ORIGINS of the American Comic Book 0

[Cat-Man_America]

Poor guy. An experience like that is likely to sour a newbie collector.

 

His zealotry about . was strange to witness.

 

it was indeed; it was my boy pons that was his leading foil in that long debate. i always felt pons won rather handlily on the abstract front; the market agreed via the shellacking he took selling them.

 

[font:Times New Roman]There's nothing less marketable than shellacked books.[/font]

[BOOT]

Scarce and obscure runs my wagon there, if nothing else, scroll some pretty rare stuff you might not see the rest of your life.

 

Bob, it is great to see you posting again. Glad your hips are swinging again, and best wishes for your daughter's recovery.

 

While your desire to refute every criticism in understandable, please feel free to ignore the petty stuff. I'd rather see you post more about comics!

 

BTW, here is another great contribution Bob made to comics knowledge, right here on these boards:

 

Atomic and Nuclear Comics Genre Index

 

bob, do NOT listen to this advice. your refutations make this board a better place.

He brings out the best in you!

[BOOT]

bob, about trusting your knowledge of victorian era kinda stuff, what did you tell our former boardie those obidiah oldbooks you sold him were worth?

I don't think you can lay the blame at Bob's feet for what that former boardie did. He was a one-man market drag as he overhyped his purchases so much. He didn't do a great job of defending his position, alienating many comic collectors in the process. And then he sold too soon after he acquired them. Had he bought an Action 1 and behaved the way he did, he might have taken a loss on that, too!

 

Is this about the guy who did the "Superman vs. Obadiah" thread way back when?

Yep, that was before my time on the boards. It was quite a spectacle!

[BLBcomics-migration]

Looking up for air, came to here to CGC Land for a few minutes. Re some one believing what i say or not, some one made observation another person was referring to something besides research conducted on a wide range of comics issues far beyond pushing back the parameters of the origins of the American comic book.

 

Well, i leave that concept to the one's whose opines I value the most, the so-far. so-good feedback in my e - Bay store where the bottom line resides what goes in to my bank account from satisfied customers many of whom are friends. Every one is entitled to opines, however warranted that opine might be.

 

Now, main reason typing here now: have not read thru all the responses, but seems a (hopefully) short reply is in order on the note of the Obadiah Oldbuck sales from 2005 and 06 are in order. I did not solicate selling my copies I used to own right before my hip joints blew out. The money I did taek in from them went in to buying more comics research materials as I had learned all i could from the originals I had been fortunate enough to score some years earlier.

 

Back in 2005 & 06 the real estate market was booming, agents & other middle men were raking in the loot. We all remember what happened next. However, prior to that, as I had been turning down eearlier offers as I was not in any need or desire to sell my three copies, this fellow came at me with offers I finally could nto turn down. $20K each for two nice ones, $10K for one with some ancient water coloring done in it. I was a relunctant dragon in this passion play.

 

My only regret in when this occurred is my hip joints blew out the following year, and, well, what I went thru is now receding in the rear view mirror it seems, knock on wood, all of that.

 

Here is some stuff on Obadiah Oldbuck which ran in the one thousand copy reprint edition my friend Alfredo Castelli of Sergio Bonelli publishers in Milan, Italy made up for the exact facsimile edition they mailed me 300 copies of, only about a dozen remain, they sold out years ago, my final 50 were stashed till i healed.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, in the first line of this next page of an english translation page inside back cover

which saw an identical Italian version inside front cover,

they made a grevious typo, the 1887 should read 1827

 

 

Here is a scan of the original cover to the 1842 Obadiah Oldbuck

which is one of the copies Steve made his offers on some thing I did not want to sell.

 

 

and now we have pages 28 and 29 in chrono order from inside this original OO scanned from the Italian reprint.

Tis a shame no USA publisher saw the importance of getting material printed on paper in to future generations.

Ahhh, those Romans, they understand history better than Americans, it seems

 

 

 

The first printing of Obadiah Oldbuck in 1842 in New York City has all the format pieces of wrap-around side-stitched, replete with six to 12 panels per page in one long story running a cover plus 39 pages, emphasis, one long story, a "graphic novel" of sorts.

 

Topffer's creation directly inspired a comic strip book business in six countries in those first years after he began making his stories. This is from the first one. His later ones - six and an unfinished partial at the time of his death - got better and better as he made new ones.

 

Rodolphe Topffer invented the mass produced comic strip book as we know it today thru a series of technical printing improvement evolution till we got to Famous Funnies in 1934. Even that does not look like the comic "book" magazines of today. But I digress..

