Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice movie thread for your reading pleasure 2 2

[Gatsby77]

On 5/4/2023 at 8:04 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

When people forget that movies are motion pictures, for example, and that "style" is often substance itself. Or when someone cannot differentiate between a director, a writer, and an editor. Or criticizing a lack of subtlety despite missing all of the subtlety.

If someone hates a person they don't know simply for making movies they didn't like, there's something mentally wrong there.

Well-said and totally fair.

I, for one, don't hate Zack Snyder - he has an original style and I think he did as close to perfect adaptations of Watchmen and 300 as were possible.

That doesn't mean, however, that his vision for the DCEU wasn't both inane and poorly executed.

Man of Steel was solid through 80% - and *easily* the best Superman film since Superman II.

But the primary fault for the abject critical and commercial failures of BvS and Justice League lies squarely with him - not the editor, other writers or studio interference.

See also David Ayer - I was inclined to give him a lifetime pass for writing Training Day alone, but then he went and screwed up Suicide Squad in an impressive number of ways - which was *really* hard to do given the strength of the concept itself and the stories and storyboards provided by the first 30 issues or so of the '80s Ostrander run.

I'll still watch Ayer's work - especially other crime thrillers like End of Watch and Sabotage - but will remain forever mystified at how he so thoroughly sh88 the bed w/ Suicide Squad. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:02 AM, Gatsby77 said:

I, for one, don't hate Zack Snyder - he has an original style and I think he did as close to perfect adaptations of Watchmen and 300 as were possible.

That doesn't mean, however, that his vision for the DCEU wasn't both inane and poorly executed.

But the primary fault for the abject critical and commercial failures of BvS and Justice League lies squarely with him - not the editor, other writers or studio interference.

Then the post wasn't about you.

You can have that opinion, and I'm going to completely disagree.

This is purely false, though. We know for a fact that the studio butchered BvS with their Theatrical Cut, and Justice League's failures lay purely at the feet of Warner Bros, as ZSJL proves.

[Gatsby77]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:09 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Then the post wasn't about you.

You can have that opinion, and I'm going to completely disagree.

This is purely false, though. We know for a fact that the studio butchered BvS with their Theatrical Cut, and Justice League's failures lay purely at the feet of Warner Bros, as ZSJL proves.

That is my opinion - yes.

But it's not false, because you're presuming that the BvS Ultimate Edition and/or Justice League Snyder Cut are markedly better films.

They are each better than their respective theatrical versions, but remain absolute abominations to the characters depicted - and still *shockingly* mediocre.

I'd call them failures - thus the fault lies with Snyder himself - his vision and execution, even when given a few years (and $70 million more) to complete his version of Justice League.

As Elseworlds one-offs?

Cool, glad they exist and - as above, his vision and style is certainly...unique.

But as canonical depictions of Superman, Batman, and the rest of the Justice League - meant to lay the foundations for the DCEU?

Hot garbage.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:03 AM, Gatsby77 said:

But it's not false, because you're presuming that the BvS Ultimate Edition and/or Justice League Snyder Cut are markedly better films.

Yes, it is false, because neither the BvS Theatrical Edition nor Justice League were edits approved by Snyder. They're studio cuts.

Everything after this is opinion that most people disagree with.

[Bosco685]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:03 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Hot garbage.

A shame you've allowed yourself to dislike these movies so much, even facts would fail to sway your opinion.

BVS UE and ZSJL are not garbage. Nor are they director's cuts after-the-fact. They are the films intended. Other that the final Knightmare scene was the 5 minutes of 'reshoots' because Snyder felt this would be his last DC film. So he wanted the fans to experience an additional tease of the future.

[Gatsby77]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:15 AM, Bosco685 said:

A shame you've allowed yourself to dislike these movies so much, even facts would fail to sway your opinion.

BVS UE and ZSJL are not garbage. Nor are they director's cuts after-the-fact. They are the films intended. Other that the final Knightmare scene was the 5 minutes of 'reshoots' because Snyder felt this would be his last DC film. So he wanted the fans to experience an additional tease of the future.

What facts have I ignored?

I've watched both BVS UE and ZSJL (although not "Justice is Grey").

And I found them to be pretentious, poorly plotted and overstuffed - all of which are forgivable, mind you, if done well.

But those films' primary sins were in their terrible characterizations of Superman, Luthor, and Lois Lane (who was *so* well done in Man of Steel) - as well as the weak villains and laughable plots - that made these essentially "bad...but longer."

At the end of the day, it comes down to the writing for me - plotting, pacing and dialogue.

And these films (theatrical or "Director's Cuts" - as you refer to them) failed spectacularly on those marks.

[Bosco685]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:30 AM, Gatsby77 said:

What facts have I ignored?

I've watched both BVS UE and ZSJL (although not "Justice is Grey").

And I found them to be pretentious, poorly plotted and overstuffed - all of which are forgivable, mind you, if done well.

But those films' primary sins were in their terrible characterizations of Superman, Luthor, and Lois Lane (who was *so* well done in Man of Steel) - as well as the weak villains and laughable plots - that made these essentially "bad...but longer."

At the end of the day, it comes down to the writing for me - plotting, pacing and dialogue.

And these films (theatrical or "Director's Cuts" - as you refer to them) failed spectacularly on those marks.

If you say so.

[Gatsby77]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:30 AM, Gatsby77 said:

And I found them to be pretentious, poorly plotted and overstuffed - all of which are forgivable, mind you, if done well.

An example of when over-long, pretentious, poorly plotted and overstuffed is forgivable, because it's still well-done overall?

Return of the King - Extended Edition.

Nobody needed this 4+ hour long cut, but it was still a phenomenal movie even at that length.

 

[Bosco685]

For those that are open to truly reflecting on why the additional 30 minutes makes a difference, there are some good analysis videos on the topic. But you have to have more of an open mind, versus forcing yourself to dislike something no matter the reality.

 

And the extra 30 minutes changed a reviewer's mind that initially disliked the Theatrical Cut.

And later that same reviewer notes Zack Snyder's Justice League allowed for fleshing out the full story leading to caring about the characters and stories.

If you aren't into continuously spreading distractors why Zack Snyder is an evil cinema devil. 

[Bosco685]

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

One thing that used to bother me was people pretending to not understand Cavill's Superman. Dude performs selfless act after selfless act and you pretend to not know why he spends his free time with mostly just Mom and Lois? He has emotional batteries just like the rest of us.

[Bosco685]

Time to revisit BVS Ultimate Edition in 4K.

[davidpg]

BvS is still the best Batman movie made, period.  Unpopular opinion, I know

[Bosco685]

On 1/31/2024 at 5:01 PM, davidpg said:

BvS is still the best Batman movie made, period.  Unpopular opinion, I know

I had such a good time watching the Ultimate Edition the other night.

So much hate towards a really entertaining film.

[Bosco685]

Now that would be a cool poster on the wall