Okajima pedigree 25 25

[miraclemet]

On 2/15/2019 at 6:28 PM, path4play said:

Here are a couple of questions.

Within this very thread the story unfolded that there were three original buyers of about 1,200 comics, split evenly between them. Of the three buyers, 1/3rd landed in the hands of Alan Bahr who made Certificates of Authenticity (COA).  The other 1/3rd were sold by Ron Murry to numerous different lucky buyers (like Robot Man) at Con's up and down the West Coast in 1995/1996.  The final 1/3rd presumably is held tightly by a mystery buyer in a hoard not yet released to the public.

Question 1:  From the books and lists posted here in the thread, I estimate from coded date gaps there were probably about 180 copies with the sigs/dates (camp copies - did that term also originate here?).  That is only 15% of the total pedigree.  So, why don't we see more date stamped post-camp books come up for sale?  Even if only Alan Bahr's COA date stamped copies were selling as Okajima's there still should be 3x the number on the market vs. camp copies.

Question 2: How many owners of these camp copies in particular have or had an Alan Bahr COA associated with them?

 

 

Ok here are some answers. I've got the collection at 1100ish (maybe it got up to 1200. 

3 original buyers, none of whom were Alan Bahr. One of the three original buyers sold the majority of his original purchase (253 copies to be exact, followed by another 87 the following month for a total of 340) to Alan Bahr the same year as the original purchase. Alan picked up 29 more books from the 2nd original buyer (a paper dealer who frequented the Shrein convention). The paper dealer had already sold most of his share to various regulars of the convention. The third original buyer was another flea market dealer, but I dont think Alan got any books from him as the guy was a little unusual in his sales methods and he had sold them around California to various dealers and collectors but never allowed anyone to buy more than a few books. Ann additional 39 books were found by Alan at a  local comic store, which had purchased them from one of the original three buyers. 

 

So Alan then had 340+20+39, so 399 books in total. 

 

One thing Alan noticed was that his part of the collection (largely made from one of the original 3 buyers) was light on the early years of the collection (43-46) and heavier on the mid and late years ) 47-52 (at which point the collection dwindled in the final era 53-55). 

1. Its possible that the books were un-evenly distributed between the three buyers. They were bricked and wrapped, so they may have been "divvied" up still wrapped, or at least without consideration of one brick vs another, so one of the other two may have gotten more of the early books. 

2. Also his early books seemed to be in lesser grades than the ones he came across later in his searches, so did the original buyer just have bad luck or did one of the other dealers "pick" the better condition books? Is it possible that someone else picked books from the collection before the three way division at the estate sale? 

To the point of your numbers. 

The reason that there arent as many post-camp books coming up for sale is

1) they aren't valued as highly so there not the impetus to sell them or more importantly to find them. 

2) they are far more likely to be "undiscovered" in collections since their markings arent as blatant as the camp books and (besides the Bahr books) weren't sold with any certificates. These books were sold when pedigrees were still in flux in the market outside of the top line premium ones. And remember the Okajima collection is neither a) especially large, b)especially high grade or c)especially key filled (in fact I'd argue its one of the least key heavy pedigrees out there). And the camp hype only came along in the last 3 years, so these books had 20 years to get lost in collections. Odds are they are mixed in with peoples collections with no notation, and it's only as they come to market that people might notice the markings. As others have said you can come across a raw non-camp Okajima in auctions, ebay and occasionally at west coast shows because of these factors. 

And to answer your question about how many camp books have Bahr certificates: Based on his lists he had about 25 camp books from '44, another 8 from '43 and another 11 from '45 (not sure how the 43s and 45s were noted, I'd have to go through the list)

Edited February 24, 2019 by miraclemet

[skypinkblu]

4 hours ago, MrBedrock said:

The Thrilling is coded. If you look to the left of the "T" there is written an F over an 8 over a 12. That is some kind of distributors coding that is consistent with the later Okajimas. I didn't notice it when I was bidding (the ComicLink images were pretty small then) but it was pretty obvious when I got my hands on it. I got confirmation here from some boardies who were a little more versed in the codes.

Thank you, Richard! 

