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Miller/Janson DD?
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257 posts in this topic

Googling "Janson Miller Daredevil thumbnails" gave me this. Here's Janson in 2012:

 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/02/23/frantic-as-a-cardiograph-scratching-out-the-lines-day-54-daredevil-172/#comment-885952

 

The money quote:

 

"Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185. And he was doing breakdowns on the boards for a handful of issues before that."

 

 

 

So it sounds like Frank did layouts on the same boards for a while, then starting with #179 (or #185?) he did them on separate, smaller sheets of paper.

 

 

 

The Daredevil #181 title splash credits "Story & Art" to Miller and "Finished Art & Colors" to Janson.

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7063&lotNo=92224

 

If what Klaus Janson is saying above is true, then Daredevil #181 is one of the issues that Frank Miller created layouts on smaller 8 1/2 x 11 pieces of paper. I find it very interesting that all original art for DD #181 was penciled by Janson only, and Miller never actually touched the art boards for this important issue.

 

 

 

I've seen the OA from all parts of the run and you can tell the difference between early Miller pencils on the run, then where he hit his stride , and from the end where it was basically all Janson.

 

I am not seeing all Janson that early, at least not on all the issues he mentioned.

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Hi Glen, just an FYI: The topic is addressed in the Daredevil Omnibus.

 

As part of the 'Bonus Material' they publish the thumbnails to EACH of the 38 pages of DD190, side-by-side with their accompanying Color guide (which were done on the finished inked work).

 

Some are very similar, some are very different. It's a great way to train your eye to learn the changes (facial stucture, anatomy, lighting) that Klaus made when he pencilled those books. (sorry for the blurred edges... those omnibus books are hardly scanner-friendly)

 

 

DD190.jpg

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Franks layouts were pretty tight. Even though these later issues are my favorite of the run artistically, If I were buying pages from this period , i'd pay less than i would for pages miller penciled on board. I love Klaus but he's not Miller.

 

My question how would collectors value Millers layouts compared to the published art?

Edited by KingKoa
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J Sid - do you mind posting page 31? It's the "a heartbeat...!" page. I have that one. Thanks.

 

 

I think this is the one you've got... (I tried this one with a cell-phone pic this time)

 

ddp27.jpg

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Thanks!!! Really cool to see!

 

J Sid - do you mind posting page 31? It's the "a heartbeat...!" page. I have that one. Thanks.

 

 

I think this is the one you've got... (I tried this one with a cell-phone pic this time)

 

ddp27.jpg

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I'm blanking right now, but I recall allegations that there was at least one surrealist artist who, in his later years, had assistants do his artwork and he simply signed the finished pieces. Those later pieces now sell for a fraction of his authenticated artwork, and rightly so.

 

I believe that was Picasso wasn't it?

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I am not seeing all Janson that early, at least not on all the issues he mentioned.

 

I agree. DD #181 not touched by Miller? I don't believe it.

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I'm blanking right now, but I recall allegations that there was at least one surrealist artist who, in his later years, had assistants do his artwork and he simply signed the finished pieces. Those later pieces now sell for a fraction of his authenticated artwork, and rightly so.

 

I believe that was Picasso wasn't it?

 

I thought so, but I tried to verify it online and google didn't turn up anything.

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Googling "Janson Miller Daredevil thumbnails" gave me this. Here's Janson in 2012:

 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/02/23/frantic-as-a-cardiograph-scratching-out-the-lines-day-54-daredevil-172/#comment-885952

 

The money quote:

 

"Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185. And he was doing breakdowns on the boards for a handful of issues before that."

 

 

 

So it sounds like Frank did layouts on the same boards for a while, then starting with #179 (or #185?) he did them on separate, smaller sheets of paper.

 

 

The Daredevil #181 title splash credits "Story & Art" to Miller and "Finished Art & Colors" to Janson.

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7063&lotNo=92224

 

If what Klaus Janson is saying above is true, then Daredevil #181 is one of the issues that Frank Miller created layouts on smaller 8 1/2 x 11 pieces of paper. I find it very interesting that all original art for DD #181 was penciled by Janson only, and Miller never actually touched the art boards for this important issue.

