Is Foom 2 a Prototype for Wolverine?

[joe_collector]

My recollection of this is the ads that Marvel ran for a month ran through *ALL* the titles they had that month.

 

No, like I said, your recollection is wrong. I looked through lots of those books and have only found 2 that had the Hulk 181 ad, and these were both early-month issues.

[Silverdream]

I see what you're saying but breaking it down to weekly release is probably splitting hairs when it comes down to the the release month.

 

Not really, as ASM 252 is universally accepted at the first appearance of the black costume, simply because it came out a week or two earlier than the other Spidey books.

 

You can also see on the Hulk 181 ad that it was on stands July 30, right at the end of the month. Hard to dispute that.

 

Joe, you have said this a few times about ASM 252 a few times now.

 

I was under the impression that, even though all books came out the same month and had the black costume in it, ASM 252 was the first by release DAY/WEEK which is why everyone agrees it is the 1st app. However, Marvel Team-up 141 came out the same exact day which is why CGC labels both of these books a tie, and does not include the other spiderman books from that month..because they came out in later weeks.

 

PPSSM 90 came out a week later.

 

Am I missing something here? They are both the first app right?

 

Collectors simply gravitate towards 252 because its the main title and the AF15 swipe.... correct??

 

This is a rarity, where there is a 1st appearance in two different books, release on the same exact day of the month. So its correct to say, either one is the first app?

[joe_collector]

CGC is wrong, they are just covering their butts because they have no definitive evidence that ASM 252 was first.

 

But any collector knows, and I can guarantee you that ASM 252 hit the shelves before MTU 141. It was a big deal back then, and people were speculating on it upon release, and it was only a bit later (maybe the same week, but not the same day) that MTU 141 came out.

 

You can read similar stories online, and any that I've read also has no doubt that ASM 252 was the first Spidey black costume book put up for sale.

[Silverdream]

CGC is wrong, they are just covering their butts because they have no definitive evidence that ASM 252 was first.

 

But any collector knows, and I can guarantee you that ASM 252 hit the shelves before MTU 141. It was a big deal back then, and people were speculating on it upon release, and it was only a bit later (maybe the same week, but not the same day) that MTU 141 came out.

 

You can read similar stories online, and any that I've read also has no doubt that ASM 252 was the first Spidey black costume book put up for sale.

 

Too bad there isnt a way to prove it outside of people recollections. Not digging at you, im just saying it would be nice to have physical proof. There should be some type of schedule listed somewhere, right? which books come in when and such.

 

Ive been collecting since 1988 so that was before my time, but i dont ever recall new books being shipped more than once a week. New comic day has been around for a while right? Then you wait for next week. If it was the same week, it makes sense it was the same day.

 

I am sure even back then 252 would have taken all the hype because its ASM and its an AF15 swipe. So even back then if it came out the same day, it could have taken 2nd fiffle ( you remember what you care about )

 

4 spidey books were out that month, it would make sense for each to come out a different week, however, so... who knows.

[joe_collector]

Too bad there isnt a way to prove it outside of people recollections.

 

Sure, but if enough people keep saying the same thing....

 

And while ASM was the more popular of the two, it's not like MTU was some weird indie book that flew under the radar. Had they both appeared on store shelves on exactly the same day, you would have had fanboys coming to blows over which one was better.

[rjrjr]

My recollection of this is the ads that Marvel ran for a month ran through *ALL* the titles they had that month.

 

No, like I said, your recollection is wrong. I looked through lots of those books and have only found 2 that had the Hulk 181 ad, and these were both early-month issues.

 

I think that is the case because the Wolverine in-house ad is on the letter page. When I made that statement, I failed to remember the letter pages were different for every book and laid out per title. I posted another response to this thread that hopefully explains things better.

[rjrjr]

CGC is wrong, they are just covering their butts because they have no definitive evidence that ASM 252 was first.

 

But any collector knows, and I can guarantee you that ASM 252 hit the shelves before MTU 141. It was a big deal back then, and people were speculating on it upon release, and it was only a bit later (maybe the same week, but not the same day) that MTU 141 came out.

