FF #1 vs. AF #15

[blowout]

"IMO most of the people who own a nice copy of FF #1 aren't stupid. Why sell now? No real reason to, they've waited this long. They'll wait it out some more. IMO the # of FF #1 copies out there is on par with the # of AF #15..only reason you see the AF's come out of the woodwork is because there's a massive demand and a hype engine supplying "guaranteed" enormous prices. "

 

This is a very good point Brian. This is basically why I was arguing for AF #15 over FF #1 in the first place.

 

Spider-Man is a cultural icon now thanks to the huge exposure generated by the movie. People may argue that movies in themselves don't generate high prices for comic books. This may or may not be true, but what they do do, is put the characters in the public conciousness. It is no real surprise that Action #1 and Detective #27 are the big two of the golden age, it is because both Batman and Superman are cultural icons. Other books mentioned like Whiz #1 and Marvel Comics #1 are not in that category and have slipped in recent years.

 

Who the hell outside of the comics hobby know who the Fantastic Four are?

More importantly, who cares?

 

The iconic status of a character generates demand for their first appearance, it is not enough for a book to have historic importance only within comic book circles.

 

That is why i'll take AF #15 over FF #1 every time. And so would the man in the street.

 

[Darthdiesel]

Overall Fantastic Four #1 is in less demand than AF15, but because it's so tough to find, it goes for prices rather similar to those garnered for AF15.

 

So the high price for FF1 is not set by supply and demand, but artificially propped up by the few diehard "BSD" FF collectors with limitless expense accounts who feel the need to drive prices high to outspend the competition???

[Darthdiesel]

Last 9.2 went for $50K

 

It was a pedigree and was it a valid buyer?(Non-shill)

[murph0]

I thought the last 9.4 went for over 90k in June?

 

Brian

[Darthdiesel]

NM- 9.2 Bethlehem Pedigree $51,900 - sold on eBay Aug 2002

[murph0]

k, but I'm talking about a 9.4 that sold in June for like 90k or around there. Also, other then Bob's AF 15 9.4 where are people seeing all these AF 15's? I've only come up with 2 9.0's that have been on eBay in a little more then a year and 1 restored 9.2

 

Brian

[murph0]

k nm, you're talking about Hulk 1..stick to the damned subject

 

Brian

[hammer-migration]

To answer several points:

When was the last sale of an Action 1 in VF or better (strictly speaking all books mentioned unrestored)? When was it offered? What was the price? I have no knowledge of ANY Action 1s in VF or better TOTALLY unrestored (and I mean no alteration notes on a "blue label"), trading since post CGC inception.

There have been BIG sales (quarter mil and up) that I, and probably everyone else here, are aware of:

Det 27 VF: $280,000 (If you consider the buyer's premium part of the price).

Marvel 1 VF/NM: $1,000,000 (personally, I BELIEVE the sale)

Cap 1: NM+ 9.6: $265,000

 

None of these sales are relatively recent so let's assume that the market HASN'T changed and most of the players are still here with the same want lists. If your list includes a Cap 1 in VF or better, you can find one, if money is no object. Cap 1 is NOT a rare book as far as the $100,000 Overstreet NM guide price club books go. If your list has a More Fun 52 in VF or better, you've got a severe problem trying to fill that slot! Money may be no object, but you won't find one, and in the event that you DO, take the guide price, add 5200, multiply it by 2 and keep multiplying!!! When you get to the right exponential figure, MAYBE, the owner will part with it. Same with a Detective 1. Think about a Det 1 in VF/NM. If we're going by RARITY, what would a Detective 1 in VF/NM be worth??? More than the Pay copy of Marvel 1?? Damn straight it would. TWO on the census, a MAIN title #1 that gave us Superman prototypes and Batman's first appearance? If Marvel 1 is a Million dollar book, what the hell would a Det. 1 be worth in similar condition?? 2 million?? WHY NOT? These are as rare as 15th and 16th century art masterpieces in these kind of grades and their existance hasn't even as yet been confirmed by CGC.

The point is that there ISN'T a way to affix values to "Top 10 books" in extreme grades. Now let's keep in mind that the Pay copy Marvel 1 is not referred to as "the $200,000 (guide price) book that sold for $1,000,000! It's just known as the Million dollar book because you can pretty much burn the Overstreet on these books!