 

 

 

This would be a new one. Not ideal, but ultimately, #181 is still #181. The story hasn't changed and it's the story we all remember. In the long run, I don't see value or demand affected that much.

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I'm blanking right now, but I recall allegations that there was at least one surrealist artist who, in his later years, had assistants do his artwork and he simply signed the finished pieces. Those later pieces now sell for a fraction of his authenticated artwork, and rightly so.

 

I believe that was Picasso wasn't it?

 

I thought so, but I tried to verify it online and google didn't turn up anything.

 

Picasso would never have done that.

 

Dali signed thousands of blank sheets and there are a lot of fake prints and drawings out there. I'm sure the details are available online.

 

As for having assistants do most of the heavy lifting, that could describe any number of Modern/contemporary artists, from Warhol to Kostabi to Hirst and Murakami.

 

I hear what Alex is saying about comic art being a collaborative process, though the art market does still distinguish how much of the master's direct hand is evident, going back to the Old Masters like Rubens who had a large circle of assistants who worked on a lot of his paintings. So it is in comic art as well, and is likely to be going forward. That said, I think the later DD art is still very high quality, very Miller-esque (coming from his layouts, of course) and is still very nostalgic/memorable. So, it's not surprising to me to have seen prices jump to where they are now on some of the later material even without Miller's direct hand.

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I was going to mention that it was Dali who had been reportedly forced to have signed lots of blank canvas, most likely at the insistance of his guardians in his later years. This leaves most art dealers/collectors skeptical of later year Dali art.

 

In regards to the Miller/Janson Daredevil situation, I do think it is an important factor is Miller did the original pencils, layouts, and most importantly if they were on the same page or not.

 

Don

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As for having assistants do most of the heavy lifting, that could describe any number of Modern/contemporary artists, from Warhol to Kostabi to Hirst and Murakami.

 

I hear what Alex is saying about comic art being a collaborative process, though the art market does still distinguish how much of the master's direct hand is evident, going back to the Old Masters like Rubens who had a large circle of assistants who worked on a lot of his paintings. So it is in comic art as well, and is likely to be going forward. That said, I think the later DD art is still very high quality, very Miller-esque (coming from his layouts, of course) and is still very nostalgic/memorable. So, it's not surprising to me to have seen prices jump to where they are now on some of the later material even without Miller's direct hand.

 

I concur.

 

As for Dali/Picasso, I knew about Dali signing blank sheets under duress, but that's not what I was referring to. It was a case of an artist in his later years signing finished art that his studio had pumped out. Quite a bit of it, from what I recall. Wish I could find the reference...

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As for having assistants do most of the heavy lifting, that could describe any number of Modern/contemporary artists, from Warhol to Kostabi to Hirst and Murakami.

 

I hear what Alex is saying about comic art being a collaborative process, though the art market does still distinguish how much of the master's direct hand is evident, going back to the Old Masters like Rubens who had a large circle of assistants who worked on a lot of his paintings. So it is in comic art as well, and is likely to be going forward. That said, I think the later DD art is still very high quality, very Miller-esque (coming from his layouts, of course) and is still very nostalgic/memorable. So, it's not surprising to me to have seen prices jump to where they are now on some of the later material even without Miller's direct hand.

 

I concur.

 

As for Dali/Picasso, I knew about Dali signing blank sheet under duress, but that's not what I was referring to. It was a case of an artist in his later years signing finished art that his studio had pumped out. Quite a bit of it, from what I recall. Wish I could find the reference...

 

In his later years, Matisse used to lie in bed in his studio and direct his assistants to create his murals and paintings (mainly because he was old and was no longer healthy enough to do the work himself).

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I'm not quite sure what the point is of bringing in artists like Dali and like to this discussion. Those are situations of outright fraud and misrepresentation. Here, it was more of a means to an end, and Miller's hand is all over the art whether he actually touched it or not.

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In any case, my original question was whether Frank Miller had done the 190 splash as the auction currently indicates. It seems like this is what happened: starting with issue #185 (or #179, but #185 for sure), Miller drew thumbnails. Janson then penciled and inked the finished page on a separate piece of paper. We can debate how to credit it or whether that means the page's value changes, but just for information's sake, it would be helpful to have that knowledge at hand.

 

Does that summary sound about right?

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