A-level panel page valuations by artist/run - thoughts/additions/changes? 5 5

[delekkerste]

I'd say that Kirby TOS is probably overvalued at $20-$40K; I only know of one non-splash that's gone in that range - but, hey, if someone wants to offer me that kind of money for my page, I'd at least think about it! Colan TOD is definitely overvalued at $3-5K (my guess is that only pages from 2-3 issues could reach that level). This may be controversial, but I'd say that McSpidey is debatable at $20-40K (I mean, we've seen covers, splashes and half-splashes sell for less recently, so are A panel pages a lock anymore for that bracket?) Miller DD is probably still more accurately reflected at $10-$20K (though is on the cusp for sure, as I know of several offers and completed deals in that range or even higher, though one might argue those were either the best A or even A+ pages; in any case, there haven't been any public sales in the next tier yet).

 

I'd be surprised if V is sustainable at $20-$40K; if one said those were solid A pages that sold in that range to 4 different buyers, that would be one thing, but "B+/A" pages selling in that range just tells me that someone(s) simply overpaid for those particular pages and that the transitive property (if those pages are worth X, then all true A pages must be worth that much or more) does not necessarily apply.

 

Simonson Thor...have we even seen any A-level pages trade hands lately? Are there even any true A-quality pages out of Walt's possession, or are we grading on a curve here? I don't know anything about the Darwyn Cooke market, but, is $3-5K really realistic for that market, or is that just a couple of highly motivated buyers and/or outlier sales? Just strikes me as high.

 

Actually, probably a few others in the $3-5K bracket are probably high - no doubt there are certain examples of all that could reach that range (same would be true of examples in the other brackets as well), but whether that's representative for your "typical" A page...not so sure. In any case, everybody has their little niches and know of certain transactions that would lead them to think (and/or want!) prices to be higher...it's not always easy to be completely dispassionate about our favorites, though.

 

Anyway, pretty impressive and mostly accurate list overall.

[Lago32]

Thanks for the Gene.

 

Regarding Kirby TOS, I know of three recent situations (1 offer and 2 sales) of A-level Kirby TOS panel pages in the $20-40k range. Keep in mind also that Albert had all of those Red Skull/Cosmic Cube pages for sale a little while back at strong prices and sold. My guess is that if some of the stronger pages from that book were to surface again for sale now, the prices would go for higher and thus be evenly more firmly within the range. I should mention that the range stated for Kirby TOS would largely be based on 2up sales.

[Nexus]

Agree with pretty much what everyone is saying (Gene, Hari, Scott, et al).

 

One problem here is that $20-40K is such a wide range. For example, I've heard of TOS sales in the low 20's, which would qualify it for this tier, but the range is then misleading. Same with McFarlane ASM...I'd be more comfortable putting it in the $10-20K range, even if there were a couple of sales in the 20's (and I'd argue that at least one of those was "A+" as far as panel pages go).

 

In fact, looking over the list so far, I'd say it'd be more accurate to list the majority of those as $20-30K.

[delekkerste]

One problem here is that $20-40K is such a wide range. For example, I've heard of TOS sales in the low 20's, which would qualify it for this tier, but the range is then misleading. Same with McFarlane ASM...I'd be more comfortable putting it in the $10-20K range, even if there were a couple of sales in the 20's (and I'd argue that at least one of those was "A+" as far as panel pages go).

 

In fact, looking over the list so far, I'd say it'd be more accurate to list the majority of those as $20-30K.

 

Totally agree - was thinking pretty much the same thing. There are a number of TOS panel pages that could reach the low $20Ks, but probably very few that could reach $30K+. And, my guess is that there are more A pages that are still in the teens than >$20K.

[stinkininkin]

One problem here is that $20-40K is such a wide range. For example, I've heard of TOS sales in the low 20's, which would qualify it for this tier, but the range is then misleading. Same with McFarlane ASM...I'd be more comfortable putting it in the $10-20K range, even if there were a couple of sales in the 20's (and I'd argue that at least one of those was "A+" as far as panel pages go).

 

In fact, looking over the list so far, I'd say it'd be more accurate to list the majority of those as $20-30K.

 

Totally agree - was thinking pretty much the same thing. There are a number of TOS panel pages that could reach the low $20Ks, but probably very few that could reach $30K+. And, my guess is that there are more A pages that are still in the teens than >$20K.