 

You can read similar stories online, and any that I've read also has no doubt that ASM 252 was the first Spidey black costume book put up for sale.

 

Too bad there isnt a way to prove it outside of people recollections. Not digging at you, im just saying it would be nice to have physical proof. There should be some type of schedule listed somewhere, right? which books come in when and such.

 

Ive been collecting since 1988 so that was before my time, but i dont ever recall new books being shipped more than once a week. New comic day has been around for a while right? Then you wait for next week. If it was the same week, it makes sense it was the same day.

 

I am sure even back then 252 would have taken all the hype because its ASM and its an AF15 swipe. So even back then if it came out the same day, it could have taken 2nd fiffle ( you remember what you care about )

 

4 spidey books were out that month, it would make sense for each to come out a different week, however, so... who knows.

 

It could be wrong, but the Comic Vine shows the release date for Marvel Team Up on May 14, 1984. The release date for Amazing Spider-Man 242 is shown to be May 1, 1984. I don't know where the Comic Vine gets its data though. It is also suspect due to the dates not being exactly 2 weeks apart.

 

There is a site with the new comic release lists by week, but it only goes back to 2009: http://www.comiclistdatabase.com.

[joe_collector]

My recollection of this is the ads that Marvel ran for a month ran through *ALL* the titles they had that month.

 

No, like I said, your recollection is wrong. I looked through lots of those books and have only found 2 that had the Hulk 181 ad, and these were both early-month issues.

 

I think that is the case because the Wolverine in-house ad is on the letter page. When I made that statement, I failed to remember the letter pages were different for every book and laid out per title. I posted another response to this thread that hopefully explains things better.

 

My point is, that I'm not just talking about of my butt when I state things like this. Okay?

[rjrjr]

My recollection of this is the ads that Marvel ran for a month ran through *ALL* the titles they had that month.

 

No, like I said, your recollection is wrong. I looked through lots of those books and have only found 2 that had the Hulk 181 ad, and these were both early-month issues.

 

I think that is the case because the Wolverine in-house ad is on the letter page. When I made that statement, I failed to remember the letter pages were different for every book and laid out per title. I posted another response to this thread that hopefully explains things better.

 

My point is, that I'm not just talking about of my butt when I state things like this. Okay?

 

joe_collector, I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers. I'm just asking if the full page ads in Marvel comics for a particular month are the same across all the comics? In other words, if page 6 has an ad for Double Bubble in ASM, does the Daredevil title for that month also have a Double Bubble ad on page 6.

 

I've already acknowledge I was wrong about the Wolverine ad which appeared on the letter page in the Daredevil comic. I was inquiring about the full page ads in the comic books.

[MrWeen]

CGC is wrong, they are just covering their butts because they have no definitive evidence that ASM 252 was first.

 

But any collector knows, and I can guarantee you that ASM 252 hit the shelves before MTU 141. It was a big deal back then, and people were speculating on it upon release, and it was only a bit later (maybe the same week, but not the same day) that MTU 141 came out.

 

You can read similar stories online, and any that I've read also has no doubt that ASM 252 was the first Spidey black costume book put up for sale.

 

Too bad there isnt a way to prove it outside of people recollections. Not digging at you, im just saying it would be nice to have physical proof. There should be some type of schedule listed somewhere, right? which books come in when and such.

 

Ive been collecting since 1988 so that was before my time, but i dont ever recall new books being shipped more than once a week. New comic day has been around for a while right? Then you wait for next week. If it was the same week, it makes sense it was the same day.

 

I am sure even back then 252 would have taken all the hype because its ASM and its an AF15 swipe. So even back then if it came out the same day, it could have taken 2nd fiffle ( you remember what you care about )

 

4 spidey books were out that month, it would make sense for each to come out a different week, however, so... who knows.

 

It could be wrong, but the Comic Vine shows the release date for Marvel Team Up on May 14, 1984. The release date for Amazing Spider-Man 242 is shown to be May 1, 1984. I don't know where the Comic Vine gets its data though. It is also suspect due to the dates not being exactly 2 weeks apart.

 

There is a site with the new comic release lists by week, but it only goes back to 2009: http://www.comiclistdatabase.com.