 

Now, break time is over, back to work doing what I have done for 45 years now. Any one interested in further study really should join the PlatinumAgeComics list on yahoogroups.com and study the 30,000 plus posts archived there. Then you will know a healthy chunk of what I know regarding earlier comic books.

 

Simply an accident of birth. I learned from a host of guys no longer with us, friends like Bill Blackbeard, Ernie McGee, others to numerous to list here, nor do I wish to bor eany one.

 

 

[goldust40]

bob, about trusting your knowledge of victorian era kinda stuff, what did you tell our former boardie those obidiah oldbooks you sold him were worth?

I don't think you can lay the blame at Bob's feet for what that former boardie did. He was a one-man market drag as he overhyped his purchases so much. He didn't do a great job of defending his position, alienating many comic collectors in the process. And then he sold too soon after he acquired them. Had he bought an Action 1 and behaved the way he did, he might have taken a loss on that, too!

 

Nah, he would've at least broken even.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Hello jeff,

Am acknowledging your posting of these incredible Egyptian glyph books. There is not agrument here, I agree 99.99999% on that consensus. Neat thing about Topffer's comic books, especially his first one in 1827 is that his were the first "mass-produced" utilzing the earliest aspects of (stone) lithography ie writing/drawing directly on to a stone from whence 60-70 copies could be produced.

 

Every time he reprinted, he had to redraw his comic strip out on stones all over again. This is was I was told be Euro-experts on Topffer many of whom always thought it quaint many in America were psycho babbling about Yellow Kid for so long.

 

ALL other comic strip books prior to, as far as I have been told by my Euro friends were we hashed all this out on my PlatinumAgeComics list begun by yours truly in 1999, were one of a kind things. It was the techno break through where we plant a "first" marker down. Kind of like Gutenberg in a comic strip book sort of way.

 

This first American edition of Obadiah Oldbuck from 1842 fits most all the criteria one might bring up regarding printing formats, etc. Staples were not invented yet, they used string prior to. The 1842 Oldbuck first print is a bit less than Mad Magazine size.

 

That said, I have all sorts of stuff on learning how to read Egyptian heiroglyphs. Fascinating stuff, I moved way past USA 20th century comic books as a "hobby" a long time ago, hardly anything left to learn in that department.

 

re 450 AD use of word balloons, the examples Euro friends were showing on my Plat List, ie over on the visual aid yahoo list which I call PlatPics to archive beginning back in 1999 or so, there are words enclosed with "modern" looking word balloons. Uncanny, hope to bring samples here in a day or so when I have more time.

 

And thanks for the kind words re Katy. She is coming back from the brink, there is still much to do in that department. Here's hoping to a complete recovery by summer, though we take it all one day at a time.

 

 

 

Bob, welcome back. Jeff Shanks here. I haven't been around as much lately myself so I missed the SF thread until this morning. I just want to wish my best to Katy.

 

On the history of the "comic book" you I and debated this topic here years ago, and it is a fascinating one. But, ultimately it comes down to how one defines the term, and so there are as many "first comic books" as there are definitions for what a "comic book" is. Ultimately, it's a gradient as various forms of media that incorporate art and text evolved and changed over time. I think it's safe to say that when most people today use the word "comic book" they are talking about the modern comic book magazine format, which would make the first one FoP or maybe Detective Dan (if you're okay with the size). You use a much broader definition of "comic book" and that's okay too, just so everyone is clear on definitions.

 

I wanted to comment on a point you made in the SF/Reilly thread about the first use of word balloons being 450 BCE. I'd like to know more about this, but I would also suggest looking at the earlier Egyptian texts for prototypes. I know that Egyption wall painting and carving is often discussed as an early form of sequential art, but I would suggest that you also have examples of prototypical words balloons.

 

Below is reprint of the Ani Papyrus version of the Book of the Dead, which dates to the 19th Dynasty (ca. 1250 BCE). Not only is both the art and text integral to the larger narration and presented in sequential form (even in panels on some parts), but the small groupings of text near the figures heads represent dialogue that the figures are speaking. So while there is no actual "balloon" enclosing the text, those bits of dialogue next to the figures mouths certainly function in exactly the same way that word balloons do. Just something to consider.

 

 

 

The cool thing about these New Kingdom versions of the Book of the Dead is that they are not just wall carvings or paintings, but actual books in the form of scrolls. They are also not just one-off works of art, but a book which was produced in many copies. The original Ani Papyrus is actually nearly 80 feet long. This facsimile that I have is the Limited Editions Club version that came out in 1972 and it has a fold-out replica that is 17 feet long. So this would be the Archives/Masterworks reprint version of this ancient comic book.