 

I agree that 20-40k is a big range and could use some adjustment. At the same time, I don't see how true grade A TOS panel pages could range from the teens to the 30k+ level as you suggest. That's too big a range for such narrowly focused conditions, unless you put a premium for certain inkers (Sinnott, Giacoia, Stone), but even then, I believe that's too wide a range if they are all grade A. And I assume we are only talking large art since there are so few small pages and none of them would even hit the high teens I believe.

 

Anybody want to take a stab at Kirby Thor pages?

 

Scott

 

Edited January 12, 2014 by stinkininkin

[comicsnyc22]

This is great!

[DeadpoolJr.]

One problem here is that $20-40K is such a wide range. For example, I've heard of TOS sales in the low 20's, which would qualify it for this tier, but the range is then misleading. Same with McFarlane ASM...I'd be more comfortable putting it in the $10-20K range, even if there were a couple of sales in the 20's (and I'd argue that at least one of those was "A+" as far as panel pages go).

 

In fact, looking over the list so far, I'd say it'd be more accurate to list the majority of those as $20-30K.

 

Totally agree - was thinking pretty much the same thing. There are a number of TOS panel pages that could reach the low $20Ks, but probably very few that could reach $30K+. And, my guess is that there are more A pages that are still in the teens than >$20K.

 

I agree that 20-40k is a big range and could use some adjustment. At the same time, I don't see how true grade A TOS panel pages could range from the teens to the 30k+ level as you suggest. That's too big a range for such narrowly focused conditions, unless you put a premium for certain inkers (Sinnott, Giacoia, Stone), but even then, I believe that's too wide a range if they are all grade A. And I assume we are only talking large art since there are so few small pages and none of them would even hit the high teens I believe.

 

Anybody want to take a stab at Kirby Thor pages?

 

Scott

That one seems to be all over the place. It looks like the regular price paid is between 2k-6k, nicer panels in the A range from 7k to a little over 10k, and then you have one, page that went for a little over 65k, but that was do to it being the first Thor appearance in JIM 83. I got this of past auction sales on Heritage in a few minutes, so I'm sure I'm wrong on a lot of this though.

[drdroom]

Strictly Grade A Kirby Fourth World, Demon, Kamandi pages can top 3K, and also '70s Cap pages.

[mtlevy]

This is interesting list - and agree people may find it 'annoying' but should help folk learn a bit about different markets....would be nice to add some type of typical distribution of what A+ vs. A vs. B vs. C looks like.

 

This varies by artist/title to an extent but would help people interpret this list, and not get carried away when the more typical pages pop up - if someone has time they could provide some illustrations on public sales of A, B, C pages for some of the rows to help make the distinction

 

Thinking something like this....

A+ = Top 2% of all pages for the line in question - 'Stupid Money'

A = Top 10% (~ 2 pages / issue) - 100% of value range listed

B = Next 30% (~ 6 pages / issue) - 40% +/-5% of value

C = Next 40% (~ 8 pages / issue) - 20% +/- 5%

D = Next 20% (~ 4 pages / issue) - 10% +/- 5%

 

Above is more a template for the group to iterate on..the ranges should be fairly tight as the row $ ranges are already wide ($5 - 10K)

 

Mark

 

P.S. Kirby FF could be broken up by 2X or not

[Lago32]

Re Kirby JIM A-level panel pages, I think $10-15k is realistic. There were a number of really solid Stone-inked A-level JIM pages that sold across Clink and Heritage late 2012 into 2013 that were in that range. At $7-10k I think we are talking about B-B+ level examples.

[Lago32]

Updated with some suggested changes including breaking out the $20-40k range. Further thoughts?

