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CARL BARKS NEWSLETTER DIGITAL VIDEO TAPES THEO HOLSTIEN CB PAINTING COLLECTION
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42 posts in this topic

That's fair. I think it's also fair that the hobby component that was most interested in these painting has died or is dying off, and quickly now. Those that still have legs may not be interested anyway, what with the fine details of Medicare coverage being much more relevant on a daily basis, etc.

Something for the younger guys to consider is that these mostly/all digital guys today that do commissions or 1/1 physicals (after a digital 'original') on commission may have a similar market in 30-40 years. One where there is 'product' to collect but it's not really what the market wants. Everybody (now) will say "who cares about that far out" but I bet that's what these ancient Ducks collectors were saying in the 70s and 80s too!

Finally, with Geppi's deep interest (in the oils specifically) and now disinterest...such a highly controlled market, suddenly loosening up without the main cheerleader buying...that's what I was really getting at. Niche.

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Sure, I get your point.    Its just too bad all that pen and ink work wasn't saved.    I'd have to own a page or two if all 500+ stories were out there.    

Edited by Bronty
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15 hours ago, vodou said:

That's fair. I think it's also fair that the hobby component that was most interested in these painting has died or is dying off, and quickly now. Those that still have legs may not be interested anyway, what with the fine details of Medicare coverage being much more relevant on a daily basis, etc.

I think it was the Baby Boomers and maybe older Gen Xers that had the most interest in these Barks paintings; I see very little interest in these among my collecting cohort (mid-Gen X) and younger.  Not that they aren't cool; I seriously went after one of the better examples at one point just because I liked it, but, as my collecting interests narrowed over time, that interest proved to be a passing fancy.  I suspect that overall interest in these paintings has peaked on a secular basis. 2c 

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1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

I think it was the Baby Boomers and maybe older Gen Xers that had the most interest in these Barks paintings; I see very little interest in these among my collecting cohort (mid-Gen X) and younger.  Not that they aren't cool; I seriously went after one of the better examples at one point just because I liked it, but, as my collecting interests narrowed over time, that interest proved to be a passing fancy.  I suspect that overall interest in these paintings has peaked on a secular basis. 2c 

Yes Gene. I was thinking of myself when I wrote that.

I grew up with these Duck paintings being "a thing", perhaps even more than you. (I'm early GenX.) I even saw one of Geppi's big exhibits of them at one of Diamond's annual dealer events in 1993 or 94. So many all in one spot...truly overwhelming, in a good way. And Carl was here too for handshakes, autographs and hanging out with during cocktail hour!

When they were initially marketed, where the real heat in the market was, that was a decade+ before I was seriously collecting comics and another decade++ before I had any money to speak of, to spend on stuff. Whatever they were priced at in the 1970s (hot off Carl's easel, can be looked up in OPGs of the era) by the time I was able to buy, I was not able to afford. So I've never gotten into them in the way that one does when something is within reach, even if a stretch. That was then, I could now...but, shoot even $40k (for lesser content as noted by others), I can turn that into $80k in three years or less...in so many ways. Uh uh. Barks Ducks ain't happening for me. They are seriously cool, and seriously interesting. But -to me- not for more than $10k. Tops. That's the most (and not often either) I'll spend on "cool" these days, for something I'll end up keeping for a long time (because I like it) but have the sense that it will not particularly be beating COL/inflation during that period, probably will decline in real value, and has even questionable nominal salvage (fire-sale) value against (presumed) FMV.

I think Steve and the handful of other guys that hoarded these things...really screwed up the market for them. When they were "hot" nobody could get them, Carl was already retired from doing them, and if you tried to buy from a hoarder the only quotes were Donnelly-level madness. Guys like me and so many others...we just gave up and moved on with our lives. And so that moment and a half has passed and the heat is just...gone. Maybe Europe still eats them up though? I don't know, but I know they (Europe in general) have a deep love that may (possibly, eventually) outstrip America's.

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4 hours ago, vodou said:

 

I think Steve and the handful of other guys that hoarded these things...really screwed up the market for them. When they were "hot" nobody could get them, Carl was already retired from doing them, and if you tried to buy from a hoarder the only quotes were Donnelly-level madness. Guys like me and so many others...we just gave up and moved on with our lives. And so that moment and a half has passed and the heat is just...gone. Maybe Europe still eats them up though? I don't know, but I know they (Europe in general) have a deep love that may (possibly, eventually) outstrip America's.

Its nothing Steve or Theo or anyone else did that wasn't perfectly natural and the expected response in the prevailing conditions at the time.     They acted perfectly rationally as far as I know.

The issue (to the extent there is one) is not what the collectors of the paintings did or did not do.    There are larger forces at play.... decline in the popularity of disney books past the early Gen X cohort and most crucially the fact that the entire genre boils down to Barks and Rosa and neither of them is creating any longer.      Casually creating a masterpiece every month like Barks did is a lot to ask and so naturally no one else has been able to do it.     It requires an extremely compelling storyteller and those are in short supply.    Without that person however, the whole genre is in trouble and it is never good for the long term health of a genre when the entire genre boils down to a single creator because well, we all get old, we all stop working and the vacuum left when that person leaves may be too large to fill. 

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26 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Its nothing Steve or Theo or anyone else did that wasn't perfectly natural and the expected response in the prevailing conditions at the time.     They acted perfectly rationally as far as I know.

I feel that you're jumping at something here that I'm not suggesting, that these guys had a plan and by putting it into motion ruined things for everyone else? No. (If I even have that right?)