 

i like comicvine for other reasons but you cannot always trust them when it comes first appearance accuracy.

[rjrjr]

CGC is wrong, they are just covering their butts because they have no definitive evidence that ASM 252 was first.

 

But any collector knows, and I can guarantee you that ASM 252 hit the shelves before MTU 141. It was a big deal back then, and people were speculating on it upon release, and it was only a bit later (maybe the same week, but not the same day) that MTU 141 came out.

 

You can read similar stories online, and any that I've read also has no doubt that ASM 252 was the first Spidey black costume book put up for sale.

 

Too bad there isnt a way to prove it outside of people recollections. Not digging at you, im just saying it would be nice to have physical proof. There should be some type of schedule listed somewhere, right? which books come in when and such.

 

Ive been collecting since 1988 so that was before my time, but i dont ever recall new books being shipped more than once a week. New comic day has been around for a while right? Then you wait for next week. If it was the same week, it makes sense it was the same day.

 

I am sure even back then 252 would have taken all the hype because its ASM and its an AF15 swipe. So even back then if it came out the same day, it could have taken 2nd fiffle ( you remember what you care about )

 

4 spidey books were out that month, it would make sense for each to come out a different week, however, so... who knows.

 

It could be wrong, but the Comic Vine shows the release date for Marvel Team Up on May 14, 1984. The release date for Amazing Spider-Man 242 is shown to be May 1, 1984. I don't know where the Comic Vine gets its data though. It is also suspect due to the dates not being exactly 2 weeks apart.

 

There is a site with the new comic release lists by week, but it only goes back to 2009: http://www.comiclistdatabase.com.

 

i like comicvine for other reasons but you cannot always trust them when it comes first appearance accuracy.

 

I had suspected as much.

 

In either case, my recollection is the same as joe_collector for whatever that is worth. ASM 252 did come out first and had heat immediately.

[divad]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: Marvel Team-Up.

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: Marvel Team-Up

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5313

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 114, Feb. 1982.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 141, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-24; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001328284

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: The Amazing Spider-Man / [Marvel Comics Group].

Title Qualifier: comic book

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: The Amazing Spider-Man

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5232

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 192, May 1979.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 252, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-10; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001319971

[jbud73]

[/img]

 

Well the MVS is still there so you may be in good shape - interesting discussion but I can't believe how far its gotten. IMO the Foom 2 depiction is pretty far removed from the Hulk 181 character.

[rjrjr]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: Marvel Team-Up.

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: Marvel Team-Up

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5313

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 114, Feb. 1982.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 141, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-24; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001328284

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: The Amazing Spider-Man / [Marvel Comics Group].

Title Qualifier: comic book

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: The Amazing Spider-Man

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5232

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 192, May 1979.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 252, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-10; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001319971

 

I've shown on another thread that the US Copyright office data is only as good as the data submitted to them. I've found several mistakes with their published date data.

[MrWeen]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: Marvel Team-Up.

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: Marvel Team-Up

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5313

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 114, Feb. 1982.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 141, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-24; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001328284

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: The Amazing Spider-Man / [Marvel Comics Group].

Title Qualifier: comic book

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: The Amazing Spider-Man

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5232

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 192, May 1979.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 252, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-10; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001319971

 

Personally I would prefer to own a Mark Jeweler cgc 9.8 of 141, it should also be coveted by Mignola fans.

[joe_collector]

My recollection of this is the ads that Marvel ran for a month ran through *ALL* the titles they had that month.

 

No, like I said, your recollection is wrong. I looked through lots of those books and have only found 2 that had the Hulk 181 ad, and these were both early-month issues.

 

I think that is the case because the Wolverine in-house ad is on the letter page. When I made that statement, I failed to remember the letter pages were different for every book and laid out per title. I posted another response to this thread that hopefully explains things better.

 

My point is, that I'm not just talking about of my butt when I state things like this. Okay?

 

joe_collector, I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers. I'm just asking if the full page ads in Marvel comics for a particular month are the same across all the comics? In other words, if page 6 has an ad for Double Bubble in ASM, does the Daredevil title for that month also have a Double Bubble ad on page 6.

