

1) FF1

2) AF15

3) Spiderman 1

 

Throw the guide aside momentarily. Let's think reality, and what 9.4s in the Silver age, and 9.0s in the Golden Age stated, would actually bring at the moment.

[chrisco37]

Silver: 1) FF1 2) AF15 3) Spiderman 1

 

Spiderman 1? The McFarlane Book? YES! I have, like 50 copies of this book! Everyone, PM me with your offers!!!!

 

Chris

[fantastic_four]

I would list Hulk 1 as third. Spidey 1 is the most unimportant Silver Age key by FAR. Hulk 1 is another one like FF 1 that is ultra-tough to find. Last 9.2 went for $50K; Spidey 1 hasn't come close to that!

[metropoliscomics]

The value heirarchy on the Marels should be similar as the one existant on the Golden age "Big Three":

1) Action 1

2) Marvel 1

3) Det. 27

 

Has someone suggested that a Detective 27 is worth less than Marvel #1? Now I have heard everything.

 

 

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

One thing is for sure, all of the "big three" golden age books have great historical significance. What if only 1 NM copy of each of the big three existed, and all three were sold at the same time, at the same auction, with all major dealers present (Metropolis included) with plenty of money to go around. Would the market determine the importance or are there other things to consider?

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

I would rather have a NM copy of Amazing Fantasy 15 than Fantastic Four 1 any day of the week!

[hammer-migration]

Possibly. Isn't Marvel 1 the only comic to have sold thusfar for $1,000,000?? In "only" VF/NM? Are you aware of that sale? Let's see, if my memory serves me, the highest price paid for a Det.27 (I believe a VF) thusfar is approx. $280,000. That's $720,000 LESS than what the Marvel 1 has ALREADY sold for. For the sake of argument, let's say a VF/NM, 1 point better than the VF or so that already sold, a la Mastro, went at DOUBLE a VF prior auction high. That would yield approx. $600,000 for a VF/NM Det. 27, STILL $400,000 LESS than the Pay copy of Marvel 1 (a "tenuos" VF/NM at best that some feel is closer to a strict VF- range). Do you take any of this into account or are you inferring that Jay Parino is a LIAR, thereby skewing the whole heirarchy, based on his $1,000,000 sale. The only way that you can possibly THINK that a Det. 27 is worth more than a Marvel 1, at present time, is if you put no stock whatsoever into Mega$aurus' Pay copy sale. Aren't ACTUAL sales the best indicator of which books are worth MORE than others? Of heriarichal order? Or do you have some other, possibly mystical manner in which you determine this?

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

So let me get this straight, the one person that paid $1,000,000 for a Marvel Comics # 1 has single handidly caused the book to be more important? We may never know the true market value of a Detective 27, because the highest CGC grade is an 8.0, and only 1 has graded an VF 8.0. Obviously a NM Marvel # 1 would go for more than a VF Detective 27, because of the difference in grade. Another thing to consider is the state of the comic book market at the time a book was sold, that is if market value determines the importance. How about popularity? I would MUCH rather have the first appearance of Superman or Batman than Marvel Comics # 1. However, I am aware that Marvel-ites are a dedicated bunch.

[hammer-migration]

You can argue this back and forth all day between Marvel 1 vs. Detective 27. For the initial 12 years or so of the Overstreet guide, MARVEL 1 was the most expensive book. Let's not forget, this heirarchy of value that we see today has it's roots frimly implanted in what Overstreet set as the heirarchy 30 years ago with surprisingly very little change. Sure, some "top 5" books have moved out of that caliber (Whiz 1, Motion Picture Funnies 1, etc), but basically it's what was the same "position #1-30 most valueable books" 25 years ago, still within the goalposts of the "position #1-50" most valueable books listed TODAY.

MARVEL 1 spent FAR more time occupying the #1 position than Det.27 EVER did (probably THREE times as much), and with Marvel comics STILL the most popular comics universe today, and back issue Marvels outselling DCs 20 to 1 in SIlver and Bronze age collectible issues, WHY should a Det.27 be worth more than a Marvel 1. Marvel 1 is the start of the marvel universe. Action 1 is the start of the Superhero DC universe. THERE'S where the real toss-up lies as far as MOST valuable. At least Overstreet seemed to indicate that train of thought for FAR longer than he entertained Det.27 front running the pack!

 

And BTW, the Marvel 1 was a VF/NM 9.0, NOT a NM. ONE full grade better than the $280,000 Det 27, for $720,000 more. STILL a viable comparison if you figure a mean average of a VF/NM selling for roughly double a VF.

I can't see a VF/NM Det.27 selling for $1,000,000 based on $280,000 VF sale.

[Bugaboo-migration]

I see your point hammer but one sale does not a market create. (yes....i meant to type that sentence that way).

 

On any given day, values can fluctuate wildly based on who's bidding for a particular book and the reason behind their want or need for it......especially with books of this magnitude. If a true cgc 9.0 or higher Detective #27 were to show up......who knows what kind of price it could fetch.......I certainly don't. On a personal level.......I would much rather have a nm Detective #27 than a Marvel #1.....but that's just me.

 

Now......if you're going only by actual prices realized by these particular books......then shouldn't Marvel #1 be listed above even the Action #1 in your list?

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

So would you rather have Youngblood # 1 or Spawn # 1?

[hammer-migration]

Neither!

[hammer-migration]

Sales drive the market. Create and define the structure. Sure, with books like Hulk 181, Spiderman 122, even Spiderman 1 (S.A.), extropulating sales, throwing out the high and low, and arriving at a mean is not a hard task. There's PUH-lenty of sales to reference. The big three in rarified grades trade VERY infrequently. Like Pluto's orbit of the sun. The $1,000,000 Marvel 1 sale MAY mean something, and it might not. Look at Showcase 4. The book is supposed to be a "Monster" itself. Don't some consider it on par with FF1, AF15, Spiderman 1? How many VF/NMs traded this year on it? Is Mark's $125,000 price tag for a 9.2 valid? Would you rather buy an AF15 or Showcase 4 given the same $$$$ to spend if you could only choose one? WHY doesn't it command the WIDESPREAD respect of the AF 15 and FF1, seemingly ONLY amongst DC collectors. Marvels outsell DC silver age by incredible multiples. Is it the scarcity of DCs or the popularity of Marvels that account for this? TIMELY's seem to outsell DC Golden age handily on Ebay. You almost NEVER see a Timely, in ANY grade that doesn't garner FAR more bidding action and reserves met than DCs. Marvel 1 is a serious book. Action 1 and Det 27 are also. To my way of thinking, the SECOND most valueable DC book will NEVER be as valueable as the #1 Timely/Marvel book. Logically, I don't see it.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Good points........but just out of curiosity, what's your reasoning for listing Action #1 ahead of Marvel #1 based on what you just said?

[murph0]

I just thought I'd toss this out there..

How many people would you guess that own a FF #1 are un-comicbook educated or current with the times? Sure there are some, but that's a rarity you usually find in a "pedigree".

How many of them saw what happened to Spiderman after a movie?

If you were in possession of an FF #1 and were looking to sell it..when would you sell it..now, when there's really nothing more then written demand for it..or once a movie becomes a reality and the hype engine starts running. IMO most of the people who own a nice copy of FF #1 aren't stupid. Why sell now? No real reason to, they've waited this long. They'll wait it out some more. IMO the # of FF #1 copies out there is on par with the # of AF #15..only reason you see the AF's come out of the woodwork is because there's a massive demand and a hype engine supplying "guaranteed" enormous prices.

Either way, I'll wait and see what the next year brings and alter my opinion upon whether or not an FF movie becomes a reality..

 

Brian