Now, what about the ultimate prize: Action 1 VF/NM or better. WHERE? Who has one to sell. Who has a VF/NM, let alone the NM that Jay wants to pay a mil for?

To my knowledge, Mega$ doesn't own/ hasn't owned a VF or better Action 1 and if HE can't buy it, who can? Evidently, the offers aren't high enough. What will it take? There's Dave Anderson's Mile high. Is it color touched? I don't think it is, but it's rumored to be c.t.'ed. Is it a NM 9.4 to the standards that Mega$ will pay the dough (will it CGC a NM 9.4 with NO alteration notes?). Will Dave even THINK of selling it for that? Does he NEED Jay's $$$$$$$$? If we look beyond Dave, where do we find a NM Action 1? Wherever it IS found, I don't think $1,000,000 would take it. Would Jay pay more than that if he had to? Damn right he would, for a 5 million dollar One of a kind, most valueable book in the hobby, pinnacle of comic collecting icon!

 

 

 

[awe4one]

I'd say AF #15 is more important than FF#1 also even though I'm a die-hard FF fan. Spider-Man put Marvel on the comics map. FF may have been available first but SM quickly became Marvel's #1 character and best seller. SM is essentially Marvel's icon on par with DC's Superman for worldwide recognition. Scarcity has nothing to do with how important the comic is. AF#15 had more of an impact.

 

 

Jim

[COI]

Hammer, you've said basically all there is to say about the Marvel 1 VS. Det. 27, and I'm in total agreement.

 

But going back to Silver Marvel, I have the same bone to pick as FF did. Why would you consider ASM #1 for the #3 slot. IMO the list goes like this:

 

#1 FF1(Yes, I think this is more significant to comics history than AF 15

#2 AF15

#3 Hulk 1

#4 TOS #39

#5 JIM #83

#6 FF #5

#7 ASM #1

 

I extended the list to show aproximetly where I would place ASM #1. And if anything, I would possibly bump it down further. I have no clue why ASM #1 would command the price it does. Granted it's the first book of the monumental Spidey run, and we all know the obvious significance this run has, but if you isolate the book itself to "pound for pound" significance, it dosen't even begin to measure up.

 

It retells the origin of Spidey, but who cares about a retelling? It's the first FF X-Over, but X-Overs are at the bottom of the Major Key "food chain". And it contains the first app. of The Chameleon( ) a third rate Spidey villain at best, and of JJJ, a character who has absolutely no significance outside of his own

cliche'd(sp?) role of on Spidey and person_without_enough_empathying at Peter Parker. SO what's left? The second appearance of Spidey? I won't even dignify that. The whole concept of 2nd, 3rd appearance being notable, is no different than notating the 10th appearance, or the 18th. Once a character makes his first appearance, and once his origin is told, that's it!

 

And as you acurately stated, this book isn't nearly as hard to find in VF/NM or higher, as some of its peers. How many FF #5's do you see in that grade, aside from the same 2 copies that are constantly re-listed on ebay. Or if you want to talk about tough, how about TOS #39. I've seen some very nice books/collections, but I've NEVER personally seen a TOS above VF/NM. And the only sale I know about of a copy in NM range is the CGC 9.2 Bethlehem copy that sold for just under 19K. Not to mention Hulk #1(already brought up) that's about as absurdly diffcult to find in HG as FF #1, perhaps moreso. And all these examples feature a significance that ASM #1 can't even begin to live up to. I would even rather use the money spent on an ASM #1 in VF/NM to buy a solid NM 9.4 or 9.6 Avengers 4.

 

The only reason ASM #1 commands big $$$$ is because of compulsive ASM completists. And when you consider that ASM is the most collected title in comics history, you can see why it's reached the price it has. But I think any serious key collector would prioritize any of the other books I've mentioned above ASM #1, based purely on significance. In that respect ASM #1 dosen't even BEGIN to measure up.

[blowout]

You guys (Hammer, FF, AK etc) keep going on about how hard book A & book B are to find.........but who cares how hard to find they are if only a handful of people are looking for them?