 

$40k and higher

 

Kirby Fantastic Four 2up

Ditko Spidey

Bolland Killing Joke

Miller Dark Knight Returns

 

$30-40k

 

Romita Sr Spidey 2up

Frazetta Creepy (Werewolf)

McFarlane Spidey

 

$20-30k

 

McFarlane Spidey

Byrne X-men

Gibbons Watchmen

Wood Daredevil

Kirby Tales of Suspense/Avengers

Steranko X-men/Other

Miller Daredevil

 

$10-20k

 

Wrightson Swamp Thing

Miller Daredevil/Ronin/Wolverine/Sin City

Romita Spidey small-art

Neal Adams Batman/X-men

Kane/Sprang Batman 2up

Cockrum X-men 1st run

John Buscema Silver Surfer

BWS Conan

Frazetta Thun’da/Others

Kirby/Stone Journey into Mystery/X-men 2up

Bolland Judge Dredd

Totleben Miracleman

McKean Arkham Asylum

Lloyd V for Vendetta

Kieth Sandman

Dringenberg Sandman

Kirby FF small-art

 

$5-10k

 

Totleben Swamp Thing

Swan Superman 2up

Kubert Hawkman/War Art 2up

Sekowsky JLA 2up

Perez Avengers 1st run

Mignola Hellboy

Buscema Avengers 1st run

Marshall Rogers Detective

Neal Adams Deadman/Green Lantern/Avengers

Mazzucchelli Daredevil Born Again

Starlin Captain Marvel and related

Colan Daredevil

Alex Ross Marvels/Kingdom Come

Michael Golden Dr.Strange/Avengers Annual

BWS Weapon X

Jim Lee Hush/X-men

Swan/Perez Superman Man of Tomorrow

Kaluta Shadow

Byrne Fantastic Four/Iron Fist

Tony Moore Walking Dead

Zeck Spidey Kraven Last Hunt

Gibbons Superman Annual 11

Bachalo Sandman

Kelley Jones Sandman

Sienkiewicz Elektra Assassin

Simonson Thor (Simonson inks)

 

$3-5k

 

Infantino Flash 2up

Gil Kane Atom/Green Lantern 2up

Perez New Teen Titans/Crisis/Infinity Gauntlet

Art Adams Longshot/X-men Annual

Ploog Werewolf by Night/Ghost Rider

Aparo Batman 1970’s

Layton Iron Man

Mike Zeck Captain America

Michael Turner Superman/Batman

Cockrum X-men 2nd run

Paul Smith X-men

Dillon Preacher

Adlard Walking Dead

Kirby Cap 2nd run/DC work

[heartened]

Looks like Miller DD is there twice now. Would agree to keep it in the higher bracket, and leave Ronin/Wolverinie/SinCity in the lower one. McFarlane Spidey is there twice now too. I would separate McFarlane Spidey/MarvelTales in the lower bracket, and McFarlane ASM in the higher one.

 

Regarding Mark's breakdown, I strongly disagree with the price discrepancies there. These are all important artists, and important artists the spread between A pages and C pages is more like 100% and 50%. It is hard for pages to drop below that level. The premium for A+ ranges from 30% to 100% of the A price, so I would write that there and not say "stupid money". Very few people are offering more than double FMV on art that is already expensive. That may have been true back in the day, but not anymore. There was a time I was paying triple FMV to pry something loose. Those days, sadly, are long gone.

 

I still think A level Wrightson ST examples are over 20K. I have not seen one for sale for a long time, but B pages are routinely selling for 15K. How can the A pages not be over 20K if one were to come up?

 

 

 

 

[heartened]

Oops, just saw Mark's qualification. He is talking about percent WITHIN the range, whereas I was talking percent of the HIGH part of the range. I think it's easier to do it the way I'm doing it, as no one is going to memorize these ranges, just where the peak is.

 

[Lago32]

Those suggestions makes sense but a little hesitant to bump up Wrightson. Not that I disagree but I just haven't seen any public sales or heard of any private sales (once again of A-level panel pages) above the $20k mark. I do think it is imminent though.

 

Updated:

 

$40k and higher

 

Kirby Fantastic Four 2up

Ditko Spidey

Bolland Killing Joke

Miller Dark Knight Returns

 

$30-40k

 

Romita Sr Spidey 2up

Frazetta Creepy (Werewolf)

McFarlane ASM

 

$20-30k

 

McFarlane Spider-man/Marvel Tales

Byrne X-men

Gibbons Watchmen

Wood Daredevil

Kirby Tales of Suspense/Avengers

Steranko X-men/Other

Miller Daredevil

 

$10-20k

 