[skypinkblu]

1 hour ago, miraclemet said:

to me the fact that the k and a arent connected is a big red flag.

and while there are some lower grade issues in the pedigree they are usually due to defects associated with storage not defects due to reading...

the sensation 25 looks like it was read repeatedly and roughly... not wear you see in Okajimas 

Exactly, it's difficult for someone who connects their letters like most of the ones we see, to change to a space and starting the letter from the top, doing that  would be awkward. But the "m's" are also very different, there are sharper edges on the bottoms of the m on the 25 while the one on my book is more flowing and open. The "i" is different, too, the one on the #30 has a curve and a dot at the top, while the one on the 25 is straighter and has more of a dash, the direction is different and that's what important....and enough of that,  I feel like I'm back at work;) .

[path4play]

13 hours ago, miraclemet said:

Ok here are some answers. I've got the collection at 1100ish (maybe it got up to 1200. 

3 original buyers, none of whom were Alan Bahr. One of the three original buyers sold the majority of his original purchase (253 copies to be exact, followed by another 87 the following month for a total of 340) to Alan Bahr the same year as the original purchase. Alan picked up 29 more books from the 2nd original buyer (a paper dealer who frequented the Shrein convention). The paper dealer had already sold most of his share to various regulars of the convention. The third original buyer was another flea market dealer, but I dont think Alan got any books from him as the guy was a little unusual in his sales methods and he had sold them around California to various dealers and collectors but never allowed anyone to buy more than a few books. Ann additional 39 books were found by Alan at a  local comic store, which had purchased them from one of the original three buyers. 

 

So Alan then had 340+20+39, so 399 books in total. 

 

One thing Alan noticed was that his part of the collection (largely made from one of the original 3 buyers) was light on the early years of the collection (43-46) and heavier on the mid and late years ) 47-52 (at which point the collection dwindled in the final era 53-55). 

1. Its possible that the books were un-evenly distributed between the three buyers. They were bricked and wrapped, so they may have been "divvied" up still wrapped, or at least without consideration of one brick vs another, so one of the other two may have gotten more of the early books. 

2. Also his early books seemed to be in lesser grades than the ones he came across later in his searches, so did the original buyer just have bad luck or did one of the other dealers "pick" the better condition books? Is it possible that someone else picked books from the collection before the three way division at the estate sale? 

To the point of your numbers. 

The reason that there arent as many post-camp books coming up for sale is

1) they aren't valued as highly so there not the impetus to sell them or more importantly to find them. 

2) they are far more likely to be "undiscovered" in collections since their markings arent as blatant as the camp books and (besides the Bahr books) weren't sold with any certificates. These books were sold when pedigrees were still in flux in the market outside of the top line premium ones. And remember the Okajima collection is neither a) especially large, b)especially high grade or c)especially key filled (in fact I'd argue its one of the least key heavy pedigrees out there). And the camp hype only came along in the last 3 years, so these books had 20 years to get lost in collections. Odds are they are mixed in with peoples collections with no notation, and it's only as they come to market that people might notice the markings. As others have said you can come across a raw non-camp Okajima in auctions, ebay and occasionally at west coast shows because of these factors. 

And to answer your question about how many camp books have Bahr certificates: Based on his lists he had about 25 camp books from '44, another 8 from '43 and another 111 from '45 (not sure how the 43s and 45s were noted, I'd have to go through the list)

Thanks Miracle. I think this is the by far the most detail yet known.

 

[originalisbest]

On 2/16/2019 at 7:56 PM, miraclemet said:

this distributor mark is the give away for the later post camp era (theres also an earlier post camp era with a different distributon style mark)

As good a time as any to throw this out there -- here's my Space Detective #1, which I love, had it since '99. Any chance this marking could be that of a post-camp Okajima? Thanks for all opinions.

[path4play]

 

 

[jabats]

I just bought this from Rick.

Another Okajima Camp book that looks like "Okagima" in the signature. 

[jabats]

Quote

 

As good a time as any to throw this out there -- here's my Space Detective #1, which I love, had it since '99. Any chance this marking could be that of a post-camp Okajima? Thanks for all opinions. 

 

It doesn't look like any of the post-camp books I have. Mine are all marked "vertically" with the distributor marks. I'm not an expert though.

[Robot Man]

2 hours ago, jabats said:

I just bought this from Rick.

