CGC Case Indentations 0

[silverweb]

I think its ugly and should be fixed permanently. We, the customers, are used to a smooth, unblemished surface on the inner well.

 

Will wait to hear what Joey finds out.

[Tom473]

Well, I received my first submission back today. I set my pre-screen to 9.8 (modern books), of the 30 submitted 20 made grade, so I obviously need to calibrate my eyes. Of the 20 that were slabbed, 19 have major indentations. The diameters range from about 3 to 6 inches across. While the fronts are beautiful the backs really do take away from the presentation. While I have no intention of selling any of these books anytime soon, if I bought a book off Ebay with these problems I would be disappointed. I'll contact CGC Monday to see what they can (or cannot) do. It seems pretty clear that the defect in the encapsulation process is here to stay until enough members demand better. If the push to improve turnaround times is killing quality, I am seriously willing to wait longer for a higher standard.

[MOStateSuperman]

Agreed.

Edited August 3, 2013 by MOStateSuperman

[Sqeggs]

I think its ugly and should be fixed permanently. We, the customers, are used to a smooth, unblemished surface on the inner well.

 

Will wait to hear what Joey finds out.

 

Did we ever hear back from him?

[Artboy99]

Do we know whether they are willing to accept returns on these? I know the official position is that it is just a cosmetic problem and the books aren't harmed by the indentations but I would think the indentations have to affect resale. As a buyer I would view the indentations the same way I would view a cracked slab.

 

what I dont understand is how they go from never having this problem for the longest time, to "this is the way the process is done" speech I was given.

 

My guess is that the plastic used for the inner well was changed in an effort to cut costs. Somehow it is thinner/ cheaper and therefore you get less quality.

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I'm curious whether the sealing method is sonic or thermal.

 

And if thermal, how much heat the book is exposed to in a process that "appears" to be warping/melting the inner well material.

[Hado]

How/where do they store the bulk stock of inner well's before they're used.

 

Perhaps it's an issue before they're even used.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Possibly, although I would assume we would probably be seeing the indentation occasionally show up on both sides of the inner well if this were the case.

 

It's pure speculation on my part, and with little to no information, but it "seems' to exhibit the characteristics of a process issue rather than a stock issue.

 

Maybe the people who have seen this issue can relate whether the indentation was repeatable (meaning seen in approximately the same location), and which side (front, back, or possibly both). The examples given so far appear to show only back side warping, which in my mind may point to a thermal issue with the jig that holds the bottom sheet prior to assembly and sealing. Again, just pure unadulterated speculation on my part.

[Tom473]

Of my 19 that exhibit the indentations, the placement on the back are highly random, some centered, other closer to top or bottom. Generally they are radial patterns, but not neatly symmetric. Some display a rippling pattern, similar to dropping a pebble in still water. A few are more hour glass shaped. One is particularly smaller, but quite pronounced, being so indented I am left to wonder if it will impact the comic itself over the years. I guess the good news is that if it damages the book, I'll be able to use CGC's new pressing service to repair the damage caused by their new encapsulation process. Well played CGC, well played.

[Tony S]

I'm curious whether the sealing method is sonic or thermal.

 

And if thermal, how much heat the book is exposed to in a process that "appears" to be warping/melting the inner well material.

 

Most likely - based on the properties of Barex plastic - it is a couple of seconds at 300-350 degrees.

[VintageComics]

I'm curious whether the sealing method is sonic or thermal.

 

And if thermal, how much heat the book is exposed to in a process that "appears" to be warping/melting the inner well material.

 

The process is sonic.

 

I think it has more to do with process than product and it could be as simple as a hand print on the back side of the inner holder when the sonic weld is being made.

 

 

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

I'm curious whether the sealing method is sonic or thermal.

 

And if thermal, how much heat the book is exposed to in a process that "appears" to be warping/melting the inner well material.

 

The process is sonic.

 

I think it has more to do with process than product and it could be as simple as a hand print on the back side of the inner holder when the sonic weld is being made.

 

 

Are you sure? The patent only makes reference to ultrasonic welding of the case, not the inner core, so I wasn't positive.

 

If the core (which contains the comic book) is sealed by ultrasonic welding, which would seem to preclude a thermal transfer issue in the sealing process, then I have a new theory (again, pure unadulterated speculation on my part ).

 

Since the core is formed of two pieces of semi-rigid plastic (called tray members), and the bottom tray member includes the depression for receiving the comic book, and since the warping defect appears to only be seen on the back side, it may be that the warping defect is caused from the process that creates the depression from a flat sheet of semi-rigid plastic. I assume the depression is formed with a mold that applies heat and pressure to create the shape seen below.