What I meant was the actions* (unintentional or otherwise) of a handful of people having most/all of these paintings had an unintended consequence. This dynamic has come up before in other contexts Dan, and you and I have generally agreed on the matter then, and I think we have the same result here too: no organic market, no depth, has grow up around this market sub-segment - they never traded freely enough for a large population of collectors to grow up around them. The consequence being that when, one or more leave the small circle if the rest do not take up the slack...whoosh. This has nothing to with the quality of the work, not what the market wants, but everything to do with an artificially elevated and maintained price.

Now a big speed bump in this theory is those overpriced (imo) Another Rainbow editions, portfolios, subscriptions, and books. The whole Bruce Hamilton machine. They could have, should have, produced an entire "next generation" of aspirational Barks Ducks original painting collectors...those that got the prints and other stuff, all they could afford at the time, but later perk up "again" when have the means to get the paintings. Why they aren't taking up the slack (unless they are the buyers of last resort at $40k, maybe?) I dunno. Maybe the generations didn't overlap at just the right pace for the switch to be seamless? Or maybe that "thing" just didn't take. Not everybody that picks up a coffee-table Picasso monograph at the museum store dreams of one day owning an oil. And then devotes their life to doing what it takes to make that a reality! Maybe those that bought into what Another Rainbow was selling, dropped their load then and there and that was the end of it.

 

* Trading them back and forth among themselves and only letting examples leave the circle for exorbitant sums unrartificiallyelated to any real organic market activity,

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5 minutes ago, vodou said:

I feel that you're jumping at something here that I'm not suggesting, that these guys had a plan and by putting it into motion ruined things for everyone else? No. (If I even have that right?)

What I meant was the actions* (unintentional or otherwise) of a handful of people having most/all of these paintings had an unintended consequence. This dynamic has come up before in other contexts Dan, and you and I have generally agreed on the matter then, and I think we have the same result here too: no organic market, no depth, has grow up around this market sub-segment - they never traded freely enough for a large population of collectors to grow up around them. The consequence being that when, one or more leave the small circle if the rest do not take up the slack...whoosh. This has nothing to with the quality of the work, not what the market wants, but everything to do with an artificially elevated and maintained price.

 

(thumbsu

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5 minutes ago, vodou said:

 

Now a big speed bump in this theory is those overpriced (imo) Another Rainbow editions, portfolios, subscriptions, and books. The whole Bruce Hamilton machine. They could have, should have, produced an entire "next generation" of aspirational Barks Ducks original painting collectors...those that got the prints and other stuff, all they could afford at the time, but later perk up "again" when have the means to get the paintings. Why they aren't taking up the slack (unless they are the buyers of last resort at $40k, maybe?) I dunno. Maybe the generations didn't overlap at just the right pace for the switch to be seamless? Or maybe that "thing" just didn't take. Not everybody that picks up a coffee-table Picasso monograph at the museum store dreams of one day owning an oil. And then devotes their life to doing what it takes to make that a reality! Maybe those that bought into what Another Rainbow was selling, dropped their load then and there and that was the end of it.

 

 

I think that they are some of the more collectible prints in our hobby, the bigger issue being that people collect comics or art but yeah prints never took off at all.    Early portfolios and that which cost a fair amount at the time, virtually all are close to worthless.

What is the most expensive comic artist portfolio out there?    Some early frazetta portfolio?    I wonder if the most expensive portfolio in existence could even touch the price of a Batman Adventures 12, you know?  :insane:

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2 hours ago, Bronty said:

I think that they are some of the more collectible prints in our hobby, the bigger issue being that people collect comics or art but yeah prints never took off at all.    Early portfolios and that which cost a fair amount at the time, virtually all are close to worthless.

What is the most expensive comic artist portfolio out there?    Some early frazetta portfolio?    I wonder if the most expensive portfolio in existence could even touch the price of a Batman Adventures 12, you know?  :insane:

Expensive today is s/n Frazetta, BWS, individual Dave Stevens prints, probably some others too. I wonder how many dollars were pulled away from comic art at SDCC way back in the 70s and 80s by all these various print endeavors? Very high opportunity cost the one over the other.

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32 minutes ago, vodou said:

Expensive today is s/n Frazetta, BWS, individual Dave Stevens prints

yeah but what are even those worth.    Less than a BA 12 I bet!    

Furthermore the most expensive Frazetta prints are the remarqued (sp?) ones no?    The owners there aren't so much paying $1000 (?) for a print as they are paying $250 for a print and $750 for the mini frazetta drawing on the print.

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1 hour ago, Bronty said:

yeah but what are even those worth.    Less than a BA 12 I bet!    

Furthermore the most expensive Frazetta prints are the remarqued (sp?) ones no?    The owners there aren't so much paying $1000 (?) for a print as they are paying $250 for a print and $750 for the mini frazetta drawing on the print.

Worth hundreds per each, no idea what a BA12 goes for - I'm uninterested in all of these items ;)

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On December 4, 2017 at 10:41 AM, Bronty said:

good point.    And checking out the sales on HA is quite interesting, there hasn't been a sale over the 100k mark since 2011, which is presumably when that key collector (forget his name now) stopped collecting.   

40k is probably a pretty decent result actually as the better ones seem to go for 60-70 now that were 100, 110 before

Kirby Coffer, the radio station owner, was the name you were looking for, there is an outstanding painting coming up on HA.com, animation art auction this month, it is a portrait painting of all the ducks, I think that should go for about 60-70 similar to the golden helmet which just sold on Ha.com. His work is inconsistent , but the really great stuff is amazing and I agree with Gene the comic book pages have come up in value primarily because not the greatest paintings  has come on the market, like the Coffer collection.

Edited by Mmehdy
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