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is staple reinforcement resto?

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So I was surfing on Metro's site and saw that Suspense #3 VG they've got listed for 6k...pretty sweet! Anyhow, the notes say it's got "slight staple reinforcement." Would CGC count this as restoration and slap this book with a purple label? Is staple reinforcement considered restoration or conservation? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

shrunken

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So I was surfing on Metro's site and saw that Suspense #3 VG they've got listed for 6k...pretty sweet! Anyhow, the notes say it's got "slight staple reinforcement." Would CGC count this as restoration and slap this book with a purple label? Is staple reinforcement considered restoration or conservation? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

shrunken

 

Yes, it would most likely get a PLOD (Purple Label of Doom), especially if there was paper reinforcement using japan paper or whatever. If there's a spot of glue holding a tear together or something like that, CGC may, at their discretion, assign it a Universal label. CGC doesn't really address the issue of restoration vs. conservation.

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Thanks Dr. Banner, now I can cross that book off my list of "books I'd like to own if I could ever possibly afford them! juggle.gif

 

I would think on such a difficult book, restoration would be less of an issue, anyone?

 

Agreed...GPA shows a 2.5 sold for $4,300 in June, and a 4.5 sold for $11k last year. The price of an unrestored copy and the scarcity of any copy make this one a book that may appeal to some collectors.

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Hmm....a very good point, granted. Given the scarcity of the book, the resto is easier to overlook....but still, I can think of a lot of unrestored, great GA books that I could pick up for 6k (although precious few have the namebrand appeal of a Suspense 3!)...it's a tough call, to be sure.

 

I wonder, can staple reinforcement be undone by someone like Matt Nelson? Or would that call for completely taking apart the book?

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This is an interesting question.

 

The current CGC standard seems to be that if a professional uses reversible, archival methods to re-enforce staples (or to seal a tear), then it is a certain purple label.

 

But, isn't it true that a small amount of non-archival tape or even glue at the staples on a GA might wind up with a Universal? Seems like a double standard that will need to be reconsidered down the line. Right now, they are basically saying that if you do a crappy job of conserving a book it's OK (i.e. Universal), but if you do it in a way that preserves the original integrity of the copy, it's a PLOD.

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But, isn't it true that a small amount of non-archival tape or even glue at the staples on a GA might wind up with a Universal? Seems like a double standard that will need to be reconsidered down the line. Right now, they are basically saying that if you do a crappy job of conserving a book it's OK (i.e. Universal), but if you do it in a way that preserves the original integrity of the copy, it's a PLOD.

 

As far as tape goes, that is my impression as well. Just because collectors in the real old days used scotch tape to seal tears etc. doesn't dictate that such are not restoration - and ths is what I have been lead to believe.

 

Anyone at CGC who can correct me on this please do!

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There is one book in Heritage auction archives, PLOD with notation "4 dots of glue on staples" (or something similar)

It was later submitted and graded universal with notation "4 pieces of tape on centerfold/staples". ??? etc. I wonder who insufficiently_thoughtful_person did that "restoration removal" mad.gif

 

Luckily grade was hammered down two full grades, but it still sold for couple of hundred dollars more than first time. 893whatthe.gif

 

Unfortunately I lost scans when my hard disk crashed 893frustrated.gif and I can't find it from Heritage database any more.

 

Edit: two full grades= 4 grade notches (example 7.5 --> 5.5) If my memory serves me correctly there was also some color touch removed.

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Sure it is "restoration"....but like having a knee operation ./....what was done?....i think in the GA arena that PLOD is all overdone....Can you find the book? Do you want the book? Then it becomes a matter of "valuing" the book. If there was only one copy of a book, would you buy it if it was restored? If there were 5?...anyway you get my bias.....If possession of the book- rare as it is- is what you are looking for or are you frozen by the attitude("oh my god, will i ever be able to resell it when i tire of it...") ....It becomes a matter of different strokes for different folks...I think if a "restoration scale" (R-1 to R-10) is ever established that these work with "slight" work will not be the lepers that they seem to be....The "conditionitis" of the SA has cause an over reaction in GA where the population of books is less. I am not saying it should not effect "value", but some sensible middleground is needed.....Jon