 

The importance of a book surely comes down to the size of its impact on the world at large, and although I agree that FF #1 had a huge impact as the start of the marvel age of comics, thats it.

The Fantastic Four are and will continue to be, a pretty lame super team. Joe public doesn't give a rats about them and probably doesn't even know who they are. The highest budget FF film in the world ain't gonna change that.

Spider-Man has proved, especially this year, to be the Marvel character with the biggest staying power and cross-market appeal.

 

What does all this mean?

 

Amazing Fantasy #15 is so far above Fantastic Four #1 in the importance stakes that it can't even be measured.

 

As an aside, I do agree that Amazing Spider-Man #1 has an over-inflated status.

[fantastic_four]

Your original quote from Odin claimed that "FF is the mother of all Silver Age Marvels." He's right--it was the seminal original work of Stan Lee and made all the others possible. So it's not an inaccurate statement.

 

Here's a quote from you:

 

I hear so many people saying this about FF #1. It is the market that determines the price/popularity of comic books, and however many people cry about it, there just isn't a big market for Fantastic Four books anymore. I can only see this difference widening too........Spidey is a media icon and has a huge fan base and the FF are not popular.....well, only in the minds of silver age collectors.

The market has shown that Amazing Fantasy and Fantastic Four sell for remarkably similar prices. I agree that Amazing Fantasy is a much more desirable book--I like it better myself because I like Spidey more and I think the story in AF15 is Stan Lee's single greatest piece of professional work--but Fantastic Four isn't just liked by Silver Age fans. Or more precisely, the Fantastic Four has better first appearances and origins of other characters than Spidey had--Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, and Galactus have crossed over into EVERY other Marvel comic. Not to mention the Star Wars universe in the form of Darth Vader. It was the Silver Surfer/Galactus tie that got me into collecting FF again a few years ago. That's still my favorite storyline of all time.

 

Again, I think Spidey is a better character than any of the individual ones who ever appeared in the FF, but aside from that, the FF generated a larger number of quality characters and villains to draw people in than Spidey did. The FF also skews towards an older audience; not just one that was alive during its heyday, but towards an audience that is more mature. The relationships that Stan very intentionally created are better suited to more mature readers--you have husband/wife with Reed/Sue, brother/sister with Sue and Johnny, Buddy-buddy with Reed and Ben Grimm, and experienced older guy/arrogant young hotshot with Ben Grimm and Johnny. Kids and younger adults usually don't get into these relationships as much as an older audience does. Adults especially are more likely to enjoy Fantastic Four than X-Men; the X-Men's team dynamic is usually very tense and competitive. Very little love amongst the members. I like the X-Men's powers and villains, but the anti-mutant atmosphere and resultant tension amongst the characters is hard to feel good about over the course of many years. The personalities of the FF are more likable than those of the X-Men. The powers aren't as cool as those of a Wolverine, but it's easier for adults to relate to the FF characters.

 

The FF has definitely had a lack of major story twists for 20-30 years...but Marvel remains committed to it, so it's still possible that a great artist can innovate the title. The current crop of writers Marvel has are some of the best they've ever had. They'll never have the appeal of Spidey, but I don't agree at all that they're headed towards oblivion. They might end up getting cancelled--that could happen to any title without quality writing--but there's plenty of quality to work with that can keep them going.

[awe4one]

Even though I agree that AF#15 is probably more important, I have to stop you at the following comment:

 

The Fantastic Four are and will continue to be, a pretty lame super team.

 

I vehemently disagree! Take SM and FF's first 100 issues.

 

FF has more memorable stories and characters than SM by a long shot. The classics run off the list such as Silver Surfer/Galactus, Inhumans, Doom, Sue and Reed's marriage, This Man, This Monster, and the birth of Franklin (my personal favorite) to name a few.

 

What did SM provide us? Green Goblin, more GG, Aunt May getting sick again, Mary Jane, Gwen, a couple of rogue villain appearances, etc...all great in their own way but, other than a couple stories, none that are particularly noteworthy in comparision to the epics of FF.

 

Lame? That's bordering on blasphemy I say! I would call them one of the greatest comic superteams to ever grace a comic page!