Wrightson Swamp Thing

Miller Ronin/Wolverine/Sin City

Romita Spidey small-art

Neal Adams Batman/X-men

Kane/Sprang Batman 2up

Cockrum X-men 1st run

John Buscema Silver Surfer

BWS Conan

Frazetta Thun’da/Others

Kirby/Stone Journey into Mystery/X-men 2up

Bolland Judge Dredd

Totleben Miracleman

McKean Arkham Asylum

Lloyd V for Vendetta

Kieth Sandman

Dringenberg Sandman

Kirby FF small-art

 

$5-10k

 

Totleben Swamp Thing

Swan Superman 2up

Kubert Hawkman/War Art 2up

Sekowsky JLA 2up

Perez Avengers 1st run

Mignola Hellboy

Buscema Avengers 1st run

Marshall Rogers Detective

Neal Adams Deadman/Green Lantern/Avengers

Mazzucchelli Daredevil Born Again

Starlin Captain Marvel and related

Colan Daredevil

Alex Ross Marvels/Kingdom Come

Michael Golden Dr.Strange/Avengers Annual

BWS Weapon X

Jim Lee Hush/X-men

Swan/Perez Superman Man of Tomorrow

Kaluta Shadow

Byrne Fantastic Four/Iron Fist

Tony Moore Walking Dead

Zeck Spidey Kraven Last Hunt

Gibbons Superman Annual 11

Bachalo Sandman

Kelley Jones Sandman

Sienkiewicz Elektra Assassin

Simonson Thor (Simonson inks)

 

$3-5k

 

Infantino Flash 2up

Gil Kane Atom/Green Lantern 2up

Perez New Teen Titans/Crisis/Infinity Gauntlet

Art Adams Longshot/X-men Annual

Ploog Werewolf by Night/Ghost Rider

Aparo Batman 1970’s

Layton Iron Man

Mike Zeck Captain America

Michael Turner Superman/Batman

Cockrum X-men 2nd run

Paul Smith X-men

Dillon Preacher

Adlard Walking Dead

Kirby Cap 2nd run/DC work

 

[delekkerste]

I agree that 20-40k is a big range and could use some adjustment. At the same time, I don't see how true grade A TOS panel pages could range from the teens to the 30k+ level as you suggest. That's too big a range for such narrowly focused conditions, unless you put a premium for certain inkers (Sinnott, Giacoia, Stone), but even then, I believe that's too wide a range if they are all grade A. And I assume we are only talking large art since there are so few small pages and none of them would even hit the high teens I believe.

 

I think most A-level twice-up TOS panel pages would range from mid-teens to low-$20Ks. Exceptional A and A+ pages could be higher, but my feeling is that they are not representative of, say, the "median" A-level page valuation, which is what I think this list should be aiming for to provide the most usefulness.

 

That's also why I think saying that Miller DD and McSpidey (why is "Marvel Tales" listed there as well? Did he even do any interiors? If he did, surely these are not $30K when covers have been selling for not much more?) are $20-30K is being overly generous. Yes, there are examples of Miller DD that have sold there and higher, but those are few and very exceptional; nothing has traded publicly above even $20K and I think we're jumping the gun by saying the median A page is in that bracket (same could be said for a number of others here). I think Mike is wise in leaving Wrightson ST in the $10-$20K range, even though I actually do know of data points that could be used to justify a tier higher, because that next level has yet to be proven as representative and indicative of the median "A" level page valuation - comps and data points are just starting points for good analysis.

[buttock]

Looks like Miller DD is there twice now. Would agree to keep it in the higher bracket, and leave Ronin/Wolverinie/SinCity in the lower one. McFarlane Spidey is there twice now too. I would separate McFarlane Spidey/MarvelTales in the lower bracket, and McFarlane ASM in the higher one.

 

Regarding Mark's breakdown, I strongly disagree with the price discrepancies there. These are all important artists, and important artists the spread between A pages and C pages is more like 100% and 50%. It is hard for pages to drop below that level. The premium for A+ ranges from 30% to 100% of the A price, so I would write that there and not say "stupid money". Very few people are offering more than double FMV on art that is already expensive. That may have been true back in the day, but not anymore. There was a time I was paying triple FMV to pry something loose. Those days, sadly, are long gone.

 

I still think A level Wrightson ST examples are over 20K. I have not seen one for sale for a long time, but B pages are routinely selling for 15K. How can the A pages not be over 20K if one were to come up?