Another Okajima Camp book that looks like "Okagima" in the signature. 

Very cool book! Congrats! I remember seeing that one in the box when I bought  some from Ron. Just didn’t have the dough at the time to buy all the ones I wanted. 

[skypinkblu]

8 hours ago, jabats said:

I just bought this from Rick.

Another Okajima Camp book that looks like "Okagima" in the signature. 

Nice! I know he picked that up fairly recently, I don't remember if it was from Heritage or eBay but I know it had been on my watch list and I was hesitant because of the "g". Congrats on your new book, the more I look at it, the more I like it:) .

[adamstrange]

On 2/20/2019 at 4:15 PM, originalisbest said:

As good a time as any to throw this out there -- here's my Space Detective #1, which I love, had it since '99. Any chance this marking could be that of a post-camp Okajima? Thanks for all opinions.

It is not a typical distributor code for an Okajima.

[originalisbest]

On 2/24/2019 at 1:05 AM, adamstrange said:

It is not a typical distributor code for an Okajima.

I appreciate the clarity! It "rhymed" to me with another purportedly Okajima I saw, but probably wishful thinking. Interesting and too bad, that unless it's clearly a camp book, 2/3rds of the collection extant are mostly to definitely impossible to identify.

[skypinkblu]

5 hours ago, originalisbest said:

I appreciate the clarity! It "rhymed" to me with another purportedly Okajima I saw, but probably wishful thinking. Interesting and too bad, that unless it's clearly a camp book, 2/3rds of the collection extant are mostly to definitely impossible to identify.

If it helps, it's a great book! 

[originalisbest]

31 minutes ago, skypinkblu said:

If it helps, it's a great book! 

Thanks much! No worries about that on my end -- I think I got it back in '99, and it's been one of my most fave books since.

[SushiX]

bought this as a okajima:) 

[path4play]

7 hours ago, SushiX said:

bought this as a okajima:) 

Cool, by records I've compiled from this thread, the last known signed/coded book is coded "4x" from 9/13/44.

The first known date stamp is 10/10/44 (there is an earlier Fighting Yank #10 Okajima - the record is from GPA so no photo (aka unknown if signed or stamped).

There is also a date stamped the same day as your Blue Bolt, Shadow Comics #v4#9 [45] (Date Stamp 11/11/44).

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by path4play

[SushiX]

23 minutes ago, path4play said:

Cool, by records I've compiled from this thread, the last known signed/coded book is coded "4x" from 9/13/44.

The first known date stamp is 10/10/44 (there is an earlier Fighting Yank #10 Okajima - the record is from GPA so no photo (aka unknown if signed or stamped).

There is also a date stamped the same day as your Blue Bolt, Shadow Comics #v4#9 [45] (Date Stamp 11/11/44).

 

 

thank you for the info!

[EBE]

So are the boards saying that a comic that is date stamped from 1944 and has no other markings could be an Okajima??

Or does that Blue Bolt have other markings that aren't visible in the scan provided by SushiX that would confirm its pedigree?

--ElJay

[SushiX]

2 hours ago, path4play said:

Cool, by records I've compiled from this thread, the last known signed/coded book is coded "4x" from 9/13/44.

The first known date stamp is 10/10/44 (there is an earlier Fighting Yank #10 Okajima - the record is from GPA so no photo (aka unknown if signed or stamped).

There is also a date stamped the same day as your Blue Bolt, Shadow Comics #v4#9 [45] (Date Stamp 11/11/44).

 

 

is it normal to have 2 stamps Nov 11 44? mine has 1 on front cover and 1 on the back...

[path4play]

9 hours ago, EBE said:

So are the boards saying that a comic that is date stamped from 1944 and has no other markings could be an Okajima??

Or does that Blue Bolt have other markings that aren't visible in the scan provided by SushiX that would confirm its pedigree?

--ElJay

I'm only saying that the date and stamp "fits" into the realm of possibility given the date and timing. I presume other clues like page quality etc., would also be tell-tales.  Nothing short of a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) from the seller I guess would be a guarantee.  Unfortunately, as has been discussed here recently, the majority of copies probably don't have a COA.  That leaves the sellers word, he could probably add to the "provenance" by retelling whose hands it passed through.