 

 

 

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

bob, about trusting your knowledge of victorian era kinda stuff, what did you tell our former boardie those obidiah oldbooks you sold him were worth?

I don't think you can lay the blame at Bob's feet for what that former boardie did. He was a one-man market drag as he overhyped his purchases so much. He didn't do a great job of defending his position, alienating many comic collectors in the process. And then he sold too soon after he acquired them. Had he bought an Action 1 and behaved the way he did, he might have taken a loss on that, too!

 

I am moving past drama others choose to bring to the table. Their choice, I move on, I have been "given" another chance to "live" again, time is too short. My gig here is strictly comics history research sharing to teach those who might not know. Those dis/un-interested are free to move on with their lives. I know that is what I am concentrating on. As an old partner used to say, "We are up to today."

 

I wish to stress the above description of how those Obadiah Oldbuck sales came down to be pretty much spot on. I did my "gig" selling the world's most vauable comic book and garnering nationwide media coverage when I sold that super high grade Reilly Detective Comics 27 to Burrel Rowe (Thanks to Richard Evans for correcting that typo, truly, i mean it) for $2200 in May/June 1973.

 

I do not have the resources post medical scenarios to matriculate in that rarified world of today. I concentrate in teaching my customers buying comics from me what is inside the books. I feel fortunate I have been able to pay myself to be able to read comic books full time for over 40 years now

 

 

[Theagenes]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

[ciorac]

Poor guy. An experience like that is likely to sour a newbie collector.

 

His zealotry about . was strange to witness.

 

it was indeed; it was my boy pons that was his leading foil in that long debate. i always felt pons won rather handlily on the abstract front; the market agreed via the shellacking he took selling them.

 

 

Thanks Billy. It was great fun, and remains (I think) the only locked thread in the history of the Golden Age section of these boards.

 

In the defense of Showcase4, he did post a follow-up thread after the OO vs. Superman thread was locked where he admitted defeat and became an enthusiast of proper Golden Age comics. He went so far as to admit he was wrong about the importance of OO as compared to Action 1 in the history of comics in America. Quite refreshing to see such a change of heart and return to reason

 

I won't reopen the debate here, as my view of the history of comics in terms of America and others who view events separated by large amounts of time as related to one another in some crucial way do.

 

Suffice it to say that comparing what some see as comic books and seminal events in the chronology and relevance in our established landscape, is like comparing the siege of Alesia as a precursor to the Battle of the Bulge, since some of the same players were involved.

[tb]

[...]

 

On the history of the "comic book" you I and debated this topic here years ago, and it is a fascinating one. But, ultimately it comes down to how one defines the term, and so there are as many "first comic books" as there are definitions for what a "comic book" is. Ultimately, it's a gradient as various forms of media that incorporate art and text evolved and changed over time. I think it's safe to say that when most people today use the word "comic book" they are talking about the modern comic book magazine format, which would make the first one FoP or maybe Detective Dan (if you're okay with the size). You use a much broader definition of "comic book" and that's okay too, just so everyone is clear on definitions.

 

[...]

 

It is always nice when professionals chime in with their perspective. Speaking from my own collector's heart, the more I've learned about the evolution of the medium, the more disenchanted I've become with definitions. My own real passion is exploring the spectrum of formats and narrative techniques, the gradient of which eventually led to the publications that all of us enjoy talking about. It's that fascinating and never ending journey through pulps, books, magazines, movies, historical events etc. that keeps my own interest alive. When I dislike definitions so much, it's because they tend to compartmentalize the discussion, culling away all the wonderful blurring and context that I see as the life blood of the hobby.

[Theagenes]

[...]

 

On the history of the "comic book" you I and debated this topic here years ago, and it is a fascinating one. But, ultimately it comes down to how one defines the term, and so there are as many "first comic books" as there are definitions for what a "comic book" is. Ultimately, it's a gradient as various forms of media that incorporate art and text evolved and changed over time. I think it's safe to say that when most people today use the word "comic book" they are talking about the modern comic book magazine format, which would make the first one FoP or maybe Detective Dan (if you're okay with the size). You use a much broader definition of "comic book" and that's okay too, just so everyone is clear on definitions.

 

[...]