 

 

 

 

The only possible "A" pages I've seen within the past two years went for $18K & change and the other was asking $17.5K, not sure what it went for. There were a couple of pages on Heritage that were B-C which didn't break $10K, and another on Hakes that was under $12K that was B-B+. A couple of those went to Burkey and one traded for $12.5. I think most A pages would fall into the $15-20K range at auction.

 

 

[delekkerste]

Similarly, just because an A+ Paul Smith page from UXM #173 sells for $9,500 doesn't mean that suddenly all his A pages are close to $10K. An "A" page from all but 2-3 issues is going to sell for sub-$5K, which is why the $3-5K classification for the typical/median A example makes a lot of sense. I think most of these classifications are pretty accurate, but I think others are getting the benefit of the doubt based on a few datapoints that might not be truly representative of the median valuation.

[lb jefferies]

I think any list like this is fraught with perception problems. Wouldn't it make more sense to create a low/medium/high price "guide" for all pages?

 

So Kirby twice up FF would be more like $6K/$15K/$40K.

 

If I was a newbie to the hobby seeing A+ FF twice up pages listed at $40K+ would scare the out of me.

 

 

[lb jefferies]

...but I think others are getting the benefit of the doubt based on a few datapoints that might not be truly representative of the median valuation.

This

[Lago32]

With this list more than once I've had to second guess myself whether the range is speculative or based on multiple known data-points as I have tried to keep it to the latter. In thinking more about the Miller DD, I think for now it should stay in the $10-20k range for now for this reason. Similar to Wrightson Swamp Thing, I think A-level examples of Miller DD will start to command $20k+ prices, when/if it comes to market. Unfortunately (for me), it rarely does.

 

Updated:

 

$40k and higher

 

Kirby Fantastic Four 2up

Ditko Spidey

Bolland Killing Joke

Miller Dark Knight Returns

 

$30-40k

 

Romita Sr Spidey 2up

Frazetta Creepy (Werewolf)

McFarlane ASM

 

$20-30k

 

McFarlane Spider-man

Byrne X-men

Gibbons Watchmen

Wood Daredevil

Kirby Tales of Suspense/Avengers

Steranko X-men/Other

 

$10-20k

 

Wrightson Swamp Thing

Miller DD/Ronin/Wolverine/Sin City

Romita Spidey small-art

Neal Adams Batman/X-men

Kane/Sprang Batman 2up

Cockrum X-men 1st run

John Buscema Silver Surfer

BWS Conan

Frazetta Thun’da/Others

Kirby/Stone Journey into Mystery/X-men 2up

Bolland Judge Dredd

Totleben Miracleman

McKean Arkham Asylum

Lloyd V for Vendetta

Kieth Sandman

Dringenberg Sandman

Kirby FF small-art

 

$5-10k

 

Totleben Swamp Thing

Swan Superman 2up

Kubert Hawkman/War Art 2up

Sekowsky JLA 2up

Perez Avengers 1st run

Mignola Hellboy

Buscema Avengers 1st run

Marshall Rogers Detective

Neal Adams Deadman/Green Lantern/Avengers

Mazzucchelli Daredevil Born Again

Starlin Captain Marvel and related

Colan Daredevil

Alex Ross Marvels/Kingdom Come

Michael Golden Dr.Strange/Avengers Annual

BWS Weapon X

Jim Lee Hush/X-men

Swan/Perez Superman Man of Tomorrow

Kaluta Shadow

Byrne Fantastic Four/Iron Fist

Tony Moore Walking Dead

Zeck Spidey Kraven Last Hunt

Gibbons Superman Annual 11

Bachalo Sandman

Kelley Jones Sandman

Sienkiewicz Elektra Assassin

Simonson Thor (Simonson inks)

 

$3-5k

 

Infantino Flash 2up

Gil Kane Atom/Green Lantern 2up

Perez New Teen Titans/Crisis/Infinity Gauntlet

Art Adams Longshot/X-men Annual

Ploog Werewolf by Night/Ghost Rider

Aparo Batman 1970’s

Layton Iron Man

Mike Zeck Captain America

Michael Turner Superman/Batman

Cockrum X-men 2nd run

Paul Smith X-men

Dillon Preacher

Adlard Walking Dead

Kirby Cap 2nd run/DC work