Miller/Janson DD? 3 3

[alxjhnsn]

[

 

Anyone want to take on What If or Warlock/Starlin/Milgrom?

 

Now THAT's a deep and churning sea. Add the names Leialoha and Weiss to that, btw.

 

You are correct, Glen, I was sloppy. Let's try it again:

 

Anyone want to take on "What If" by Miller and/or Warlock by Starlin/Milgrom/Leiaoha/Weiss/etc? I'll take notes.

 

[heartened]

A few of us talked at length with Klaus today on this subject. We had some #176 pages with us (that we know are Miller layouts on the board), I brought my #181 page (which was one of the issues that we weren't sure about) and Nelson brought a bunch of his photocopied Miller pencils with him as well. After reviewing the artwork and the photocopies, Klaus believes that the separate sheet layouts started with #185 after all. He said that his & Frank's artistic relationship was a progression, so that when Frank went to the separate sheet layouts, they never went back to layouts on board. As such, since we know from Nelson's archives that #182 and #184 were both Miller pencils on the board, we can deduce that #185 was the start of the separate sheet layouts.

 

Furthermore, Klaus said that the handwritten "DAREDEVIL" at the top of pages was written by Frank when he did pencils on the board (at some point this becomes "DAREDEVIL" using a rubber stamp). But, you'll notice from #185 that it became handwritten again - "DD #___" is what it says for a few issues before it becomes "Daredevil" written in -script. The latter is definitely confirmed to be Klaus' notation on pages done with separate sheet layouts, and it stands to reason that the former is also Klaus, as it's not Frank's writing. I think this bolsters the case for #185 being the start.

 

As for Klaus getting all of the #181 art back, he confirmed that sometimes they would trade off getting full books as opposed to splitting up the pages in each issue. So, even if he got the whole #181 book back, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank didn't do pencils on the board.

 

Bottom line: I'm satisfied at this point that any stylistic changes we see between #178 and #179-#184 is just the progression of the artwork over time and that separate sheet layouts did begin with #185 after all.

 

Such a long thread and we've come back to the same conclusion we all "knew" 10 years ago. The transition was between 184 and 185. Geez.

 

 

[malvin]

 

Such a long thread and we've come back to the same conclusion we all "knew" 10 years ago. The transition was between 184 and 185. Geez.

 

 

yes, but now we are "sure"

 

Malvin

[alxjhnsn]

 

Such a long thread and we've come back to the same conclusion we all "knew" 10 years ago. The transition was between 184 and 185. Geez.

 

 

yes, but now we are "sure"

 

Malvin

 

And we've documented why were are sure.

[lb jefferies]

Joe just broke the internets with this one: http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1178089

[delekkerste]

Joe just broke the internets with this one: http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1178089

 

I thought Kim Kardashian already broke it earlier this week?

[lb jefferies]

Joe just broke the internets with this one: http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1178089

 

I thought Kim Kardashian already broke it earlier this week?

 

It's been a tough week for the internets

[Michael Browning]

Okay, I have a question about a page from DD 177. This is one of the flashback scenes, where Matt is bullied by some kids. He is pictured as a kid in his DD suit being pushed over in the top tier and then in the bottom 2/3s of the page, he's shooting the arrow under Stick's guidance. The top, flashback tier is done on craftint paper and looks to be all Miller pencils and inks, as was pointed out to me last year. The bottom tier is most definitely by Miller AND Janson, as you can see the styles change with the inks being much different on the bottom 2/3s.

The top tier is on craftint paper and has been taped onto the regular comic art board. The arrow that DD is shooting has been cut out from the regular paper and the shaft and arrowhead have been laid on top of the craftint paper.

The top and bottom styles aren't even close to one another.

Can anyone tell me any information about the art from DD 177 and who drew what? I have attached photos so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[alxjhnsn]

Hi, Michael,

I was about to post the question for you. I'll record the answer (and update the links) once the Vast Unpaid Research Department speaks!

[Michael Browning]

10 minutes ago, alxjhnsn said:

Hi, Michael,

I was about to post the question for you. I'll record the answer (and update the links) once the Vast Unpaid Research Department speaks!

Thank you, sir! I appreciate the help. I'm also posting some pics of my DD 181 page on another thread that deals with this very same subject and I'll post them here, too.

[Michael Browning]

Alex,

On another thread about this very same subject, you asked me to give you specifics about the DD 181 page I own and the pencils that are underneath so you can note them in your research.

I have looked at the DD 181 page I own very closely and pencils are clearly seen under the inks and outside the inks, where Janson hadn't fully erased them. The pencils are most evident in the knee/leg of Bullseye as he runs out of the room in the last panel, in Foggy's hair and in Matt's hand in the next-to-last panel and in Bullseye's hand in the third tier panel. I have attached photos so you can see. My apologies if these are too large. I took them with my iPhone, so I hope that they are viewable.