 

It is always nice when professionals chime in with their perspective. Speaking from my own collector's heart, the more I've learned about the evolution of the medium, the more disenchanted I've become with definitions. My own real passion is exploring the spectrum of formats and narrative techniques, the gradient of which eventually led to the publications that all of us enjoy talking about. It's that fascinating and never ending journey through pulps, books, magazines, movies, historical events etc. that keeps my own interest alive. When I dislike definitions so much, it's because they tend to compartmentalize the discussion, culling away all the wonderful blurring and context that I see as the life blood of the hobby.

 

tb, I wouldn't disagree with that at all and in fact your sentiment echos my own. You know the things I collect. I'm fascinated by the Platinum and pre-GA and all the various transitional and experimental formats. The only reason I emphasize defining your terms up front in this particular case is that back in that OO vs Action 1 thread we already spent months and several hundred pages arguing like this:

 

"This is a comic book"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

"NO it isn't!!

"YES it is!!"

Ad infinitum...

 

Ultimately what it came down to was a semantic disagreement about the term "comic book." Some people had a very specific and narrow definition and others had a much broader and more inclusive one. Neither side was wrong--there was just a language barrier. Once that was overcome and understood, I think it became easier to discuss, explore, and appreciate all of these amazing and related media formats regardless of what label you give them.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Theagenes

[goldust40]

[...]

 

On the history of the "comic book" you I and debated this topic here years ago, and it is a fascinating one. But, ultimately it comes down to how one defines the term, and so there are as many "first comic books" as there are definitions for what a "comic book" is. Ultimately, it's a gradient as various forms of media that incorporate art and text evolved and changed over time. I think it's safe to say that when most people today use the word "comic book" they are talking about the modern comic book magazine format, which would make the first one FoP or maybe Detective Dan (if you're okay with the size). You use a much broader definition of "comic book" and that's okay too, just so everyone is clear on definitions.

 

[...]

 

It is always nice when professionals chime in with their perspective. Speaking from my own collector's heart, the more I've learned about the evolution of the medium, the more disenchanted I've become with definitions. My own real passion is exploring the spectrum of formats and narrative techniques, the gradient of which eventually led to the publications that all of us enjoy talking about. It's that fascinating and never ending journey through pulps, books, magazines, movies, historical events etc. that keeps my own interest alive. When I dislike definitions so much, it's because they tend to compartmentalize the discussion, culling away all the wonderful blurring and context that I see as the life blood of the hobby.

 

tb, I wouldn't disagree with that at all and in fact your sentiment echos my own. You know the things I collect. I'm fascinated by the Platinum and pre-GA and all the various transitional and experimental formats. The only reason I emphasize defining your terms up front in this particular case is that back in that OO vs Action 1 thread we already spent months and several hundred pages arguing like this:

 

"This is a comic book"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

"NO it isn't!!

"YES it is!!"

Ad infinitum...

 

Ultimately what it came down to was a semantic disagreement about the term "comic book." Some people had a very specific and narrow definition and others had a much broader and more inclusive one. Neither side was wrong--there was just a language barrier. Once that was overcome and understood, I think it became easier to discuss, explore, and appreciate all of these amazing and related media formats regardless of what label you give them.

 

I think the best line of argument in the entire thread was "I know it when I see it".

[Theagenes]

[...]

 

On the history of the "comic book" you I and debated this topic here years ago, and it is a fascinating one. But, ultimately it comes down to how one defines the term, and so there are as many "first comic books" as there are definitions for what a "comic book" is. Ultimately, it's a gradient as various forms of media that incorporate art and text evolved and changed over time. I think it's safe to say that when most people today use the word "comic book" they are talking about the modern comic book magazine format, which would make the first one FoP or maybe Detective Dan (if you're okay with the size). You use a much broader definition of "comic book" and that's okay too, just so everyone is clear on definitions.

 

[...]

 

It is always nice when professionals chime in with their perspective. Speaking from my own collector's heart, the more I've learned about the evolution of the medium, the more disenchanted I've become with definitions. My own real passion is exploring the spectrum of formats and narrative techniques, the gradient of which eventually led to the publications that all of us enjoy talking about. It's that fascinating and never ending journey through pulps, books, magazines, movies, historical events etc. that keeps my own interest alive. When I dislike definitions so much, it's because they tend to compartmentalize the discussion, culling away all the wonderful blurring and context that I see as the life blood of the hobby.

 

tb, I wouldn't disagree with that at all and in fact your sentiment echos my own. You know the things I collect. I'm fascinated by the Platinum and pre-GA and all the various transitional and experimental formats. The only reason I emphasize defining your terms up front in this particular case is that back in that OO vs Action 1 thread we already spent months and several hundred pages arguing like this:

 

"This is a comic book"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

"NO it isn't!!