 

So, in other words, a problem with the creation of the bottom tray member, rather than a sealing issue.

 

[accessndx]

If the core (which contains the comic book) is sealed by ultrasonic welding, which would seem to preclude a thermal transfer issue in the sealing process, then I have a new theory (again, pure unadulterated speculation on my part ).

 

I'm no expert, nor am I disputing what you've said. But I wanted to chime in and just state that ultrasound is considered a thermal modality.

 

While ultrasound waves propagate through a medium, the amplitude of the wave is continually reduced or weakened with the distance it travels. This is known as attenuation and is due to the scattering or deflecting of energy signals as the wave propagates and the conversion of some of the energy to heat energy within the medium. A medium that changes the mechanical energy from the vibrations of the ultrasound energy into thermal or heat energy is called viscoelastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound_energy

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

If the core (which contains the comic book) is sealed by ultrasonic welding, which would seem to preclude a thermal transfer issue in the sealing process, then I have a new theory (again, pure unadulterated speculation on my part ).

 

I'm no expert, nor am I disputing what you've said. But I wanted to chime in and just state that ultrasound is considered a thermal modality.

 

While ultrasound waves propagate through a medium, the amplitude of the wave is continually reduced or weakened with the distance it travels. This is known as attenuation and is due to the scattering or deflecting of energy signals as the wave propagates and the conversion of some of the energy to heat energy within the medium. A medium that changes the mechanical energy from the vibrations of the ultrasound energy into thermal or heat energy is called viscoelastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound_energy

 

Sure. The attenuation mentioned is the reason I'm guessing that the sealing process is not the cause of the defect.

[VintageComics]

Yup. Sonic creates a very acute, very fast vibration and vibration = heat energy so ultimately it is thermal.

 

They just call it sonic welding to differentiate from actual heat welding.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

Here's the official update from Plitch (Paul) in the CG thread.

 

LINK

[Tom473]

Very glad to see that they acknowledge it as an issue and are working on it. It will be interesting to see if they can determine the cause of the apparent increase in number of books that display the O indentations (materials, equipment, etc.).

[Tom473]

Just contacted CGC about my 19 books that arrived with the defect. Paraphrased, but I'm typing this right after the call, to be as accurate as possible with no attempt to mischaracterize the answers I received.

 

Q: My 19 books have a wierd indentation defect on the back of the book, others have apparently been reporting the same issue, are you aware of this?

 

A: Yes, it is a problem with the manufacturer of the inner wells, we have contacted them and we are awaiting a response.

 

Q: What can be done for my books that already have the defect.

 

A: Nothing, because the defect does not impact your books themselves.

 

Q: Why are these cases making it through QC?

 

A: Because the books themselves are not damaged.

 

Q: Yes, but what if I sell one of these defective capsules and get a complaint, or hurt my feedback rating or buisiness in the process? (note I don't have a business, but it's a legit question)

 

A: The buyer can contact CGC and we will tell the same thing.

 

Well, there you have it. I'm taking a collector's strategic pause of sorts until CGC can restore quality standards to the pre-CGC case defect era. It would be good to nail down when the "O" defect manifested itself.

 

Minor grammar edit to Q2

Edited August 5, 2013 by Tom473

[accessndx]

I'll tell you what'd fix it lickety split: everyone stops slabbing things until they fix it.

They'd have a solution in less than 1 week guaranteed.

[Mark 1]

Just contacted CGC about my 19 books that arrived with the defect. Paraphrased, but I'm typing this right after the call, to be as accurate as possible with no attempt to mischaracterize the answers I received.

 

Q: My 19 books have a wierd indentation defect on the back of the book, others have apparently been reporting the same issue, are you aware of this?

 

A: Yes, it is a problem with the manufacturer of the inner wells, we have contacted them and we are awaiting a response.

 

Q: What can be done for my books that already have the defect.

 

A: Nothing, because the defect does not impact your books themselves.

 

Q: Why are these cases making it through QC?

 

A: Because the books themselves are not damaged.

 

Q: Yes, but what if I sell one of these defective capsules and get a complaint, or hurt my feedback rating or buisiness in the process? (note I don't have a business, but it's a legit question)

 

A: The buyer can contact CGC and we will tell the same thing.

 

Well, there you have it. I'm taking a collector's strategic pause of sorts until CGC can restore quality standards to the pre-CGC case defect era. It would be good to nail down when the "O" defect manifested itself.

 

Minor grammar edit to Q2

 

That is truly disappointing.