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I think if a "restoration scale" (R-1 to R-10) is ever established that these work with "slight" work will not be the lepers that they seem to be....The "conditionitis" of the SA has cause an over reaction in GA where the population of books is less. I am not saying it should not effect "value", but some sensible middleground is needed.....Jon

 

Jon;

 

I knew you would be a welcome addition to these boards. We 've already had extensive discussions on the current indiscriminate use of the PLOD versus a formalized restoration rating system. I brought up your concept of the 10-point restoration rating system as outlined in your CBM article.

 

Unfortunately, most of the board members were strongly against a one-colour label system incorporating a restoration rating system because they viewed it as an attempt at blurring the lines between a restored and an unrestored book. Seeing as how we are all intelligent adults here who can read, they felt it was still necessary to use colour flash cards to highlight the restored books. 893frustrated.gif

 

Personally, I am in full agreement with a restoration rating sytem and feel that it only makes sense by providing a level playing field for both restored and unrestored books. It would also allow the prospective buyer to make a more informed purchasing decision based upon both the type and extent of restoration. The one-colour label system would also remove the stigma currently attached to the restored books and allow the marketplace to more fairly determine an unbiased price without the negative branding from CGC. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

We may actually learn to purchase the book as opposed to buying the label, and wouldn't that be a novel concept to consider. Collectors would no longer toss books with tiny tear seals into the same dirty bath water as books with extensive repairs and trimming. GA books with R-3 levels of restoration may be deemed just as acceptable as GA books with condition grades of 9.0. Modern age books, on the other hand, with even R-1 levels of restoration will have just as much value as MA books with a condition grade of 9.2 (i.e. worthless). The bottom-line is that the marketplace is sophisicated enough to incorporate a 10-point restoration rating system similar to how it was sophisicated enough to incorporate a 10-point condition grading system and value books according to each collector's individual threshold levels of acceptability. 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Hey, maybe it's time to start another thread on this topic since I may have another proponent for my side. Unfortunately, Timely won't be able to publicly support us anymore since he has now been assimilated by the Dark Side at CGC. 27_laughing.gif

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Thanks for the response. I had no idea that it had been discussed so exhaustively. CGC is a grading "service"; it does not value books or decide what the market will pay for a "restored" book....lets leave out modern, bronze, copper, silver and radioactive ages and discuss hard core GA....I am simply stating that it is okay to note a book is 'restored' (thank you CGC for that great service), but all restoration is not alike...sure you can find 1000 copies of Spidey 33 in VF/NM and thus a restored book has little "value". But in the GA it may be just being able to find the book. A slight tear on the meniscus is different than knee replacement.

 

All I am suggesting, is that a book with staple replacement is "less restored" than a book with color touch or one with chip replacement. Why cannot (and does not) the market place note that the former book with the least restoration (R-1) may only lose 15% of a book with non-restored value (Arbitrary number for discussion purposes, rather than treating the book as a leper and in essence suggest it is unworthy of collectiblility. )

 

All I am suggesting it is time to get a bit more sophisticated in the hobby, particularly in the GA market where comic population do not compare to their silver age brethern.

 

 

Say amen! Jon

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All I am suggesting, is that a book with staple replacement is "less restored" than a book with color touch or one with chip replacement. Why cannot (and does not) the market place note that the former book with the least restoration (R-1) may only lose 15% of a book with non-restored value (Arbitrary number for discussion purposes, rather than treating the book as a leper and in essence suggest it is unworthy of collectiblility. )

 

I'll tell you, I have been something similar since day one (well, maybe day 14) here. But I kind of took it a step further.

 

I consider pressing, be it a small localized press or the entire book, restoration. I consider cleaning (and here I mean any cleaning that requires more than just brushing off some crumbs etc) restoration. The same with replacing staples.

 

What DOES rub my rhubarb, so to speak, (yeah - this is POV's old song again and again) is that restoration has such a bad name, some folks will not consider such very mild processes restoration if it goes undetected by grading companies.