"YES it is!!"

Ad infinitum...

 

Ultimately what it came down to was a semantic disagreement about the term "comic book." Some people had a very specific and narrow definition and others had a much broader and more inclusive one. Neither side was wrong--there was just a language barrier. Once that was overcome and understood, I think it became easier to discuss, explore, and appreciate all of these amazing and related media formats regardless of what label you give them.

 

I think the best line of argument in the entire thread was "I know it when I see it".

 

Just like porn.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

 

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so.

 

The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present.

 

Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now.

[Theagenes]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

 

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so.

 

The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present.

 

Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now.

 

 

Ah, AD, not BC. I missread. I'll see if I can track it down.

 

 

Bob, on your second paragraph, I would very much agree that a higher monetary value does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance. I would also suggest, however, that being older or even first does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance either.

 

So I would disagree with your statement that OO is more "important" than Superman, simply because Superman has had a far greater impact on popular culture than OO.

 

OO is important and much more important than the character has been given credit for. And you should be given credit for bringing attention to that importance. But that importance is not due to one American bootleg version in 1842, but rather to the fact that it was one of Töpffer's more important comic strip works and due to his influence on the later European comic strip artists like Wilhelm Busch. You can trace a direct line from Töpffer to the Katzenjammer Kids, so there is no doubt he was an important pioneer. But to say OO is more historical significant than Superman is really over-reaching.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Theagenes

[RedFury]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

 

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so.

 

The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present.

 

Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now.

 

 

Ah, AD, not BC. I missread. I'll see if I can track it down.

 

 

Bob, on your second paragraph, I would very much agree that a higher monetary value does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance. I would also suggest, however, that being older or even first does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance either.

 

So I would disagree with your statement that OO is more "important" than Superman, simply because Superman has had a far greater impact on popular culture than OO.

 

OO is important and much more important than the character has been given credit for. And you should be given credit for bringing attention to that importance. But that importance is not due to one American bootleg version in 1842, but rather to the fact that it was one of Töpffer's more important comic strip works and due to his influence on the later European comic strip artists like Wilhelm Busch. You can trace a direct line from Töpffer to the Katzenjammer Kids, so there is no doubt he was an important pioneer. But to say OO is more historical significant than Superman is really over-reaching.

 

Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman.

 

After seven years, you've got to admire his dedication to his position, as untenable as it is.

[RedFury]

Poor guy. An experience like that is likely to sour a newbie collector.

 

His zealotry about . was strange to witness.

 

it was indeed; it was my boy pons that was his leading foil in that long debate. i always felt pons won rather handlily on the abstract front; the market agreed via the shellacking he took selling them.

 

And Pons was just 1 month into his CGC boards career. Probably the most epic newb postings ever!

[ciorac]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

 

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so.

 

The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present.

 

Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now.

 

 

Ah, AD, not BC. I missread. I'll see if I can track it down.

 

 

Bob, on your second paragraph, I would very much agree that a higher monetary value does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance. I would also suggest, however, that being older or even first does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance either.

 

So I would disagree with your statement that OO is more "important" than Superman, simply because Superman has had a far greater impact on popular culture than OO.

 

OO is important and much more important than the character has been given credit for. And you should be given credit for bringing attention to that importance. But that importance is not due to one American bootleg version in 1842, but rather to the fact that it was one of Töpffer's more important comic strip works and due to his influence on the later European comic strip artists like Wilhelm Busch. You can trace a direct line from Töpffer to the Katzenjammer Kids, so there is no doubt he was an important pioneer. But to say OO is more historical significant than Superman is really over-reaching.

 

Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman.

 

After seven years, you've got to admire his dedication to his position, as untenable as it is.

 

Or perhaps he found that long lost bottle of pain killers, and the former demetia has set back in

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

 

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so.

 

The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present.

 

Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now.

 

 

Ah, AD, not BC. I missread. I'll see if I can track it down.

 

 

Bob, on your second paragraph, I would very much agree that a higher monetary value does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance. I would also suggest, however, that being older or even first does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance either.

 

So I would disagree with your statement that OO is more "important" than Superman, simply because Superman has had a far greater impact on popular culture than OO.