I do believe these are Miller pencils under the Janson inks as I cannot imagine why Janson would do pencils if he lightboxed this page from Miller pencils drawn on another, smaller sheet.

[stinkininkin]

6 hours ago, Michael Browning said:

Okay, I have a question about a page from DD 177. This is one of the flashback scenes, where Matt is bullied by some kids. He is pictured as a kid in his DD suit being pushed over in the top tier and then in the bottom 2/3s of the page, he's shooting the arrow under Stick's guidance. The top, flashback tier is done on craftint paper and looks to be all Miller pencils and inks, as was pointed out to me last year. The bottom tier is most definitely by Miller AND Janson, as you can see the styles change with the inks being much different on the bottom 2/3s.

The top tier is on craftint paper and has been taped onto the regular comic art board. The arrow that DD is shooting has been cut out from the regular paper and the shaft and arrowhead have been laid on top of the craftint paper.

The top and bottom styles aren't even close to one another.

Can anyone tell me any information about the art from DD 177 and who drew what? I have attached photos so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I'd like to think I have a pretty good eye for inks.  Also, I've specifically studied Janson and Miller inks intensively for professional reasons and also because I'm a big collector of their work.  I see no evidence of Miller's hand in the inks on the craft tint portions of the page.  It all looks 100% like Janson on inks to my eye.  I'd happily bet money on it, I'm so certain.

Scott

 

 

[artdealer]

56 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

I'd like to think I have a pretty good eye for inks.  Also, I've specifically studied Janson and Miller inks intensively for professional reasons and also because I'm a big collector of their work.  I see no evidence of Miller's hand in the inks on the craft tint portions of the page.  It all looks 100% like Janson on inks to my eye.  I'd happily bet money on it, I'm so certain.

Scott

 

 

Scott,

You would make easy money. No Miller inks on this page.

[alxjhnsn]

I've fixed some of the links (and dropped some, I'll try to add them later). I've also addressed the covers.

However, the text editing options on the new board are a pain and a paste from MS Word doesn't work at all.  It won't accept MS Word files as an attachment (reasonable).

I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

[alxjhnsn]

I do have the write-up as an MS Word file if anyone wants a copy. Just PM me with your email address.

[VintageComics]

On 5/8/2013 at 11:47 AM, delekkerste said:

comix4fun said:

I am not seeing all Janson that early, at least not on all the issues he mentioned.

 

I agree. DD #181 not touched by Miller? I don't believe it.

Just getting caught up on this discussion but it's not hard to real Miller pencils from the ones that were 'loosely' done and mostly finished by Janson. That much I know. I can generally spot them from a quick look at any DD run printed page.

[VintageComics]

On 6/24/2017 at 11:33 AM, Michael Browning said:

Okay, I have a question about a page from DD 177. This is one of the flashback scenes, where Matt is bullied by some kids. He is pictured as a kid in his DD suit being pushed over in the top tier and then in the bottom 2/3s of the page, he's shooting the arrow under Stick's guidance. The top, flashback tier is done on craftint paper and looks to be all Miller pencils and inks, as was pointed out to me last year. The bottom tier is most definitely by Miller AND Janson, as you can see the styles change with the inks being much different on the bottom 2/3s.

The top tier is on craftint paper and has been taped onto the regular comic art board. The arrow that DD is shooting has been cut out from the regular paper and the shaft and arrowhead have been laid on top of the craftint paper.

The top and bottom styles aren't even close to one another.

Can anyone tell me any information about the art from DD 177 and who drew what? I have attached photos so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

To me, this is mostly Janson. Once you know how Miller draws anatomy (and I don't see any in here) it becomes easy to spot.

On 6/24/2017 at 12:10 PM, Michael Browning said:

Alex,

On another thread about this very same subject, you asked me to give you specifics about the DD 181 page I own and the pencils that are underneath so you can note them in your research.

I have looked at the DD 181 page I own very closely and pencils are clearly seen under the inks and outside the inks, where Janson hadn't fully erased them. The pencils are most evident in the knee/leg of Bullseye as he runs out of the room in the last panel, in Foggy's hair and in Matt's hand in the next-to-last panel and in Bullseye's hand in the third tier panel. I have attached photos so you can see. My apologies if these are too large. I took them with my iPhone, so I hope that they are viewable.

I do believe these are Miller pencils under the Janson inks as I cannot imagine why Janson would do pencils if he lightboxed this page from Miller pencils drawn on another, smaller sheet.

This is pure Miller pencils. Easy to tell as Janson didn't draw anatomy like that (especially hands - those are pure Miller hands)

I remember buying the issues off the newsstands with great anticipation but it was easy to tell that #185 was where the  big change happened (and some parts of the #170s)

Thanks for the great read, gang!

Apologies for the thread necromancy!