 

[joe_collector]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Thanks for posting that, and I really have no idea where CGC got their "same week" misinformation, as it's been a long-standing comic fact that ASM 252 was on the shelves first. Just ask a dealer who had a store back then, ASM 252 was an instant hit, was speculated on, and even sold for above-cover at some stores.

[divad]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: Marvel Team-Up.

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: Marvel Team-Up

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5313

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 114, Feb. 1982.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 141, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-24; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001328284

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: The Amazing Spider-Man / [Marvel Comics Group].

Title Qualifier: comic book

Serial Publication Year: 1984

Serial Key Title: The Amazing Spider-Man

Imprint: New York : The Group.

ISSN: 0274-5232

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Description based on: Vol. 1, no. 192, May 1979.

Copyright Claimant: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation.

Authorship on Application: text & ill.: Marvel Comics Group, a division of Cadence Industries Corporation, employer for hire.

Issues Registered: v. 1, no. 252, May84. Created 1984; Pub. 1984-01-10; Reg. 1984-03-20; TX0001319971

 

I've shown on another thread that the US Copyright office data is only as good as the data submitted to them. I've found several mistakes with their published date data.

 

And, as I pointed out to you in that thread, you were wrong. This is a contemporaneous statement made and filed under the penalty of perjury, and would hold up in any court of law in the U.S.

[divad]

ASM #252 was published 2 weeks prior to MTU #141. From the US Copyright Office records:

 

Thanks for posting that, and I really have no idea where CGC got their "same month" misinformation, as it's been a long-standing comic fact that ASM 252 was on the shelves first. Just ask a dealer who had a store back then, ASM 252 was an instant hit, was speculated on, and even sold for above-cover at some stores.

 

You're welcome, Vince. Nice to see you back, and setting the record straight when appropriate. Many of the youngsters around here just don't get it when you tell them you know something, because you were actually THERE.

[rjrjr]

 

I've shown on another thread that the US Copyright office data is only as good as the data submitted to them. I've found several mistakes with their published date data.

 

And, as I pointed out to you in that thread, you were wrong. This is a contemporaneous statement made and filed under the penalty of perjury, and would hold up in any court of law in the U.S.

 

Divad:

 

I believe you agreed it could have been a clerical error on the part of someone at DC when they filed with the US Copyright office:

 

 

I'll use Batman Adventures 30 itself to illustrate the point about the Copyright registration database being unreliable. According to Diamond (from http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1995/1995-01Diamond.html), Batman Adventures 30 was released in January 1995:

 

116 Batman Adventures 30 $1.50 DC 32.2

 

And, according to the Copyright registration database, we have:

 

Type of Work: Serial

Title: The Batman Adventures.

Serial Publication Year: 1995

Description: print material.

Frequency: Monthly.

Publication History: [No.] 1, Oct. 1992-

Copyright Claimant: DC Comics, Inc.

Issues Registered: no. 29, Feb95. Created 1994; Pub. 1995-01-03; Reg. 1995-01-25; TX0003977103

no. 30, Mar95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-02-07; Reg. 1995-02-27; TX0003999859

no. 31, Apr95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-03-07; Reg. 1995-03-27; TX0003843164

no. 32, Jun95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-04-04; Reg. 1995-04-14; TX0004016765

no. 33, Jul95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-05-02; Reg. 1995-05-19; TX0004044581

no. 34, Aug95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-06-06; Reg. 1995-06-20; TX0004066705

no. 35, Sep95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-07-04; Reg. 1995-07-25; TX0004076866

no. 36, Oct95. Created 1995; Pub. 1995-08-01; Reg. 1995-09-01; TX0004129262

Basis of Claim: New matter: additions.

 

Names: DC Comics, Inc.

 

So, the book was distributed in January 1995 according to Diamond, but was published in February 1995 according to the Copyright registration database. I've seen other books off by as much as 3 months in the Copyright registration database when compared to the Diamond charts.

 

Definitely don't want to repeat this back and forth however. So, you can have the last word.

 

By the way, I'm not arguing ASM 252 did not come first. Just that the US Copyright registration database does have mistakes. And not for ASM 252 and MTU 141.