 

This is objective I know but you can't go disrespecting the FF while I'm around!

 

 

Jim

[Crackandpresstoan11]

1 FF1(Yes, I think this is more significant to comics history than AF 15

#2 AF15

#3 Hulk 1

#4 TOS #39

#5 JIM #83

#6 FF #5

#7 ASM #1

 

...and where is X-men #1? at #8???

[Mister_Comics]

I grew up during that time when the superhero comics were making their revival. I was that kid going to the local drugstore buying comics after school and during lunch. I can tell you first hand that during that time the FF would be considered the more desirable over Spidey. Us kids would grab up all the FF's as soon as they came into the stores. I don't remember ever seeing Spidey's selling out. There always seemed to be some in the racks. As far as FF#1 Vs. AF#15 I'd have to go with the FF. My reason; FF was the first MARVEL comic to start their superhero line during the silverage. Spidey came a little later and caught on right away. But at that time Spidey was just another MARVEL comic. FF had a cartoon show and then Spidey came out with one. Spider-Man may be more popular now, more popular then FF. But thats only because MARVEL and the movie put Spider-Man in the limelight.

One other thing I've noticed over the years. I've seen the FF#1 cover swiped in a lot more things then AF#15. Action #1 even more. Wish I could name the stuff but I can't remember it all. Comic strips and magazine articles are a few. But definitly the FF#1 is the more important book of the two.

 

Now I have to disagree with a lot of you on what comic started the silverage, what is the more important book. It was definitly SHOWCASE #4 1st silverage Flash. This was the comic that brought back the popularity to the superhero. If it wasn't for Showcase #4 then there may not have been a FF or Spider-Man. If you want to put in order what silverage comics were the most important, it would be...

SHOWCASE #4

FF#1

AF#15

 

If you want to say what are more popular now I'd have to say...

AF#15

FF#1

SHOWCASE#4

 

 

[Crackandpresstoan11]

If you want to put in order what silverage comics were the most important, it would be...

SHOWCASE #4

FF#1

AF#15

 

Using your argument on Showcase vs FF, I would have to put B&B 28 as more important than FF #1 since there would be no FF without the JLA.

[Bugaboo-migration]

I was that kid going to the local drugstore buying comics after school and during lunch.

Oh man......I did the same exact thing. Bolt out of school and high-tail it to the drugstore over lunch to get the best selection.

 

And I agree with you......I collected Fantastic Four but never got into Spider-man even though Spidey is more collected today for the various reasons previously mentioned.

 

If someone were to lay out cgc 9.4 copies of each book in front of me and say "pick one for free" (well.....as long as I'm dreaming.....let's say they're 10.0 copies of each)........I'd choose the Fantastic Four #1. Actually......I'd probably wink at the person that had the books (to confuse them a little).........punch them in the throat.......and then grab both books and run......but that's just me.

[FlComicFan]

all three of those books have been valued about the same for the past 20 years or so. Showcase 4 is the first silver age book and without the Silver Age Flash success there wouldnt be anymor super heroes (arguably) FF 1 is the key Marvel title and historically the first 100 issues build the foundation for the Marvel universe Amazing Fantasy boasts the intro of the most popular character out of all three. Popularity wise I'd rank them Amazing Fantasy 15, FF 1, Showcase 4 Value wise market says thery rank very close. Importance wise I am not a DC fan but Showcase 4, FF 1 Amazing Fantasy 15. I'd pick Amazing 15 if I could own only one and over time it probably will pass the other two in value as Spidey keeps going and Flash and FF are losing relevance as far as current status

[Guest]

Holy Shlt......I actually agree with something Hammer has to say!!!! I also believe FF #1 is the biggest and most valuable Silver age book. If I had a choice between 9.6s of FF#1 or AF #15........I would definitely go with the FF #1. Just an opinion though.

[aardvark88]

Keep in mind that FF 1 came out in 1960 & ASM 1 not until 1963. I've been bustin' my chops for many years (pre-Cgc) looking for FF 2-12 without Marvel chipping. I am sure that if more early FF's surfaced in clean VF condition, no chips, UNtrimmed, there would be MANY active bidders. Heck, I'll even accept a date stamp.