 

It basically shows a true lack of understanding and a blind adherence to the anti-restoration party line - which is this: "If it is called restoration it is not acceptable. If it is not called restoration it is acceptable."

 

I find this thinking - to be polite - insane. crazy.gif And again it is why the purple label pretty much always yields low percentages of guide.

 

I say - if your book has been pressed or cleaned or had the staples replaced - the book has been restored.

 

It is WAY beyond time for people to understand and accept what restoration really is. Dag Nab It!

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Thanks Dr. Banner, now I can cross that book off my list of "books I'd like to own if I could ever possibly afford them! juggle.gif

 

I would think on such a difficult book, restoration would be less of an issue, anyone?

 

Yeah normally I stay away from restos but I haven't seen any other copies around.

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I agree with you JB. Scarcity should always be a consideration and the level of restoration (slight, moderate, extensive),professional over amatuer. I've gotten some nice books relitively cheaply due to the anti-restoration sentiment, most recently a Daring Mystery Comics # 2 (Gerber 8).

 

I believe the real root to the problem with restoration, which has really given it a bad name, was the selling of restored books without disclosure. Too late to put the genie back in the bottle now.

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I believe the real root to the problem with restoration, which has really given it a bad name, was the selling of restored books without disclosure. Too late to put the genie back in the bottle now.

 

You know? I have been hearing that reason for some time now but only since CGC started grading and giving resto'd books the PLOD. (I mean, why do we call it "of Death"?)

 

Because back in the days before CGC and with the Sotheby and similar auctions, the restoration was announced and the restorer was as well (at least when possible). That had no impact on the interest in the books, and restoration by a leading restorer was actually a selling point.

 

But now we DO have the situation you explained where a lot of books were restored without disclosure. So what happened? All of the books WITH disclosure, where the biddrs knew and appreiated a particualr restorer's ability, are nopw all just plugged ito the "resto freak" category.

 

It really makes no sense but with one exception: the PLOD has killed restored books. Not restoration itself.

 

Sorry to harp opn the same old thing but what to do? Must express myself.

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POV, you are correct to make that point. The PLOD has definatly had an effect.

 

Thanks for taking my comment in the right spirit, Fuel! Yes, I feel the PLOD has had a most remarkable effect. It would be so interesting to see what would happen if CGC just went to a blue colored label - title it Apparant or Qualified etc but keep the color blue - and see how the buying goes.

 

Unfortunately, I don;t see that happening since CGC said they elimainted the Alpha Grades (G, VG, F etc) from their "new label" because some people thought the "minus" in a 9.2 NM- was a nagative thing.

 

Honestly cannot believe they did that but they did. So if they are gonna cave to such a ridiculous criteria as THAT - well - obviously the colored labels will continue, because apparantly we are incapable of reading notations and must be guided by colors to what is what. mad.gif

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POV, you are correct to make that point. The PLOD has definatly had an effect.

 

Thanks for taking my comment in the right spirit, Fuel! Yes, I feel the PLOD has had a most remarkable effect. It would be so interesting to see what would happen if CGC just went to a blue colored label - title it Apparant or Qualified etc but keep the color blue - and see how the buying goes.

 

I think we already know what will happen just based upon past experience. Blue label books with very very slight restoration work still tends to go for slightly higher than guide. Examples of this would include books from prior Heritage auctions denoted with small amounts of glue still achieving guide prices in spite of the blue label.

 

The classic example here would be the Church copy of More Fun #52 which had no problem going for substantially over guide since it had been blessed with the blue label even though it had small amounts of various work done to it. The Church copy of Adventure Comics #40, on the other hand, was avoid at all costs even if it is the best copy in the world, just because it had been branded with a purple label even though it had only small amounts of minor restoration.

 

So yes, CGC has unintentionally affected the prices on restored books through their dual colour label system and should adopt a system in which the marketplace becomes the arbiter of a book's value. An unified colour label system with a formalized restoration rating and restoration notes would provide more relevant information to the buyer in making his purchasing decision, instead of the stigmitization by CGC with their current use of colour flash cards.

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