 

OO is important and much more important than the character has been given credit for. And you should be given credit for bringing attention to that importance. But that importance is not due to one American bootleg version in 1842, but rather to the fact that it was one of Töpffer's more important comic strip works and due to his influence on the later European comic strip artists like Wilhelm Busch. You can trace a direct line from Töpffer to the Katzenjammer Kids, so there is no doubt he was an important pioneer. But to say OO is more historical significant than Superman is really over-reaching.

 

Meant to type the Obadiah comic book ushering in "new" technology for comic books to be able to be mass prodiced in relation to Action Comics #1 as a periodical which was just one more of hundreds of thousands of titles and numbers of the same format produced over the past 170+ years, which places the proper wrinkle in my intent. re oldbuck related to Superman as characters of world wide importance, hands down, no possible argument could refute your statement which i see as a clarification of my intent.

 

Way I see it the "famous funnies" news stand format which MC Gaines spoke of in his supposed "origins" of how Famous Funnies came to be created as a format is nothing more or less than late model "dime novel" of a slick cover, side stitched with two staples and a pulp paper interior. This BS he wrote about of folding down a Sunday comics section to get there is just that, so much BS. My opine.

 

Which leads me to a little personal list I am sharing here re comic books of absolute time line importance, at least in the USA:

 

1) 1842 Obadiah Oldbuck - first comic book in America

2) 1849 Journey to the Gold Diggins Jeremiah Saddlebags

- first original USA comic book directly inspired by Oldbuck

3) 1903 Buster Brown & His Resolutions - first nationally distributed comic book

4) 1938 Action Comics #1 - Superman ushers in a glut of comic books

5) 1952 Mad Comics #1 - nuff said

6) 1968 Zap Comics #1 - intro creator owned, royalty paying comics,

- creation of the Direct Market when Print Mint took #2 plus #1 and #0 reprints "national" distribution

[goldust40]

Bob what is the 450 BCE example? Do you have an image? It sounds pretty cool.

 

Boot, in answer to your question, yes I can read the the translation and follow along more or less, but only because I've taken a number of graduate level classes on Egyptian religion, language, art, and history as well as considerable independent research (my MA thesis was on the cult of Isis in the Roman Empire). It's not really a straightforward prose-style narrative, though it does describe the journey of the deceased (in this case the scribe Ani) through the afterlife. This is depicted with a sequence of scenes or vignettes, so it is sequential art. But it also includes spells and incantations that Ani must say at certain stages in the process.

 

I would have to go in to the Plat list archives, type in some key word search trips, re-find the 450 AD word balloon example(s) some one posted there about a decade ago now, then post. Will try to get to it next day or so.

 

The examples were drawn on a wall dating to late Roman Empire period. The words were there with lines drawn around them with a pointed end pointing at who ever was speaking. The wheel is constantly re-invented, what is "new" is most always quite old, is how I see most "innovations" some generations seek to present.

 

Anyway, the comic strip comic books have been around a ga-zillion years now. Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman. A collector dealer friend pointed out to me last night that I think he said it was on a recent Comic Connect auction which had a Flash Comics #1 sell for approx $70K that a number of Silver Age comics sold for more. The price of some thing has zero to do with its "importance" as an aercheological artifact. But that is all in the eye of the beholder and what one might deem "important" - just an opine from this dinosaur comic book dealer collector working in a hobby which got way out of hand a very long time ago now.

 

 

Ah, AD, not BC. I missread. I'll see if I can track it down.

 

 

Bob, on your second paragraph, I would very much agree that a higher monetary value does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance. I would also suggest, however, that being older or even first does not necessarily equate with greater historical significance either.

 

So I would disagree with your statement that OO is more "important" than Superman, simply because Superman has had a far greater impact on popular culture than OO.

 

OO is important and much more important than the character has been given credit for. And you should be given credit for bringing attention to that importance. But that importance is not due to one American bootleg version in 1842, but rather to the fact that it was one of Töpffer's more important comic strip works and due to his influence on the later European comic strip artists like Wilhelm Busch. You can trace a direct line from Töpffer to the Katzenjammer Kids, so there is no doubt he was an important pioneer. But to say OO is more historical significant than Superman is really over-reaching.

 

Obadiah Oldbuck remains more important than Superman.

 

After seven years, you've got to admire his dedication to his position, as untenable as it is.

 

We've been there and done that. Clearly OO is more important than Superman, it is a comic-book as we all recognize it, the history and development of the medium is set in stone and has continuity and is not random under any circumstances. Pop culture began in the mid-nineteenth century and is quite easy to intellectualize about from a 21st century perspective. Populism means nothing. OO begat everything. The end.